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Records and Seeds not holding up at Sectionals


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I was wondering how many sectionals were like the sectional I attended this year,where seeded wrestlers with good records didn't hold up?? I am not talking about a kid who got caught , I am saying after looking up multiple weight classes , many kids wrestled other teams wIth JV kids (not taking away from the jv kids or teams) or you look up a kid in their conference tournament and they are like 23-8 , look at sectionals and their record shows 18-4.. Their total varsity record should be used for that year correct ?? Also noticed many larger schools wrestling smaller schools with mostly forfeits... ( not taking away from small schools , they have as tough as kids as anyone) just seems like a lot record padding , it costs the schools that actually try to complete againist the best... There are schools that don't attend their own conference dual so they can host their own duals composed of mostly jv teams and really small schools ... So you go into sectionals with no head to head matches .. Wrestling itself is the fairest sport I have ever been apart of but I think some coaches have found ways to get around the rules in place to get a advantage ..just wondering if anyone else has seen this

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You see this every year. Kids come into sectionals with pretty solid records, get seeded, and then get beat out and don't advance. That will never change. You can't penalize a kid for not wrestling a schedule that is as tough as another wrestler's. It's not his fault. Say that wrestler's school would start beefing up their schedule, and then the team starts doing really bad. I bet the numbers on that already small team start to dwindle away. When it comes to seeding the main job is to get the two best wrestlers on the opposite sides of the bracket. Sure sometimes the top 2 end up at the 2&3 seeds, but the actual matches itself usually start to weed out what some would call "inflated" records. Either the kid is going to be good enough to advance, or not make it out of sectionals. Usually the better 4 are moving out of sectionals anyways.

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Littlevito

 

I know it is the wrestlers fault , it is the coaches or AD that change the schedule to make it easier... You can see that in the dual records but when they get into decent tournament, the team fails...

 

I know it is factored in when scoring for the team state meet , it is just sad that teams would do that... Nothing againist any kids , they can wrestle what is scheduled..

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One thing that helps is to have more   inter-sectional duals so you have more seeding info.   But that always doesn't work.  But one thing that is true is that we combine really big schools with really small schools in the same sectional.   The big schools generally wrestle the bigger schools which as a result will have a stronger strength of schedule..   The small schools wrestle the local small schools and don't see the competition, but can generate a good record.   But in the long run, it works out.  Maybe a few kids place a spot lower than they should have.   But these guys normally have a shot to make it up at Regionals.

Edited by Wrestling Scholar
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I believe this will happen at the Pendleton Heights regional this weekend.  Lots of kids with good records will get beat by kids with marginal records, but who have wrestled lots of good competition.  I know LN and LC wrestle tough schedules (Marion County, MIC, and Al Smith).  

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Leaveitonthemat

 

I totally agree with your assessment LN&LC ,both wrestle large schools and tough competition

 

I have two main points with this post

 

1.When coaches change their schedules to make this situation happen , you are hurting our sport and I think it is on the edge of dishonest (unless those teams are in your conference)

2.These coaches are hurting their kids as well as other kids that this affects...

 

Wrestling has become my favorite sport because any kid can complete regardless of size,economic condition and creed..95%of the time the correct hand gets raised ...

 

These stats and records did not affect me on any level besides I think it is shady and I wish that the coaches that do this would stop..

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I find it funny that some teams cry about inflated records at the seeding meeting but refuse to wrestle those teams during the regular season because the team is no good, too small etc.   I understand why the bigger or better team should always seek better competition, but they really come to the seeding meeting without a leg to stand on in their complaints if round robin doesn't rescue the seed.

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Busstogate

 

The inflated record was in reference to varsity teams wrestling Jv teams not small teams..Some of the best wrestlers in state come from small schools.

 

If a kid is the schools #1 kid at that weight regardless of how good he is then that is a varsity match..

 

If a varsity school has a dual team tournament where there are 4 b or jv teams ( not the schools best team) those should not count as varsity wins come sectional time or for the dual stats..

 

Also your overall record regardless of what weight classes you wrestle should count in the seeding.. If a kid bumps up and beats a ranked kid , the coach will use that to his advantage in the seeding meeting but the matches lost on a bump up don't count againist you or if a kid cuts a weight class and all his losses were at his old weight don't count?... I think that is shady...

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Inflated records can be an issue.  Happens every year at sectional and even regular season tourneys.  Some kid comes in on a great record and can not even get out of the first round against a decent wrestler.  The issue is that many times you end up with the two better wrestlers on the same side of the bracket.....Unfortunately there will always be people of questionable honesty and ethics involved in everything.  Like every time a wrestler meets up in dual competition with a very heavily favored opponent, the coach holds them out and throws in a JV kid, week after week, the only losses the starter takes are in tournaments, sure helps the overall record....Or claiming you beat a common opponent in a seeding meeting when you actually never wrestled them to improve your wrestler's seed, or seeding a kid with a bunch of "Varsity B" wins, then scratching him on Saturday and replacing him with your Varsity A kid because you didn't want to be seeded where you would of been originally with Varsity A..........

