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How much longer are we going to go on like this?


decbell1

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"3A schools have 47% of the wrestlers still in the state tournament and average 8.25 regional qualifiers per team

2A schools have 25% of the wrestlers still in the state tournament and average 5.64 regional qualifiers per team

1A schools have 13% of the wrestlers still in the state tournament and average 3.75 regional qualifiers per"

 

I am just asking but shouldn't this total up to 100%? Where does the other 15% go?

Yes I'll correct it

 

Should have been 

3A 47%

2A 32%

1A 21%

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Tri-Sectional team Scores:

New Castle 244

Knightstown 193.5

Shenandoah 176

Centerville 152

 

Did the energetic small school coaches feel really deflated when they realized they were getting beat badly by New Castle, and when they new the results weren't going to be "Crazy"? Was it like a huge letdown?

 

No we weren't deflated! We had the most champions and actually had the most in the finals! Yes we wanted to get more than 7 thru to regional but with 8 freshmen in the line up we realized it was an uphill battle to knock off the depth of the top dog, New Castle! We had to fft one weight class(medical issues) and we had 2 classes that we scored zero in, one of which weighed in and left prior to competition. Not a bad showing in a sectional that had 2 teams in the 1A team state(Knightstown & Centerville) and a bubble team Eastern Hancock. We finished above 2 of those teams in total points. So no it wasn't a huge letdown to say the least!

Yes I'll correct it

 

Should have been

3A 47%

2A 32%

1A 21%

Thanks, I wasn't being smart just wanted to make sure I wasn't missing something!

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Why are their opinions better than years of data?

 

Why are their opinions better than people who have coached at small and big schools?

 

 

State champions make up about .3%(yes there is a decimal in front of the 3) of the athletes ever to grace the mat in the state. Not sure that kind of sample size is really worth much.

It's an interesting topic, and I was curious if any "weighed" in on it. Surely there are some in head coaching positions at a smaller schools. Wouldn't you think by much of the logic here that they would be pro-multiple individual class tournament?  

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It's an interesting topic, and I was curious if any "weighed" in on it. Surely there are some in head coaching positions at a smaller schools. Wouldn't you think by much of the logic here that they would be pro-multiple individual class tournament?  

I just gazed at the 1A coaches listed on the website and could only identify Courtney Duncan at Frankton as a former state champ.

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I know I saw it 5ish years ago in football or basketball, but cannot recall the school.

Indianapolis Scecina did it for football voluntarily.  Others have been moved up due to the success factor.

They are not that good right now, but not because of moving up.

They are 2nd rank in 2a and 46th over all.  

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I used to be a one class supporter..I wrestled at a larger school and coached at a larger school.  Now I coach at a 2A school.  If you believe that a small rural school has the same advantages as a school in a highly populated area then you are either insane or have never spent time in a rural school.  You can have a competitive group of kids, but its highly unlikely you will be competitive year in and year out.  The funny thing about Hickory Hoosiers you never hear about is how did they do the year after all those kids graduated? How did they do the next 10 years? 

 

1.  Limited pool of kids to choose from

2.  Limited access to open mats and other competitors. (our closest would be :30 hour- :45 minutes away)

3.  Limited competition opportunities. 

4.  The best athletes in the school are pulled between 3 different sports. 

5.  Limited resources. 

6.  This is not a wealthy community, families cant spend hundreds of dollars to send kids to camps and trips. 

 

There are so many more disadvantages as compared to metro city schools.  These not only affect the team aspect but they also affect the individuals.  These are not excuses, these are facts. 2 years ago we win Regionals this season we send no one to Regionals. Coaching hasnt changed, size hasnt changed...the difference is a large group of seniors graduate and now we have to rebuild. If a kid quits on our team we have a ff, if a kid gets injured we have a ff.  Other schools have 30+ kids that they reload with, small schools dont have that luxury. 

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Indianapolis Scecina did it for football voluntarily.  Others have been moved up due to the success factor.

They are 2nd rank in 2a and 46th over all.  

I haven't been paying enough attention.  Thought they started slow this year...

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Changing the IHSAA's views are near impossible. All they care about is money, and could care less about the actual student-athlete. So therefore, we just need to make do with what we have going for us at the moment and keep improving the Team State through trial and error. The fact that we have a coaches association that is willing to put in the time and effort that it takes to put on such an event is something we have taken for granted, and instead want to point out flaws if it doesn't benefit our own team or ideas. You can't please everyone. Yes, every year there are going to be teams that should have been invited and teams that probably shouldn't have been there wrestling. We don't need the IHSAA to prove a Dual Team Champion, and the IHSAA doesn't need us nor care. Make the IHSWCA event a superbowl, get your school and ADs behind it. You can't expect overnight change, but we can constantly improve the state year by year.

