ontherise219 Posted February 10, 2016 Share Posted February 10, 2016 Why is there not a true wrestle back to third? How much longer would it be if it was just the ticket round? Wrestle the top bracket ticket round losers and bottom backet losers at the same time as the semis leaving 4 mats down. Then add one extra round to cross bracket? bolandm 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Walter Sobchak Posted February 10, 2016 Share Posted February 10, 2016 What an original idea. But the powers to be have declared no wrestleback on Shabbas. whitakermom 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maligned Posted February 10, 2016 Share Posted February 10, 2016 Why is there not a true wrestle back to third? How much longer would it be if it was just the ticket round? Wrestle the top bracket ticket round losers and bottom backet losers at the same time as the semis leaving 4 mats down. Then add one extra round to cross bracket? Yeah, at the sites with 4 mats, it would literally add one whole hour to the day (first wrestle backs no time added at same time as semi's; second wrestle backs 2 matches per weight on 4 mats). It's how we know that not having wrestle backs has nothing to do with time. The IHSAA added 4th place guys to semi-state when no one even asked for it and added 2 hours to the day's events after having said many times that there was no time for wrestle backs. allyourbase 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ontherise219 Posted February 10, 2016 Author Share Posted February 10, 2016 With the tourney being based off of individual score it should be the best 4 to go. What an original idea. But the powers to be have declared no wrestleback on Shabbas. So we cant discuss it on a open forum? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Walter Sobchak Posted February 10, 2016 Share Posted February 10, 2016 I don't think you'll get very many arguments for discussion. you're pretty much preaching to the choir. and beating a dead horse. But go ahead discuss all you want. I would be in favor of seeing them. am I wrong? Bulldog89 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ontherise219 Posted February 10, 2016 Author Share Posted February 10, 2016 Yea I'm not sure why it's not pushed harder Bulldog89 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sslaymon Posted February 10, 2016 Share Posted February 10, 2016 Seems like the coaches have pushed for it quite a bit in years past based on the responses from this board. It's more of the IHSAA not listening or hearing what wrestling wants. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aoberlin Posted February 10, 2016 Share Posted February 10, 2016 Can we go back and see what the presentations were for wrestle backs in the years past to see if we can add to them or improve on them? Not assuming they were bad just wanting to see them. manchwrestlingdad and PatParham 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wrestling Scholar Posted February 10, 2016 Share Posted February 10, 2016 Both State and Semi-state need the wrestlebacks. FWwrestling1996, bolandm and allyourbase 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ontherise219 Posted February 10, 2016 Author Share Posted February 10, 2016 I would say so I like the wrestleback at the sectional level. But with the team title being based off a individual scoring system. It has a huge impact on how a team champion is crowned. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aoberlin Posted February 10, 2016 Share Posted February 10, 2016 How many other States do not have wrestle backs? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Walter Sobchak Posted February 10, 2016 Share Posted February 10, 2016 the problem is the IHSAA compares wrestling to other individual sports. They have been quoted as saying how many times do you get to lose and move on... track, swimming, cross country, tennis,and golf you lose and your done.... so they really don't have sympathy for the wrestling community and the wrestle back thing. I do know that the state finals got changed so that you can earn your spot for 5th, it use to be that the only way to get to go for 5th was you had to lose in the quarter finals to someone who made it to the finals. If you lost in quarters and then the person who beat you lost in semis best you could do was 7th. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aoberlin Posted February 10, 2016 Share Posted February 10, 2016 the problem is the IHSAA compares wrestling to other individual sports. They have been quoted as saying how many times do you get to lose and move on... track, swimming, cross country, tennis,and golf you lose and your done.... so they really don't have sympathy for the wrestling community and the wrestle back thing. I do know that the state finals got changed so that you can earn your spot for 5th, it use to be that the only way to get to go for 5th was you had to lose in the quarter finals to someone who made it to the finals. If you lost in quarters and then the person who beat you lost in semis best you could do was 7th. That is all understood. That is why we need to gather data on wrestling in every state to backup our arguments. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpt189 Posted February 10, 2016 Share Posted February 10, 2016 I believe at evansville they run all 4 mats for the semis. Ex, Mats 1 and 2 would be 106, 3 and 4 would be 113, and so on. Or at least the last two years they've done that Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ontherise219 Posted February 10, 2016 Author Share Posted February 10, 2016 I would love to see the other proposals. I know one year they wrestled back to a true 5th at semis state. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