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Busstogate

 

The inflated record was in reference to varsity teams wrestling Jv teams not small teams..Some of the best wrestlers in state come from small schools.

 

If a kid is the schools #1 kid at that weight regardless of how good he is then that is a varsity match..

 

If a varsity school has a dual team tournament where there are 4 b or jv teams ( not the schools best team) those should not count as varsity wins come sectional time or for the dual stats..

 

Also your overall record regardless of what weight classes you wrestle should count in the seeding.. If a kid bumps up and beats a ranked kid , the coach will use that to his advantage in the seeding meeting but the matches lost on a bump up don't count againist you or if a kid cuts a weight class and all his losses were at his old weight don't count?... I think that is shady...

When I meant "small", I meant small in terms of carrying forfeits.  Any team with a full lineup will try to avoid teams with holes, but this can come back to bite them if the small team has a stud.

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Busstogate

 

The inflated record was in reference to varsity teams wrestling Jv teams not small teams..Some of the best wrestlers in state come from small schools.

 

If a kid is the schools #1 kid at that weight regardless of how good he is then that is a varsity match..

 

If a varsity school has a dual team tournament where there are 4 b or jv teams ( not the schools best team) those should not count as varsity wins come sectional time or for the dual stats..

 

Also your overall record regardless of what weight classes you wrestle should count in the seeding.. If a kid bumps up and beats a ranked kid , the coach will use that to his advantage in the seeding meeting but the matches lost on a bump up don't count againist you or if a kid cuts a weight class and all his losses were at his old weight don't count?... I think that is shady...

Most of the schools with B teams win more than they lose against   the   varsity teams   they wrestle.   What I see is some small school with amazing records but don't count their losses against varsity B teams to inflate their records.

Edited by Wrestling Scholar
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Don't get me started on the Varsity B thing, in every other IHSAA sport Varsity B is called JV.  They don't play on Friday night.  You have 1 winner of a varsity wrestle off.....period.  Call em what you want but they ain't your number one wrestler.  If you are not the wrestle off winner that week, you ain't varsity.

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Don't get me started on the Varsity B thing, in every other IHSAA sport Varsity B is called JV.  They don't play on Friday night.  You have 1 winner of a varsity wrestle off.....period.  Call em what you want but they ain't your number one wrestler.  If you are not the wrestle off winner that week, you ain't varsity.

You can call it what you want varsity B, or Oldanbroke's definition "JV".    But its a good developmental system for teams with depth to keep kids developing, getting experience  and also to keep them motivated to stay out.   I know some teams with 2nd string varsity kids or "varisty B" if you will have had kids that were state level.  

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You can call it what you want varsity B, or Oldanbroke's definition "JV". But its a good developmental system for teams with depth to keep kids developing, getting experience and also to keep them motivated to stay out. I know some teams with 2nd string varsity kids or "varisty B" if you will have had kids that were state level.

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I am not saying anything negative about the "jv" kids wrestling against varsity kids..I agree any mat time for kids is good mat time but you shouldn't count those wins for sectionals seeding unless it is common opponents .. Because some coaches won't count the losses .. Also any varsity match involving a wrestler win or loss counts towards their seeding no matter if it is up or down ..For whatever reason it seems acceptable to some coaches to manipulate results to their favor when seeding kids ..

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I am not saying anything negative about the "jv" kids wrestling against varsity kids..I agree any mat time for kids is good mat time but you shouldn't count those wins for sectionals seeding unless it is common opponents .. Because some coaches won't count the losses .. Also any varsity match involving a wrestler win or loss counts towards their seeding no matter if it is up or down ..For whatever reason it seems acceptable to some coaches to manipulate results to their favor when seeding kids ..

Well, you create a problem when you are allowed to use those matches as commons to fulfill one part of the criteria, but then say you can't use them for another (winning percentage).

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Most of the varsity B teams I see are varsity level kids at the vast majority of high schools in the state. Remember we are talking about 2nd stringers from programs like Warren, Penn & Perry, and those kids are better than the kids with inflated records the thread began with. So I disagree this has had any net affect on inflated records.

 

Having multiple " varsity" teams one of the best recent developments in IN HS wrestling. it allows more kids to participate in meaningful competition. Many of these kids are as deserving or more so (in respect to time and effort invested in the sport of wrestling) than the "true" varsity on he may be competing against. Not cracking the varsity lineup after years of countless hours devoted to the sport causes kids to quit. Who wants to go to a JV meet when you can beat 3/4 of the varsity wrestlers in the state(many of these varsity B guys can)

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