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How much longer are we going to go on like this?


decbell1

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I completely understand the rationale behind this since teams with less than 7 wrestlers cannot win a dual against a full team.  However, that's for this season.  The event is for next season.  A team with 6 successful young wrestlers could very likely fill most of the weight classes the next season and be competitive.

 

The only benefit of not counting teams with less than 7 wrestlers at Sectionals is that bigger schools will be bumped down to the lower classes.  A couple of different teams would qualify for the event, a couple others wouldn't qualify.  The downfall is that we're telling struggling programs that they don't count.  Doesn't that go against the purpose of classing the event?  How does excluding teams help their programs grow?

 

        I agree with you, that I don't like the idea of telling struggling programs that they don't count.  

 

        Is it possible that a coach that has aspirations for his team being considered the following season, would possibly work to make sure that he has that 7th wrestler in his sectional lineup come tournament time? 

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Joe, I'll ask again - How does excluding teams help their programs grow?

 

Why can't a team with 5 or 6 solid young wrestlers see how they compare?  A coach could use that as motivation to say "See how we did with just a few guys - let's get more guys so we can do even better."

 

If you're concerned with the data managers wasting their time calculating scores for teams with no chance, don't you think they would have complained if it was really a problem?  I've done it for them.  With the spreadsheets they've created, it's not too difficult to do.

 

Who is saying their scores can't be calculated?  They just wouldn't be figured into the division of the three classes.

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Joe, I'll ask again - How does excluding teams help their programs grow?

 

Why can't a team with 5 or 6 solid young wrestlers see how they compare?  A coach could use that as motivation to say "See how we did with just a few guys - let's get more guys so we can do even better."

 

If you're concerned with the data managers wasting their time calculating scores for teams with no chance, don't you think they would have complained if it was really a problem?  I've done it for them.  With the spreadsheets they've created, it's not too difficult to do.

We can calculate their scores all you want. That's not the issue, the issue is including teams that have virtually no chance of qualifying for the event even with six returning state champions.

 

Those teams are not using the IHSWCA team state to grow their program. Teams with less than seven wrestlers right now have at most 62 points in 1A, the IHSWCA team state is not exactly on their radar. They need more than a "few" more kids on their team to be in consideration.

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So let's exclude 41 schools so that a couple of others can be bumped down a class and qualify?  What is really better for the overall growth of wrestling in the state?

 

What other "rules" can we add to exclude teams with no chance of qualifying?  How about if a team gets beat 80-0 or worse during the season, they don't get included either?  They aren't going to qualify this year.  Why include them when some other team could drop a class and qualify?

 

When lines get drawn, people are going to push it one way or the other to help themselves.  Those in charge just need to keep the big picture and ultimate goal in mind.

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So let's exclude 41 schools so that a couple of others can be bumped down a class and qualify?

Yes, but it's more than a couple can be bumped down, it would be closer to 25 to 1A and 15 to 2A. 25 and 15 are far from a couple.

 

What is really better for the overall growth of wrestling in the state?

The team state duals are doing nothing at all for the programs with less than seven kids on their team. Heck it really does very little for teams with even 10 on their team. Only in your fantasy world do you think a team with 5 kids is saying "hey look we need 100 more points and we qualify, yippee!

 

What other "rules" can we add to exclude teams with no chance of qualifying?

As stated earlier this is my only real complaint about the system.

 

How about if a team gets beat 80-0 or worse during the season, they don't get included either?  They aren't going to qualify this year.  Why include them when some other team could drop a class and qualify?

If they have a full team they have a lot better shot of qualifying than one with 5 kids on their team. It's a lot easier to tell your team, "hey we need to get three more of you to regional and one more to semi-state and we'll be in the running" than "hey we need 8 more guys on the team next year and half need to go to regional for us to qualify."

 

When lines get drawn, people are going to push it one way or the other to help themselves.  Those in charge just need to keep the big picture and ultimate goal in mind.

Why is the line being drawn at 2 wrestlers then? What does a team with 2 varsity wrestlers have that is so much different than one with 3 or 4 in the team state qualifying?

 

In your world that team with 3 wrestlers is using team state to "grow" their program, but you want to exclude the one with 2 wrestlers from the ability to "grow" their program.

 

That's bull honkey and you know it!

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So let's exclude 41 schools so that a couple of others can be bumped down a class and qualify?  What is really better for the overall growth of wrestling in the state?

 

What other "rules" can we add to exclude teams with no chance of qualifying?  How about if a team gets beat 80-0 or worse during the season, they don't get included either?  They aren't going to qualify this year.  Why include them when some other team could drop a class and qualify?

 

When lines get drawn, people are going to push it one way or the other to help themselves.  Those in charge just need to keep the big picture and ultimate goal in mind.