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Changing the IHSAA's views are near impossible. All they care about is money, and could care less about the actual student-athlete. So therefore, we just need to make do with what we have going for us at the moment and keep improving the Team State through trial and error. The fact that we have a coaches association that is willing to put in the time and effort that it takes to put on such an event is something we have taken for granted, and instead want to point out flaws if it doesn't benefit our own team or ideas. You can't please everyone. Yes, every year there are going to be teams that should have been invited and teams that probably shouldn't have been there wrestling. We don't need the IHSAA to prove a Dual Team Champion, and the IHSAA doesn't need us nor care. Make the IHSWCA event a superbowl, get your school and ADs behind it. You can't expect overnight change, but we can constantly improve the state year by year.

 

I think an excellent point here is that Coach McCormick and those involved with putting the event together have been willing to take risks and improve upon the event.  Kudos to them!

 

I think it's important to have a constructive dialogue on how the event can be improved, and where the event is going. The more I look at Ohio's rules and guidelines, the more I agree with Fabio........an event that included all teams with 7 or more participants could be a step forward as far as including more, competitive teams and increasing the level competition, especially at the 1A level. 

Edited by infowrestling
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The biggest deficiency right now is that we include teams with less than 7 wrestlers in the calculations.

 

I agree. Why should we go by IHSAA specifications when it is something they don't want to be involved with in the first place. If the Team State is an event sanctioned by the IHSWCA, then make the specifications according to the voting body and not a governing body.

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I agree. Why should we go by IHSAA specifications when it is something they don't want to be involved with in the first place. If the Team State is an event sanctioned by the IHSWCA, then make the specifications according to the voting body and not a governing body.

As stated previously they use IHSAA regulations when it seems fit and then buck them when they also seem fit.

 

 

There is no valid reason why they should include teams with less than 7 wrestlers.

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Could someone do the breakdown of what teams would be in what classes if we used teams that had 7 or more wrestlers with the current numbers?

93 schools in each class, this is without updated forfeits AFTER sectional

Class  Team
1A  Indiana Deaf
1A  Turkey Run
1A  Rockville
1A  Attica
1A  North Vermillion
1A  North White
1A  Tri
1A  Indianapolis Manual
1A  Wood Memorial
1A  Union City
1A  West Central
1A  Tecumseh
1A  Southern Wells
1A  Clinton Prairie
1A  Wes-Del
1A  North Miami
1A  Tri Central
1A  Triton
1A  Clinton Central
1A  Covington
1A  Rossville
1A  Cambridge City Lincoln
1A  Sheridan
1A  Northfield
1A  LaVille
1A  Fremont
1A  Southwood
1A  Hagerstown
1A  Monroe Central
1A  Carroll (Flora)
1A  Hebron
1A  Seeger
1A  Adams Central
1A  South Putnam
1A  Fountain Central
1A  Knightstown
1A  North Knox
1A  Shenandoah
1A  Lake Station Edison
1A  Tell City
1A  South Adams
1A  Eastside
1A  Winamac
1A  Milan
1A  Churubusco
1A  River Forest
1A  Westview
1A  Elwood
1A  Forest Park
1A  Eastern Hancock
1A  Wabash
1A  Central Noble
1A  Cloverdale
1A  Indianapolis Howe Community
1A  Indianapolis Scecina
1A  Northeastern
1A  Frankton
1A  Taylor
1A  Monrovia
1A  Southwestern (Hanover)
1A  Eastern (Pekin)
1A  South Spencer
1A  North Newton
1A  Bluffton
1A  Eastern (Greentown)
1A  Prairie Heights
1A  Winchester
1A  Triton Central
1A  Speedway
1A  Cascade
1A  Delphi
1A  Manchester
1A  Lapel
1A  North Putnam
1A  Cass
1A  Oak Hill
1A  North Posey
1A  Union County
1A  Bremen
1A  Woodlan
1A  Mitchell
1A  Centerville
1A  Southmont
1A  South Vermillion
1A  Eastbrook
1A  Hammond Bishop Noll
1A  Whitko
1A  Alexandria
1A  Knox
1A  Rochester
1A  Blackford
1A  Indianapolis Cardinal Ritter
1A  Wheeler
 
