2016 Junior National Dual Team

[warsawwrestling]

You're right. This should have been publicized sooner. Wait. It was! Coach Hull posted about this months ago where it was discussed. There was some resistance as you thought there'd be. Don't tell him to get his crap together when he is trying to represent the ISWA, provide information, communicate with some back-and-forth discussion, and make Indiana wrestling better.

I can tell him whatever I want!  I pay my dues to ISWA, USA, AAU, Bronze level certified for 22 years, 5 years in the army, finishing up my masters degree (at Indiana Tech), and 25 plus years in wrestling.  I think I have earned my right to voice my opinion! You have the right to listen, don't listen, read it, don't read it, shove it, eat it or respond back to it. Pick one. I also have done all the above......represent the ISWA (as a coach and a wrestler), provide information, communicate with some back-and-forth discussion and make Indiana wrestling better.   Wasn't aware it was posted months ago, but if it would have been sent out to all ISWA Coach card members (member Id # 97800201) or ISWA participant card members (son has that one in his wallet) than I would have been aware of the change! 

 

Side note I really don't have a beef with Coach Hull, I just disagree about some of these limitations and rules on Freestyle/Greco for many reasons that have been said over and over.  I personal don't know him (have met him a few times) my son says he's a great guy and I am not debating his character. I withdrawal a lot of the personal call outs toward him and if I offended him I am truly sorry, he does a lot for wrestling in the state of Indiana and USA, that is not arguable. Further more anyone in the state that is involved, helps or does any positive for wrestling I cannot hold a grudge against either, even though I might not agree with them (ask Joe, class wrestling sucks).I understand he is in a no win situation, but little to no communication about things are worse than usually the things themselves. 

 

Change is change and sometimes you need to do it in order to improve things and sometimes it doesn't work the way you thought it would.  I feel ISWA in putting forth change in more of an employer - employee way, instead of a product - customer way.  In an employer - employee way you get paid, which gives you a reason to follow the change. If you don't like it you go work somewhere else.  In a product - customer view you seek the opinion of the masses and combine it with future ideas to improve growth, if the customer likes it you stay in business and if they don't you change or close up.   I understand what ISWA is trying to do, but they don't include the whole demographic in the process or distribution of rules, ideas or meetings (unless you come to them, which is an employer mentality).

 

I  just disagree on some of the ways ISWA conduct business.  Non-profit organizations that want to be successful are an open book, come up with creative ideas and love the subject matter in which they are involved.  I have no doubt in my mind that Coach Hull and the ISWA loves, lives and breath wrestling, in this I can relate.  In the same breath I do hold issue with ISWA, the way in which decisions are made, decisions that are passed or whispered down and this attitude that we the customer are responsible for this information but not included in the decisions, emailed updates, or mailed newsletters.  This is a business model that I have seen only in government and businesses that fail. 

 

A quick example: I work in a hospital. Customer/Patient satisfaction scores dictate training, discipline and change.  They find out what the customer wants and makes changes based on those wants. Than they train their employees to use key words that are on the survey (like we do hourly rounding, but if you need something before I come back please push your call light), train them to use alcohol foam or wash hands in front of patient when going in room and leaving room, time response times on call lights and several other things that are based off the customer satisfaction surveys. As you can see that is all product - customer based stuff.   If you don't follow these you get wrote up, fired or can't work if you don't go to 2 of their tournaments, I mean training! This would be employer - employee based.

 

Final thoughts look at the numbers. What we were doing and what we are doing isn't working!  Does it need major changes?  From the sounds of things it doesn't matter what I or we think unless we go to the meetings.  This is truly sad.  Hard-balling in something's work, but not being flexible to change when things are not doesn't last long.  Reminds me of a sorry in 1st grade about trees and wind.  The tree that fights the wind and stands ridged and strong will snap before the tree that flexes and bends with the wind as it increases in speed.  Man now I feel like Mike Rowe.

[MD92]

Here is the biggest issue I have.