The point is that with less than 7 they have no chance of qualifying anyway. So let's use a pool of schools that do have a chance at qualifying...  Hopefully if a team has 5 or 6 really good wrestlers they will maybe recruit in their school well enough to pick up a couple of wrestlers to get into qualification status. So, maybe it is a little extra motivation to build teams.

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So let's exclude 41 schools so that a couple of others can be bumped down a class and qualify?  What is really better for the overall growth of wrestling in the state?

 

What other "rules" can we add to exclude teams with no chance of qualifying?  How about if a team gets beat 80-0 or worse during the season, they don't get included either?  They aren't going to qualify this year.  Why include them when some other team could drop a class and qualify?

 

When lines get drawn, people are going to push it one way or the other to help themselves.  Those in charge just need to keep the big picture and ultimate goal in mind.

 

Just curious, do you think that we should include those team with 2 or less, in the classification?

 

 

What are your ideas on improving this event?

 

(Apparently, my typing skills are too slow, and Y2 already asked my first question)

Edited by infowrestling
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We should have qualifying tourneys after the season around the state for each class. Your roster for the tourney can only be 8th grade through juniors, because those will be the team y have the next season. Top 2 or 3 teams qualify for next year's event

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Just curious, do you think that we should include those team with 2 or less, in the classification?

 

 

What are your ideas on improving this event?

 

That's not really my decision.  That line was already drawn, and the people in charge voted not to change it.

 

The ideal event would be IHSAA sponsored, classed, all-in duals from start to finish (not just sectional champs), and separate from the individual post season.

 

Bracket tournament of duals on a Saturday, one weeknight dual on Wednesday, then team state the next Saturday.  It would take lots of organizing to make it happen, so the IHSAA would have to be in charge of it and give it the ultimate creditbility.

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We should have qualifying tourneys after the season around the state for each class. Your roster for the tourney can only be 8th grade through juniors, because those will be the team y have the next season. Top 2 or 3 teams qualify for next year's event

Not very many high schools are going to let their teams participate with 8th graders on a high school team.

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So let's exclude 41 schools so that a couple of others can be bumped down a class and qualify?  What is really better for the overall growth of wrestling in the state?

 

What other "rules" can we add to exclude teams with no chance of qualifying?  How about if a team gets beat 80-0 or worse during the season, they don't get included either?  They aren't going to qualify this year.  Why include them when some other team could drop a class and qualify?

 

When lines get drawn, people are going to push it one way or the other to help themselves.  Those in charge just need to keep the big picture and ultimate goal in mind.

 

I still think that best option would be to have a classed, all in event that spanned the course of 2 weekends.....................even in putting together a team tournament of this nature you would have to look at reducing the number of teams, not fielding full teams, for the sake of feasibility.    Ideally, I believe, to improve the event, and the sport in Indiana,  we have to work to move away from scoring a previous season's results. 

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That's not really my decision.  That line was already drawn, and the people in charge voted not to change it.

 

The ideal event would be IHSAA sponsored, classed, all-in duals from start to finish (not just sectional champs), and separate from the individual post season.

 

Bracket tournament of duals on a Saturday, one weeknight dual on Wednesday, then team state the next Saturday.  It would take lots of organizing to make it happen, so the IHSAA would have to be in charge of it and give it the ultimate creditbility.

And you answered neither of the questions, great job.

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That's not really my decision.  That line was already drawn, and the people in charge voted not to change it.

 

The ideal event would be IHSAA sponsored, classed, all-in duals from start to finish (not just sectional champs), and separate from the individual post season.

 

Bracket tournament of duals on a Saturday, one weeknight dual on Wednesday, then team state the next Saturday.  It would take lots of organizing to make it happen, so the IHSAA would have to be in charge of it and give it the ultimate creditbility.

 

"Do you think we should," not "what did someone else decide."

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That's not really my decision.  That line was already drawn, and the people in charge voted not to change it.

 

The ideal event would be IHSAA sponsored, classed, all-in duals from start to finish (not just sectional champs), and separate from the individual post season.

 

Bracket tournament of duals on a Saturday, one weeknight dual on Wednesday, then team state the next Saturday.  It would take lots of organizing to make it happen, so the IHSAA would have to be in charge of it and give it the ultimate creditbility.

 I agree (Again, my slow typing hindered me!)

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That's not really my decision.  That line was already drawn, and the people in charge voted not to change it.

 

The ideal event would be IHSAA sponsored, classed, all-in duals from start to finish (not just sectional champs), and separate from the individual post season.

 

Bracket tournament of duals on a Saturday, one weeknight dual on Wednesday, then team state the next Saturday.  It would take lots of organizing to make it happen, so the IHSAA would have to be in charge of it and give it the ultimate creditbility.