busstogate Posted February 10, 2016 Share Posted February 10, 2016 (edited) I was communicating a little with an Illinois Matmen poster recently who said Indiana needs to fix their state tournament because of the one and done on Friday night. I countered and told him that it sucks equally as bad to have a kid make weight over three days, go 2-2 and still not place. Illinois only has three rounds to the postseason: They start with very watered-down one-day regionals where this year at least one regional was awarding bracket boards to a single participant in a weight class. They have full wrestlebacks to third with only three advancing. Next, there is a one and-a-half-day sectional with full wrestlebacks advancing four. Their sectional is much like our old semistate when we advanced three from regionals, but a lot of weak wrestlers are to be found in the prelim 2nd/3rd bouts that meet up with one of the regional champions. State is pretty much three days of wrestling that could easily be condensed into two. State champs and runner-ups have three days to wrestle four matches It's a ridiculous prison and needs to be fixed as much as ours does. Did I mention Illinois has three classes? Some City of Chicago teams are driving close to an hour and a half to get to their regionals. Edited February 10, 2016 by busstogate Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
statechamp87 Posted February 10, 2016 Share Posted February 10, 2016 I like the single elimination style, but wouldn't strongly oppose the other. It's a good conversation. Something I have always wondered though (even more so than double elimination) is why there is no true second at semi-states. So, I like the idea being entertained. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Po-Tweet Posted February 10, 2016 Share Posted February 10, 2016 I was communicating a little with an Illinois Matmen poster recently who said Indiana needs to fix their state tournament because of the one and done on Friday night. I countered and told him that it sucks equally as bad to have a kid make weight over three days, go 2-2 and still not place. Illinois only has three rounds to the postseason: They start with very watered-down one-day regionals where this year at least one regional was awarding bracket boards to a single participant in a weight class. They have full wrestlebacks to third with only three advancing. Next, there is a one and-a-half-day sectional with full wrestlebacks advancing four. Their sectional is much like our old semistate when we advanced three from regionals, but a lot of weak wrestlers are to be found in the prelim 2nd/3rd bouts that meet up with one of the regional champions. State is pretty much three days of wrestling that could easily be condensed into two. State champs and runner-ups have three days to wrestle four matches. It's a ridiculous prison and needs to be fixed as much as ours does. Did I mention Illinois has three classes? Some City of Chicago teams are driving close to an hour and a half to get to their regionals. So you are saying they do have full wrestle backs... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrecoCoach Posted February 10, 2016 Share Posted February 10, 2016 I would love to see the other proposals. I know one year they wrestled back to a true 5th at semis state. Our best chance at getting any form of wrestle backs is to use the IHSAA's own idea of wrestling back to 5th, just like they did a few years ago. Top 5 qualify for state. No extra time at semistate than they have done before. 4th & 5th placers wrestle first round of state before the winner faces a semistate champ. Adds about 2 hours to Friday night, but would bring in more money with ticket sales for the IHSAA. It would actually take less time Friday night if they did this and put 8 mats down - I've been told that is possible at Banker's Life. It's not full wrestle backs, but does give a chance for terrible draws to have a chance to still qualify. And those 4th/5th matchups would be fun to watch. I'm guessing a majority of 5ths would beat 4ths. That data could be used to try to get full wrestle backs in a few years. aoberlin and sudden death 7 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ontherise219 Posted February 10, 2016 Author Share Posted February 10, 2016 If they increased admission by 1 dollar would it pay for the extra hour spent do have a wrestle back to third? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