 

The ISWA puts a large sum of their profits into national team discounts. These profits are from card sales and more importantly their state tournaments. Depending upon the trip the discount can be from about $50 to $250 or more. So some kids get to see the discounts and don't have to pony up the money to even go to state. My kid is shelling out $500+ for his two qualifiers and state just to have a chance to be on the team. If he was one of Hull's Heros he wouldn't have to shell out that money and still reap the rewards of a discounted trip.

 

It's interesting how Hull talks up the importance of going to local events and how it will make you better. Then on another post basically says the "good" kids don't need to do that. I'm confused as why some kids much jump through hoops to get on the team and yet others don't have to do anything except show up for the bus.

1.  If anybody else talked to somebody (namely you) like this they'd get a vacation from this site.

 

2.  So Nick Lee going to UWW Juniors is just showing up for the bus?

[Y2CJ41]

1.  If anybody else talked to somebody (namely you) like this they'd get a vacation from this site.

 

2.  So Nick Lee going to UWW Juniors is just showing up for the bus?

I know your only point of coming to this website is to harass me, much like one of your buddies that is now on a long vacation.

 

Obviously since I live in your head you fail to grasp a simple concept. None of the people on the original list are required to touch the wrestling mat at all until they load up the bus for Junior Duals. This is the issue I have. I push the duals over Fargo every year because it's guaranteed matches and half the cost. Even kids that went 7-1 the year before aren't guaranteed spots and have to hope someone drops out or goes up a weight. What are we telling the kids that do the right thing? Do our state champs hope and pray that a couple people ahead of them drop out so they have a chance?

[MD92]

I just find it amusing that you can say whatever you want to whoever you want, but you don't seem to take it very well when somebody says something to you that you don't like.  That's all.  I realize it is your site and you can do whatever you want, but if you are going to dish it out, be prepared to take it as well.

 

On the subject, maybe there should be some sort of allowance for kids that participated (and did well) the previous year.  Though I think the point is to put the best possible team on the mat for this event.  If your 132 can't beat Red or Lee, then he doesn't deserve a spot on the team.  All those kids on the original list have significant national credentials and that should weigh heavily in their favor.  They have continually sought out the best competition they can find and should be rewarded for that.

[Y2CJ41]

I just find it amusing that you can say whatever you want to whoever you want, but you don't seem to take it very well when somebody says something to you that you don't like.  That's all.  I realize it is your site and you can do whatever you want, but if you are going to dish it out, be prepared to take it as well.

 

On the subject, maybe there should be some sort of allowance for kids that participated (and did well) the previous year.  Though I think the point is to put the best possible team on the mat for this event.  If your 132 can't beat Red or Lee, then he doesn't deserve a spot on the team.  All those kids on the original list have significant national credentials and that should weigh heavily in their favor.  They have continually sought out the best competition they can find and should be rewarded for that.

So the spiel we keep hearing how you MUST wrestle freestyle is all a wash if you are good enough.

 

What do you say to Larson who outplaced Woods at state and went 7-1 last year at the event? Obviously he is on the same level as Woods, but he's regulated to the JV team. Heck what do you say to Mason Parris who could be on the team and ran through state?

 

Don't get me started at 195 as even Blake Rypel would be pushed aside for Cavins. Cavins doesn't have to touch a wrestling mat until the bus leaves for Oklahoma City and gets a spot over Rypel....do you comprehend this?

[GrecoCoach]

All the top states have class wrestling, so then you're on board with that then...right?

 

What is the point of even going to state when kids can look on here and see they don't have a spot on the team? 

 

Last year they had the same selection criteria and finished 19th out of 35 teams and had a couple forfeits on top of that. Now we are taking TWO teams with Disney around the same time! 

Yes, I'm in favor of class wrestling.  I've stated that in other threads that are about class wrestling.

 

The point would be to challenge themselves to win or place at state.  If Chad Red and/or Nick Lee register for state, is everyone else going to stay home because they aren't going to win a spot on the team?

