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How much longer are we going to go on like this?


decbell1

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I'm going to ask this question, and if nobody knows the answer, I will investigate it myself...........but for the sake of time:

 

How did the Ohio State Duals function prior to the adoption of the tournament by the OHSAA?  Were they given an extra weigh in(s)?  How many stages did it have?  

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I don't know what to tell you. If I coached at the biggest school in the state I would have voted the same way.

The notion that you believe teams care about having points next to their name is absurd. There are 40 teams that even with all state champions cannot qualify for the event yet you want to "include" them. Go ask coaches from Northrop, South Side, Heritage, Whitko, etc if they know about or care about being counted for team state. Only in your fantasy world to teams past the top 20 really care about team state.

 

Voting for teams to be included that have no chance is just watering down the event and if you don't realize that it's a shame. It doesn't look good when your team has been on the bubble of qualifying and if you had voted another way your team would NOT have qualified for the event.

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The notion that you believe teams care about having points next to their name is absurd. There are 40 teams that even with all state champions cannot qualify for the event yet you want to "include" them. Go ask coaches from Northrop, South Side, Heritage, Whitko, etc if they know about or care about being counted for team state. Only in your fantasy world to teams past the top 20 really care about team state.

 

Voting for teams to be included that have no chance is just watering down the event and if you don't realize that it's a shame. It doesn't look good when your team has been on the bubble of qualifying and if you had voted another way your team would NOT have qualified for the event.

We placed 1st, 2nd, and 5th in the first three years of the team state.  I am not really worried about our team getting in, we will be fine. This past season  we debated accepting the invite because we knew we would be down, at the end of the day the alternate was a team that we beat fairly handily the year before so we accepted.  If you think we want to get in and get beat down like we did this year you are totally wrong.  We may be down for a few years, we will be up again someday, so will all of those teams you mentioned, you act as though teams that are down should just write themselves off and quit working to get better.  In your view whats the point of counting teams out of the top 20?  They don't have a chance anyhow?  We should actually take the top 36 teams by genius rankings and divide them up, that would be more competitive.

There are several reasons that I voted how I did, none of those reasons have anything to do with how it would effect our team getting into team state.

1. I have told you that I believe in an all in format.  I want this event to help all of the teams in Indiana.  I don't see how telling the smaller schools that your so bad, you don't count will help them at all.   All-in also seems like the most fair way to do it in my opinion. 

2. I feel that changing the classes every year based on the number of teams is confusing and takes away from the event.  Its much "cleaner" if you have your classes for two year periods, and then re-class with the new enrollment numbers every two years.

3. If we want to define schools as being "small, medium, and large, then we would be better off classing by saying schools under 550 are small, 550-1250 are medium, 1250 + are large.  That in my opinion would make much more sense than counting up the teams each year and recreating the classes.

4. Some of the teams that were effected were already competitive in the class above.  Southmont for example was a top 4 team in class 2A, now they go to to 1A and of course are one of the top teams.  As they come down that means that another, smaller team will be left out.  Who gains more in this situation?  Southmont, or the smaller team that may get into team state for the first time?  To me that is a debatable question.

5. 1A was the class that had the most turnover over the years, I feel that this is a good thing, the more teams we get involved the better.  By making 1A more difficult you are also making it more difficult for those smaller teams to get in.  Whats better for the sport, having a group of 4-5 teams that dominate a class, which is what could happen, or having multiple teams via for a spot?

 

So there is my thought process behind why I voted the way that I did.  With all of that being said, I still see and understand your points.  There are some good things that would come and did come from cutting teams from the process.  You had a much tougher class 1A, the tournament had added excitement, it may push 1A schools to get better, etc, etc, etc.  I am just not sure that is what is best for the overall aspect of the event, and still don't know.  It added somethings, took away some others.  If we voted again today, I would think the process through and see what I felt was best for the most teams again.

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I would like a "micro-team" state tournament among those teams with 7 or less wrestlers.  I have run the numbers and this could be finished in about 45 minutes if we don't send out the men to get their hands raised on forfiets.

 

I would like to propose that county tournaments are classed.  My boy Cletus from Bumtucky High wasn't offered the same opportunities as Reginald from Yuppieville High in the big city

 

Idea for getting more audience at meets.  Each meet you buy 10 powerball tickets.  Everyone with paid admission gets a share of the winnings if we hit it big. Lose the singlets and get some velour track suits. Concessions will be encouraged to stock more deep-fried items cause fairs are pretty crowded if you really think about it

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We still have people in our wrestling community that considers the top scoring team at Bankers Life as the Team State Champions. The division isn't helping.

You mean the one actually sponsored by the IHSAA? Yeah I will keep recognizing that team as the Team State Champions until the IHSWCA event gets taken over by the IHSAA. As much as I love the event, you can't call yourself a state champion based on a regular season event.
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So the team (my best 14 vs your best 14) that wins the head to head dual meet is not the better team. But the team that scores the most points in an individual tournament that may only showcase each teams best 5-8 wrestler is? And in your opinion this is strictly because the dual meet tournament is not at the very end of the season and it's not ran by the IHSAA.. Got it..

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How about this for team state.

 

Take top two teams from four sectionals for eight regionals, each run as an individual tourney.

 

Then take top team from each regional for an 8 team individual tourney to determine the team state champion.