 

The people in charge can vote to change it to make it equitable.  Less than 3 seems arbitrary. 7+ at least gives that team a chance to qualify

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Once again, the point of this thread is:

 

The IHSWCA event is awesome because of the hand we have been dealt. Let's keep bettering it. 

 

 

BUT

 

We can't give up on returning to an IHSAA sponsored TEAM State Tournament. 

Edited by decbell1
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And you answered neither of the questions, great job.

 

I gave my opinion on both questions.  You want my direct answers, fine.  

 

Every IHSAA member school that enters Sectionals should be included, even if it's only 1 or 2 kids.  Yes it's stupid, but fair.  Just be glad I don't get a vote.

 

I have never been to the IHSWCA Team State so I cannot state what specific improvements would make the event better.  When the event was first being developed, I submitted a written proposal for an all-in series where schools could choose to participate or not.  It was discussed and deemed not logistically feasible without a weigh-in exemption from the IHSAA.

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I gave my opinion on both questions.  You want my direct answers, fine.  

 

Every IHSAA member school that enters Sectionals should be included, even if it's only 1 or 2 kids.  Yes it's stupid, but fair.  Just be glad I don't get a vote.

 

I have never been to the IHSWCA Team State so I cannot state what specific improvements would make the event better.  When the event was first being developed, I submitted a written proposal for an all-in series where schools could choose to participate or not.  It was discussed and deemed not logistically feasible without a weigh-in exemption from the IHSAA.

Could you post your original proposal?

Oh you are making laugh. I am imagining you just pecking away at the keyboard...LOL

 

Just one index finger at a time, vito................slow and steady

Edited by infowrestling
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Not very many high schools are going to let their teams participate with 8th graders on a high school team.

 

True, but with it being out of season, I wouldnt see why you couldn't do it. The teams that try want a shot at team state can participate, those you don't wont

Edited by jpt189
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Seems to me if you make it "like" other sports then the IHSAA is more apt. to do it.  If they would extend season by two weeks it could be done nice and organized and in 4 classes how they like it.  Example each sectional say has 8 teams thereabout some may only have 7 (blind draw like all other sports...someone may get a bye)..

 

2 weeks before individual sectionals start round one of 4 team sectional on a Weds. night....next week, same thing..gets you to 8 teams per class that have a semi-state somewhere on Saturday after individual state then the next week you get 4 state championships..You could get creative on how you do it to keep the crowd. you could potentially do a final 4 in all 4 classes and shorten the semi-state idea... I like the coaches thing going on but just spit-balling.  If you want it recognized you have to play by their rules and figure out how to get attendance there which is ultimately why team state went away in the first place.

 

Now obviously you may have some say that we won't get a true champion because the best teams may beat each other in sectional or semi-state, and while true if you want something recognized you have to do it within the small box of imagination that the IHSAA provides.  Other than that go to the old format but have 4 states in 4 different gyms like Bend Davis, Warren Central, North Central and Tech or something or 1A,3A in one and 2 and 4A in another site. Hell you could implement the success factor even and make the tournament more compelling I suppose.

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True, but with it being out of season, I wouldnt see why you couldn't do it. The teams that try want a shot at team state can participate, those you don't wont

What about teams that have guys that play baseball or run track? This would be even more of a problem with smaller schools.

Edited by bwoodjc89
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Seems to me if you make it "like" other sports then the IHSAA is more apt. to do it.  If they would extend season by two weeks it could be done nice and organized and in 4 classes how they like it.  Example each sectional say has 8 teams thereabout some may only have 7 (blind draw like all other sports...someone may get a bye)..

 

2 weeks before individual sectionals start round one of 4 team sectional on a Weds. night....next week, same thing..gets you to 8 teams per class that have a semi-state somewhere on Saturday after individual state then the next week you get 4 state championships..You could get creative on how you do it to keep the crowd. you could potentially do a final 4 in all 4 classes and shorten the semi-state idea... I like the coaches thing going on but just spit-balling.  If you want it recognized you have to play by their rules and figure out how to get attendance there which is ultimately why team state went away in the first place.

 

Now obviously you may have some say that we won't get a true champion because the best teams may beat each other in sectional or semi-state, and while true if you want something recognized you have to do it within the small box of imagination that the IHSAA provides.  Other than that go to the old format but have 4 states in 4 different gyms like Bend Davis, Warren Central, North Central and Tech or something or 1A,3A in one and 2 and 4A in another site. Hell you could implement the success factor even and make the tournament more compelling I suppose.

My best proposal would be this

2 individual classes and a 3 week state tournament

 

4 team classes and the following as the tournament the week of what we now have as sectional

Each class would have approximately 75 teams

You have 16 sectionals with 4-6 teams on Tuesday night, run to a champion

Thursday have 4 regionals with 4 teams on Thursday night, run to a champion

Saturday have 4 from each class and the semi-finals and finals

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