 

Last year was their first attempt at this new process.  These kind of experiments usually struggle at first.  I tried something similar with the Cadet Duals several years ago.  The first year was a disaster.  The second year was much better after learning from mistakes.  Eventually it adjusted to the what the procedures are now for the Cadet Duals.  Nick learned last year that he needs to start the process sooner.  That's why he posted about this a few months ago.

[Greg Ratliff]

v

[GrecoISU]

I don't understand why people can't act like grownups and have a discussion.  There are a few certain people around these parts that, for whatever reason, feel like they have to act like jerks at all times. I hope those of you coaching that are in education aren't anything like what you are here while you're in the classroom. 

Edited May 5, 2016 by GrecoISU

[bigdanteague]

So your kid chose to spend the extra money. He wasn't forced to do it by the ISWA or FBI or some other covert organization.

 

In all the threads and all the complaints, I don't recall seeing your solution to all of this. What say you Y2?

 

Bogus.  Y2, Nick, warsawguy, and others have all mentioned numerous suggestions.  I know you have a vested interest in the ISWA but please keep the spotlight on the ISWA and try not to deflect to others.  It is the ISWA and the decisions they have made which have gotten the international styles in dire straights they are currently in.  Nick picking about a kid who spends more money to get competition or blaming the complainers is not going to fix anything.

[Y2CJ41]

Yes, I'm in favor of class wrestling.  I've stated that in other threads that are about class wrestling.

 

The point would be to challenge themselves to win or place at state.  If Chad Red and/or Nick Lee register for state, is everyone else going to stay home because they aren't going to win a spot on the team?

 

Last year was their first attempt at this new process.  These kind of experiments usually struggle at first.  I tried something similar with the Cadet Duals several years ago.  The first year was a disaster.  The second year was much better after learning from mistakes.  Eventually it adjusted to the what the procedures are now for the Cadet Duals.  Nick learned last year that he needs to start the process sooner.  That's why he posted about this a few months ago.

I liked the plan you had because it rewarded kids who participated in the ISWA state event. This is an ISWA team, kids who participate in ISWA events should be rewarded for that whether they are a superstar or not.

 

I look at the list of already qualified kids and see probably half who haven't been at an ISWA event since 2014 and not signed up this year. When I make up my team for scholastic duals, don't think for a second I don't prefer kids that wrestled at the IHPO. Even this year I selected a semi-state kid over state placers with that being one reason.

 

We cannot get away from treating people right that do what we ask of them. My kid is following the ISWA mantra of wrestling freestyle and greco and has talked about going to Fargo. What do we tell people that pony up money and time to be pushed aside for a superstar that just has to say yes to going? That's not the best way to do business in my mind.

[MD92]

So the spiel we keep hearing how you MUST wrestle freestyle is all a wash if you are good enough.

 

What do you say to Larson who outplaced Woods at state and went 7-1 last year at the event? Obviously he is on the same level as Woods, but he's regulated to the JV team. Heck what do you say to Mason Parris who could be on the team and ran through state?

 

Don't get me started at 195 as even Blake Rypel would be pushed aside for Cavins. Cavins doesn't have to touch a wrestling mat until the bus leaves for Oklahoma City and gets a spot over Rypel....do you comprehend this?

Question, does Rypel want to go?  Does he even wrestle freestyle?  All I see on his information page are folkstyle results.  Same with Parris.  Now, I believe they are the best in the state at their weights, but at least according to their info pages, they seem to wrestle folkstyle as opposed to freestyle.  I know you happily correct me if I am wrong about that.

[grecoref]

Bogus.  Y2, Nick, warsawguy, and others have all mentioned numerous suggestions.  I know you have a vested interest in the ISWA but please keep the spotlight on the ISWA and try not to deflect to others.  It is the ISWA and the decisions they have made which have gotten the international styles in dire straights they are currently in.  Nick picking about a kid who spends more money to get competition or blaming the complainers is not going to fix anything.

 

I have no vested interest in the ISWA. I'm not a Board Member. I am extremely frustrated that no matter what other people come up with as a suggestion, the 3 people you mentioned and a few others do whatever they can to shoot it down because it's not their suggestion nor does it benefit their kid or agenda.

