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You be the ref... was this an escape?


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132: Consolation 1st Round - Drake Rhodes (Homestead) vs. Jack Tolin (Chesterton)

 

First, let me disclose, I am Drake's coach. The purpose of this post is not to stir the pot or call out a referee. Personally, I would just like to discuss the position and see if I am missing something. Tolin is a great wrestler, he took us down in overtime and I am not taking anything away from him.

 

Here is the link: http://s500.trackwrestling.com/tw/VideoPlayer.jsp?TIM=1456150243381&twSessionId=bgpjgulmnikbnpt&matchId=3990354104

 

I believe you will need the subscription/pass code to view it. You can fast forward to about the 6:30-6:35 mark of the video.

 

The match ended 6-5 with Rhodes as the winner. The Chesterton coach approached the table and then the head ref consulted with the assistant ref. After the consultation, they awarded Tolin with 1 pt for the escape making it 6-6 and sending it to OT. Then, I approached the table to ask for an explanation. He told me they already consulted and the decision was made. That's fine, I understand that, I was just wondering what you discussed that changed the call. He said that Rhodes lost control. I asked how that was possible if we were still locked in the crotch and the wrestler's head was still underneath our chest. All he said was "I agreed with my assistant".

 

Now, I could see if Tolin grabs the far ankle and gets us to our hip, maybe a reversal. This position, to me, seems similar to when the offensive wrestler in the top position, comes out front and has the defensive wrestler in a front headlock. If the bottom man does not break that position, creating a loss of control from the offensive wrestler, no escape is rewarded. 

 

Again, I am not a ref and I could be misunderstanding the rule. Your input is appreciated.

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This is the position we ended up in for about the last 20 seconds.  At no time did his head pop out.  There was one moment where Drake did not have the far leg but there was never any separation, his head was still tucked, and he was not behind.  The match ended in almost this exact position.  We know you have to take it out of the refs hands but it is pretty hard to tell that to the kids relatives when you don't have an explanation for it. We accept the loss no matter what but in all honesty I want to know if we are wrong for thinking this was not the right call.

Rhodes.jpg

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Most refs will not award an escape if the wrestler in control maintains both hands around the leg tight. If the hands come off or are just loosely holding on at any point then the ref will usually "hold" the escape until the situation ends in case a reversal happens. Even if the offensive wrestler regains control of the leg the escape is still usually given unless the offensive wrestler regains complete control.

 

These are obviously tough situations as kids are getting better and better at scrambling.

 

And I am not giving my opinion as to whether or not the escape should have been called but rather just offering some insight as to how these situations get called. Hope it helps a little.

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At the end of the day, nothing can be changed about the result of this match. Both boys wrestled well, and it simply came down to what the ref saw.

We know that, we have been wrestling and coaching long enough to know when the hand is raised it is over. We are honestly looking for a true ruling. If it is a escape we will argue this for my wrestlers in the future. If it is not then we want to correctly argue this ruling in the future if it happens again. Maybe it will help someone else also.

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I really don't want to give an opinion as to what this was or wasn't. What I will say is that it is in the judgement of the official. Thus no matter which way is ultimately ruled it is correct. And in regards to what to do in the future - you should always question & argue calls such as this for your wrestler, but I don't believe there is anything anyone can tell you that would result in every official coming to the same conclusion.

 

If I were you, I would have argued that the defensive wrestler never got to his feet &/or created any separation to justify the awarded escape. If I were the opposing coach, I would argue that the offensive wrestler lost control. Both arguments have validity.

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The call was made, the wrestlers decided the winner. If the official determined that their was loss of control, I see no problem in letting them duke it out in overtime.

Do you think I am kidding about wanting to know the actual ruling on this?  Please don't respond with philosophical opinions on how the situation should be handled after the fact.  I want opinions on what the ruling really should be here.  There should not be a grey area.  If there is then we need have the rule defined better possibly with pictures.  So far the general opinion has been that this is an opinion call.  Is that really the way it should be?