 

Or put a semi-state individual tourney in between regionals and state, with top two teams from each of four regionals at each of two semi-states.

 

This would take into consideration the breadth and depth of the teams.

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Full wrestle backs is the best answer to getting a true team champion with the current format.  The Blake Jourdan/Brayton Lee match in the ticket round will have significant impact not only on the semi-state team race, but next week's team race as well (I'm sure that there are other examples from other SS).  Full wrestle backs would allow both of them to move on (more than likely) and score much needed team points next week at state.

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How about this....how about we spend empty time arguing endlessly every year on a messageboard behind screen names while Cox and the gang is swimming in our money and nothing gets done??

 

Oh wait, we do that, every year for about the last 15.

Well it at least gives those that are serious about change an opportunity to find a few others who may be willing to work towards the greater good of the sport. Yeah, most of what's said is fairly inconsequential. But opening the discussion is still a necessary first step towards change

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I'm not hating on the conversation. But it's been done over and over and over, w/ no real results. 

 

Exactly what I was trying to say. We have IHSWCA Team State. Lets focus on that and calling those teams the state champions. If the IHSAA does not want to entertain the idea of creating a team state then so be it. IHSWCA Team State is the Team Super Bowl for our team and we are ok with that.

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IHSWCA Team State is the Team Super Bowl for our team and we are ok with that.

This is awesome and I'm glad this event has been such a huge success, especially for schools in 1A and 2A. Hopefully the IHSAA will take it over in the next couple of years so it can be a real state championship again. 

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This is awesome and I'm glad this event has been such a huge success, especially for schools in 1A and 2A. Hopefully the IHSAA will take it over in the next couple of years so it can be a real state championship again. 

Does it has to have IHSAA stamped on it to be a real state championship.     I think the Coaches Association championship is as real as it gets.   The IHSAA might start applying ridiculous rules to and screw it up.  

Edited by Wrestling Scholar
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I used to be a one class supporter..I wrestled at a larger school and coached at a larger school.  Now I coach at a 2A school.  If you believe that a small rural school has the same advantages as a school in a highly populated area then you are either insane or have never spent time in a rural school.  You can have a competitive group of kids, but its highly unlikely you will be competitive year in and year out.  The funny thing about Hickory Hoosiers you never hear about is how did they do the year after all those kids graduated? How did they do the next 10 years? 

 

1.  Limited pool of kids to choose from

2.  Limited access to open mats and other competitors. (our closest would be :30 hour- :45 minutes away)

3.  Limited competition opportunities. 

4.  The best athletes in the school are pulled between 3 different sports. 

5.  Limited resources. 

6.  This is not a wealthy community, families cant spend hundreds of dollars to send kids to camps and trips. 

 

There are so many more disadvantages as compared to metro city schools.  These not only affect the team aspect but they also affect the individuals.  These are not excuses, these are facts. 2 years ago we win Regionals this season we send no one to Regionals. Coaching hasnt changed, size hasnt changed...the difference is a large group of seniors graduate and now we have to rebuild. If a kid quits on our team we have a ff, if a kid gets injured we have a ff.  Other schools have 30+ kids that they reload with, small schools dont have that luxury. 

 

This, exactly this.

 

You know the adage, "Hard work beats talent when talent doesn't work hard!"?  Well, Hard work and no talent can't beat talent that works hard.

 

Same goes for Large Schools vs Small Schools and to some extent, Public vs. Parochial.  The large schools have certain advantages inherent to their size and location.  If their coaching, desire and work ethic match that of a smaller school, they will win out more often than not.  

 

Mater Dei is a different animal as they are a Parochial School.  Parochial Schools have advantages that other 1A schools do not.  In many cases they are in a more urban setting and they are surrounded by several large schools that increases their pool of potential athletes.  Most 1A schools are in a rural setting with zero other schools within a 30 mile radius.  It just isn't apple to oranges.

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Home grown every year.

 

My point was not on recruiting, my point was on potential talent pool.  

 

How many Parochial schools are in a rural area more than 30 miles from a real urban center?

 

There are a lot of advantages from economic, to support structures, etc. in urban areas that have an impact here.

 

That said, Mater Dei is still exceptional.  Some parochial schools have terrible wrestling programs.  There is obviously a long standing tradition at MD and solid coaching that helps maintain a high profile program.

 

I still say that it would be much more difficult to maintain in a true, Rural 1A school system.  No real way to know, so I can only speculate.

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Unfortunately you won't convince anyone that this doesn't happen. It's simply been the mind set for decades.

Mater Dei actually has wrestlers leave because they can make varsity at another school sooner (if ever) than at Mater Dei. I haven't seen anyone "transferring" in since I've been following wrestling the last five years.

 

Again, Castle parent talking here.

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One might think Lafayette Central Catholic would have more interest in wrestling.

I get the feeling the football coach discourages wrestling at LCC, and football is everything at that school.   But its a shame they cant put out an average team.   They're very competitive at most sports except for wrestling.  Its kind of sad. 

But to the point,  Ive been around and seen a lot of wrestlng and its typical to see very good parochial  wrestling programs.  The main advantage is the ability to attract good kids from a large area.  Mater Dei does a great job at what they do,  and they exploit there advantage in drawing good young kids to their program and developing them. 

Edited by Wrestling Scholar
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