I also believe that the people who are on the ISWA Board are good people. I know they are honest hard working people. Some have questioned their integrity which is way off base. I don't agree with every decision they have made, but I have never questioned their integrity.

[Y2CJ41]

Question, does Rypel want to go?  Does he even wrestle freestyle?  All I see on his information page are folkstyle results.  Same with Parris.  Now, I believe they are the best in the state at their weights, but at least according to their info pages, they seem to wrestle folkstyle as opposed to freestyle.  I know you happily correct me if I am wrong about that.

Both wrestled freestyle at the UFC Ultimates last summer.

[bigdanteague]

I have no vested interest in the ISWA. I'm not a Board Member. I am extremely frustrated that no matter what other people come up with as a suggestion, the 3 people you mentioned and a few others do whatever they can to shoot it down because it's not their suggestion nor does it benefit their kid or agenda.

I also believe that the people who are on the ISWA Board are good people. I know they are honest hard working people. Some have questioned their integrity which is way off base. I don't agree with every decision they have made, but I have never questioned their integrity.

 

That is not what you said earlier.  You claimed that Y2 did not have suggestions and now your are saying you don't like how they are making suggestions.  

 

Furthermore, by claiming that people like Joe Caprino, Dan Hatch and Nick Wiesjahn only have their kids or their agenda in mind when making suggestions is a slap in the face to these fellas.   

 

Regardless of how honorable the ISWA people are, there is still a problem.  The problem is because of decisions made by the ISWA people.  

 

Again, the mess we are in is the ISWA's doing.  Deflecting attention to those that offer suggestions to better the product will not fix the problem.

[grecoref]

That is not what you said earlier.  You claimed that Y2 did not have suggestions and now your are saying you don't like how they are making suggestions.  

 

Furthermore, by claiming that people like Joe Caprino, Dan Hatch and Nick Wiesjahn only have their kids or their agenda in mind when making suggestions is a slap in the face to these fellas.   

 

Regardless of how honorable the ISWA people are, there is still a problem.  The problem is because of decisions made by the ISWA people.  

 

Again, the mess we are in is the ISWA's doing.  Deflecting attention to those that offer suggestions to better the product will not fix the problem.

Read what I wrote again...I said whatever someone else says isn't good enough for them and they tear it down.

 

Maybe that was a slap in the face. I couldn't pick Dan Hatch out of a lineup (that's not intended to be a slam), but the next time I see Joe or Nick I may just do that...and they both know I'm joking...more or less.

 

I agree it is the ISWA's mess. I'm not deflecting anything. Let's try to fix it. In order to do that we need to be open to EVERYONE'S opinion, not just our own.

 

These 75 threads remind me of the old saying "When all is said and done, more is said than done."

[GrecoCoach]

I can tell him whatever I want!  I pay my dues to ISWA, USA, AAU, Bronze level certified for 22 years, 5 years in the army, finishing up my masters degree (at Indiana Tech), and 25 plus years in wrestling.  I think I have earned my right to voice my opinion! You have the right to listen, don't listen, read it, don't read it, shove it, eat it or respond back to it. Pick one. I also have done all the above......represent the ISWA (as a coach and a wrestler), provide information, communicate with some back-and-forth discussion and make Indiana wrestling better.   Wasn't aware it was posted months ago, but if it would have been sent out to all ISWA Coach card members (member Id # 97800201) or ISWA participant card members (son has that one in his wallet) than I would have been aware of the change! 

Kudos on all your accomplishments.  And thank you for your service to our country.  (Please don't take those as sarcasm, they aren't.)

 

My point is that Nick is the one person who is doing what you want... providing information and communication.  Hating on him isn't going to make other board members want to come seeking your personal opinions.