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Horrible! Especially the way it went down! The match was over and anklets were off, and then to have a coach challenge and get it on a really a bad call (questionable at best) was shocking to all that were there! Robbery for sure...someone call the police!

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Do you think I am kidding about wanting to know the actual ruling on this?  Please don't respond with philosophical opinions on how the situation should be handled after the fact.  I want opinions on what the ruling really should be here.  There should not be a grey area.  If there is then we need have the rule defined better possibly with pictures.  So far the general opinion has been that this is an opinion call.  Is that really the way it should be?

I will say this just based purely on what I have seen in the past.

 

I have seen a wrestler on bottom get the top wrestlers legs, face him, and lift the top wrestler completely into the air for about 2 seconds and the buzzer sounded as the top wrestler was being returned to the mat. No escape was awarded. The referee said since there was no separation, then there was no escape, and the outside referee agreed. It was one of the more ridiculous calls I have ever seen, but it was made none the less.

 

If the scenario I just described was not an escape, then there is no way the situation I watched in your wrestlers video was an escape...

 

Hope this helps...

Edited by NavyGonzo
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We had issues in the past with this take down call and then the coaches complained enough that they put it in the rule book. Can we try to do the same for this situation? (Not that we haven't had this one still called wrong)

SnipTakeDown.jpg

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No way is that an escape. Way too many ref wrong decisions deciding matches. I started a post after semi state about an official and post was taken down. These kids work way too hard to get this far only to be screwed. We need more consistency, and better definition of how matches are going to be called!!

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Nothing drives me more mad than calls after the match is over. It happened to us 2 years ago in the 3rd place match. When we questioned we were told that the scoring was "obvious", well call it on the mat and give my guy a chance to respond on the mat. Don't wait and lead my wrestler to believe that the score is different. 

 

Also side ref's rarely overturn main officials, not sure if that's in the ref's Brotherhood of Conduct book or what. There's a reason that there's two refs out there, not to give high fives and back each other up, but to have legit have discussions and make calls w/ 4 eyes. 

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Do you think I am kidding about wanting to know the actual ruling on this?  Please don't respond with philosophical opinions on how the situation should be handled after the fact.  I want opinions on what the ruling really should be here.  There should not be a grey area.  If there is then we need have the rule defined better possibly with pictures.  So far the general opinion has been that this is an opinion call.  Is that really the way it should be?

Coach,

 

I really am not trying to upset you, and I will agree that most if not all unbiased wrestling fans would say that the call was not a good one. And it is very unfortunate when it happens at a level of this magnitude.

 

But the point that I was trying to make earlier is that I just don't think there is anything anyone can tell you that will result in you &/or anyone else now having a clear cut understanding (with absolutely no gray area) on what the ruling is &/or should be. No matter what changes are made &/or wording and pictures that are used, there is always going to be different interpretations between different people. That does not mean that changes &/or clarifications are not justified, just that the expectation to clear this up beyond all doubt is not achievable.

 

What I will suggest, that may not be real popular in certain circles, is that what is truly needed here is not rule changes but more/better training of the officials. But realize that this is much easier said than done, and it would not completely resolve the issue of "gray area" either.

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Coach,

 

I really am not trying to upset you, and I will agree that most if not all unbiased wrestling fans would say that the call was not a good one. And it is very unfortunate when it happens at a level of this magnitude.

 

But the point that I was trying to make earlier is that I just don't think there is anything anyone can tell you that will result in you &/or anyone else now having a clear cut understanding (with absolutely no gray area) on what the ruling is &/or should be. No matter what changes are made &/or wording and pictures that are used, there is always going to be different interpretations between different people. That does not mean that changes &/or clarifications are not justified, just that the expectation to clear this up beyond all doubt is not achievable.

 

What I will suggest, that may not be real popular in certain circles, is that what is truly needed here is not rule changes but more/better training of the officials. But realize that this is much easier said than done, and it would not completely resolve the issue of "gray area" either.

No worries.  That comment was not directed to you.  I appreciated your input. 

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