busstogate Posted February 10, 2016 Share Posted February 10, 2016 (edited) So you are saying they do have full wrestle backs... Sort of. You get pulled back into consolations if the guy who beat you in your first match advances into the third round. If he loses his second round match in the championship bracket, you are eliminated and the guy who beat you in round one that just lost in round two wrestles a first round-loser whose first-round opponent won his second round match, pretty much the repechage process in the Olympics. You control your own destiny in wrestlebacks, however. You can go 2-2 for the whole tourney and also be eliminated since they only place six wrestlers. Edited February 10, 2016 by busstogate Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wrestling Scholar Posted February 10, 2016 Share Posted February 10, 2016 (edited) the problem is the IHSAA compares wrestling to other individual sports. They have been quoted as saying how many times do you get to lose and move on... track, swimming, cross country, tennis,and golf you lose and your done.... so they really don't have sympathy for the wrestling community and the wrestle back thing. I do know that the state finals got changed so that you can earn your spot for 5th, it use to be that the only way to get to go for 5th was you had to lose in the quarter finals to someone who made it to the finals. If you lost in quarters and then the person who beat you lost in semis best you could do was 7th. I think you're correct on that ISHSAA try's to incorporate their format into every sport, but every sport is different. Wrestle back's are an essential tool that fits wrestling, and is the best method to ensure you get your most skilled athletes advance. When compared to other sports like track, swimming, cross country, you can say losers advance, because they normally take the top 8 times in swimming or in track running events. Or they take the top 8 throws or jumps in the field events. Cross Country takes the top 20 something. Golf takes the top scores to go state. You notice that these sports have one thing in common, they can easily measure their best athletes and the top athletes get to advance. Also a lot of losers or people who didn't finish first get to advance. Tennis brackets are closest to wrestling brackets as you have head to head competition, but I play tennis and I have never seen a tennis back. But the difference in tennis is it take hours to play one match and tennis court space is limited, so seeding is crucial and relevant to prior matches. It only takes 5 minutes of wrestling time for a wrestle back, but a tennis match literally can go for 3 hours. I don't think the ISHAA administrators get it. But I don't think they ever will. Im still looking for another state that doesn't have wrestle backs in their state series. I don't think there is one. Edited February 10, 2016 by Wrestling Scholar Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wrestling Scholar Posted February 10, 2016 Share Posted February 10, 2016 (edited) If they increased admission by 1 dollar would it pay for the extra hour spent do have a wrestle back to third? Does Bankers life charge by the hour? I think if you started at noon on Friday, you could get a whole bracket in with wrestle backs. Edited February 10, 2016 by Wrestling Scholar busstogate 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aoberlin Posted February 10, 2016 Share Posted February 10, 2016 Our best chance at getting any form of wrestle backs is to use the IHSAA's own idea of wrestling back to 5th, just like they did a few years ago. Top 5 qualify for state. No extra time at semistate than they have done before. 4th & 5th placers wrestle first round of state before the winner faces a semistate champ. Adds about 2 hours to Friday night, but would bring in more money with ticket sales for the IHSAA. It would actually take less time Friday night if they did this and put 8 mats down - I've been told that is possible at Banker's Life. It's not full wrestle backs, but does give a chance for terrible draws to have a chance to still qualify. And those 4th/5th matchups would be fun to watch. I'm guessing a majority of 5ths would beat 4ths. That data could be used to try to get full wrestle backs in a few years. I could live with this!!! You get 4th or 5th you really have to fight your way back. Actually I would say it gives the 4th or 5th placer a better chance at beating the number 1 placer because they would have that first match out of the way. busstogate 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
busstogate Posted February 10, 2016 Share Posted February 10, 2016 Does Bankers life charge by the hour? I think if you started at noon on Friday, you could get a whole bracket in with wrestle backs. Bingo. You could probably also get round two in at the same time and have an elimination round and make wrestlers have to win twice to place. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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