 

You have the right to your own opinion about the ISWA.  Based on your personal experiences with them, I can see why you have these views.  I just disagree with you about their transparency and business model.  All the information you want is available - website, meeting minutes, annual report, club reps, section reps, and a white book that gets mailed to every member.  And no company lets customers make their business decisions - the leadership makes decisions based on what is best for its stakeholders (customers and shareholders).  Sometimes those decisions don't work as expected and require more changes.  I trust that the ISWA will listen and recognize the adjustments that need to be made.

[bigdanteague]

Read what I wrote again...I said whatever someone else says isn't good enough for them and they tear it down.

 

Maybe that was a slap in the face. I couldn't pick Dan Hatch out of a lineup (that's not intended to be a slam), but the next time I see Joe or Nick I may just do that...and they both know I'm joking...more or less.

 

I agree it is the ISWA's mess. I'm not deflecting anything. Let's try to fix it. In order to do that we need to be open to EVERYONE'S opinion, not just our own.  Y

 

These 75 threads remind me of the old saying "When all is said and done, more is said than done."

 

If you think your suggestions are better, you would fight for them too.  You also disparaged these gentleman by claiming they have some kind of "agenda" behind their suggestions.  This is a passive aggressive way of dismissing their suggestions.

 

You are correct that the ISWA should be open to EVERYONE'S opinion.  It is not incumbent on Joe Nick or Dan to be open to EVERYONE'S opinion, they don't hold the decision making power.  The ISWA can choose to be open to suggestions or they passively aggressively dismiss them as you have.  

 

Unfortunately, I feel that business as usual will be the order of the day and all the good and honorable volunteers will continue to pat themselves on the back while blaming all the carpers and complainers.

[grecoref]

If you think your suggestions are better, you would fight for them too.  You also disparaged these gentleman by claiming they have some kind of "agenda" behind their suggestions.  This is a passive aggressive way of dismissing their suggestions.

 

You are correct that the ISWA should be open to EVERYONE'S opinion.  It is not incumbent on Joe Nick or Dan to be open to EVERYONE'S opinion, they don't hold the decision making power.  The ISWA can choose to be open to suggestions or they passively aggressively dismiss them as you have.  

 

Unfortunately, I feel that business as usual will be the order of the day and all the good and honorable volunteers will continue to pat themselves on the back while blaming all the carpers and complainers.

So do you have suggestions or are you just here to troll?

[bigdanteague]

So do you have suggestions or are you just here to troll?

Ahh the inevitable personal attack.  How predictable of you.

 

Here is one heck of a suggestion.

 

1.  Recognize the elephant in the room:  The two meet qualifier was a knee jerk decision to try financially support the local clubs.  Improving in the international styles had nothing to do with the decision as evidenced by Waivergate.   Like most knee jerk decisions, there are unintended consequences. (Waivergate, Midweek Mayhem, Studapalooza).  The ISWA must admit to this poor decision before moving on.

 

Maybe I have an agenda, maybe I am just a troll, or maybe, just maybe, I actually work with kids in the room at the grass roots and know how these decisions have crippled freestyle.

[MCKAJC]

Ahh the inevitable personal attack.  How predictable of you.

 

Here is one heck of a suggestion.

 

1.  Recognize the elephant in the room:  The two meet qualifier was a knee jerk decision to try financially support the local clubs.  Improving in the international styles had nothing to do with the decision as evidenced by Waivergate.   Like most knee jerk decisions, there are unintended consequences. (Waivergate, Midweek Mayhem, Studapalooza).  The ISWA must admit to this poor decision before moving on.

 

Maybe I have an agenda, maybe I am just a troll, or maybe, just maybe, I actually work with kids in the room at the grass roots and know how these decisions have crippled freestyle.

 

Well put.

 

I don't think anyone has to go out on a limb to understand that the failure of the ISWA to right the ship came from desire to do the right thing, at some point. Even in my present situation, of having two boys who just returned to practice this week from documented injury yet were ridiculously passed off by the ISWA, I've tried to see their path. Yet, after we see what is clearly last minute scrambling with "midweek mayhem" and "studapalooza", we also clearly see, that's it's not about "the kids", but about "some of the kids". And I suppose mine aren't "some of the kids", so we are out as a result. We've been long time ISWAer's as well, going on 10 years now. Apparently our dedication doesn't account for much. it did get us a good slap in the face though. 

 

We've not spent a single year in wrestling that we didn't start working on freestyle after we were done with folkstyle usually after cedar falls. My suggestion: If it's truly about "the kids" then abandon any type of qualifying and allow ALL to compete. until then "about the kids" is just gas.

Edited May 5, 2016 by MCKAJC

[grecoref]

Ahh the inevitable personal attack.  How predictable of you.

 

Here is one heck of a suggestion.

 

1.  Recognize the elephant in the room:  The two meet qualifier was a knee jerk decision to try financially support the local clubs.  Improving in the international styles had nothing to do with the decision as evidenced by Waivergate.   Like most knee jerk decisions, there are unintended consequences. (Waivergate, Midweek Mayhem, Studapalooza).  The ISWA must admit to this poor decision before moving on.

 

Maybe I have an agenda, maybe I am just a troll, or maybe, just maybe, I actually work with kids in the room at the grass roots and know how these decisions have crippled freestyle.

And you have been taking pot shots at me for quite some time.

[warsawwrestling]

I don't understand why people can't act like grownups and have a discussion.  There are a few certain people around these parts that, for whatever reason, feel like they have to act like jerks at all times. I hope those of you coaching that are in education aren't anything like what you are here while you're in the classroom.

 

Really? Better yet follow the crowd over the cliff, keep your opinions to yourself thinking is what you are wanting promoted in schools? I want my son to grow up questioning things, thinking for himself and speaking up when he sees something broken, against his morals or values! None of us, we'll I am not suggesting ISWA moves or closes it's doors, but quite the opposite! I'm afraid the way things are going that it will end up having to because of their results in numbers over the last 4 years.

[bigdanteague]

And you have been taking pot shots at me for quite some time.

 

Pot shots at your passive aggressive defense of the status quo.  That is much different than name calling.

 

In my last two posts I have made salient points that you have ignored and instead you have resorted to A) name calling and "I know you are but what am I".

 

In the message board world that usually means you have thrown in the towel.  If you want to recognize the "elephant in the room" and continue discussion, I am more than willing.  I have no desire to defend myself against ad hominem attacks.

[base]

Too many opinions.  Not enough focus.  Too many people want a perfect system, as long as it works out for their wrestlers.

 

Take one of two routes, people:

 

1.  Go along with the ISWA.  If you don't like their decisions, then volunteer your time and get on the committee and do something about it and quit your bellyaching.  Otherwise, follow their rules and get to the top or wherever your goal is set.

 

2.  Forget about the ISWA and their rulings.  Focus on getting your kids where you want them to be.  I note that some of the most successful young men in the state at this time are from areas like Maurer/Coughlin wrestling club, Region Wrestling Academy.  How often do you see them on here complaining?  Answer:  NEVER.  They are too busy getting their wrestlers prepared for the next step they are going to take.

 

Read em over and take your pick, then get on board for the ride.  Focus on the journey and reinforcing how great it is, if your wrestlers only hear you complaining and moaning about how wrong things are, they are going to feed off of that and likely be crying in their beer in future years.  In short, if you want to make it happen, then make it happen.  Life ain't fair and probably neither is wrestling. Fortune favors the bold and the hard workers.  If you think Fargo is unfair then for God's sake go to Disney and open up a can on some people there.  Either way, enjoy the ride, improve every day and tell everyone what a great sport we have and how lucky to be a part of it

[grecoref]

Pot shots at your passive aggressive defense of the status quo.  That is much different than name calling.

 

In my last two posts I have made salient points that you have ignored and instead you have resorted to A) name calling and "I know you are but what am I".

 

In the message board world that usually means you have thrown in the towel.  If you want to recognize the "elephant in the room" and continue discussion, I am more than willing.  I have no desire to defend myself against ad hominem attacks.

I have said may times I don't agree with every decision the ISWA has made. In another topic, I included what I sent to them in writing regarding this very issue.