2A  Rensselaer Central
2A  Southridge
2A  Tipton
2A  Jimtown
2A  Northwestern
2A  Western Boone
2A  Salem
2A  Pike Central
2A  West Vigo
2A  Andrean
2A  Fairfield
2A  Benton Central
2A  Heritage Hills
2A  Greencastle
2A  Sullivan
2A  Garrett
2A  Indian Creek
2A  Bishop Luers
2A  Lawrenceburg
2A  Heritage
2A  North Montgomery
2A  Glenn
2A  Princeton
2A  Lakeland
2A  Maconaquah
2A  Brown County
2A  Crawfordsville
2A  Tippecanoe Valley
2A  Calumet
2A  Peru
2A  Indianapolis Bishop Chatard
2A  Gibson Southern
2A  Hamilton Heights
2A  West Lafayette
2A  Hanover Central
2A  Bellmont
2A  Mishawaka Marian
2A  Washington
2A  Evansville Memorial
2A  Corydon Central
2A  Twin Lakes
2A  Greensburg
2A  West Noble
2A  Mount Vernon (Posey)
2A  Charlestown
2A  Guerin Catholic
2A  Fort Wayne Concordia
2A  Rushville
2A  Batesville
2A  Hammond
2A  Norwell
2A  Brebeuf Jesuit
2A  Griffith
2A  Yorktown
2A  Vincennes Lincoln
2A  Danville
2A  Culver Academies
2A  Edgewood
2A  Hammond Clark
2A  Western
2A  Hammond Gavit
2A  Frankfort
2A  Owen Valley
2A  Angola
2A  Northwood
2A  Scottsburg
2A  Delta
2A  Evansville Bosse
2A  Boonville
2A  Franklin County
2A  Beech Grove
2A  South Dearborn
2A  Leo
2A  South Bend St. Joseph
2A  New Haven
2A  Wawasee
2A  New Prairie
2A  Madison
2A  Columbia City
2A  Lebanon
2A  Northview
2A  Bishop Dwenger
2A  Jasper
2A  Kankakee Valley
2A  New Palestine
2A  Jay County
2A  Connersville
2A  Highland
2A  New Castle
2A  Plymouth
2A  Shelbyville
2A  Greenwood
2A  Mount Vernon (Fortville)
 
3A  Evansville Mater Dei
3A  South Bend Washington
3A  Marion
3A  Evansville Harrison
3A  East Chicago Central
3A  Roncalli
3A  Lowell
3A  DeKalb
3A  East Noble
3A  Logansport
3A  Gary West Side
3A  Evansville Central
3A  South Bend Clay
3A  Fort Wayne Wayne
3A  South Bend Riley
3A  Indianapolis Cathedral
3A  Seymour
3A  East Central
3A  Northridge
3A  Hobart
3A  Hammond Morton
3A  Fort Wayne South Side
3A  Mooresville
3A  Evansville Reitz
3A  Pendleton Heights
3A  Richmond
3A  Jennings County
3A  Greenfield Central
3A  Mishawaka
3A  Munster
3A  Columbus East
3A  Plainfield
3A  Martinsville
3A  Bedford North Lawrence
3A  Evansville North
3A  Franklin Community
3A  Concord
3A  Huntington North
3A  Decatur Central
3A  Floyd Central
3A  Bloomington North
3A  Muncie Central
3A  Michigan City
3A  McCutcheon
3A  South Bend Adams
3A  Whiteland
3A  Bloomington South
3A  Harrison (wl)
3A  Fort Wayne North Side
3A  Indianapolis Arsenal Tech
3A  Zionsville
3A  Fort Wayne Snider
3A  Goshen
3A  Terre Haute North
3A  Elkhart Central
3A  Terre Haute South
3A  Kokomo
3A  Anderson
3A  Elkhart Memorial
3A  Westfield
3A  Lafayette Jefferson
3A  Castle
3A  New Albany
3A  LaPorte
3A  Chesterton
3A  Columbus North
3A  Valparaiso
3A  Southport
3A  Warsaw
3A  Carroll(Fort Wayne)
3A  Jeffersonville
3A  Fort Wayne Northrop
3A  Merrillville
3A  Perry Meridian
3A  Lawrence North
3A  Homestead
3A  Lawrence Central
3A  Brownsburg
3A  Center Grove
3A  Portage
3A  Franklin Central
3A  Crown Point
3A  Noblesville
3A  Avon
3A  Fishers
3A  Hamilton Southeastern
3A  Pike
3A  Lake Central
3A  Penn
3A  North Central
3A  Warren Central
3A  Ben Davis
3A  Carmel
None  Indianapolis Arlington
None  Indianapolis Marshall
None  Indianapolis Northwest
None  Randolph Southern
None  Blue River Valley
None  Faith Christian
None  Frontier
None  Indianapolis Lutheran
None  Culver Community
None  South Newton
None  New Washington
None  Pioneer
None  Daleville
None  Lafayette Central Catholic
None  Caston
None  Indianapolis Crispus Attucks
None  North Judson
None  Wapahani
None  Whiting
None  Madison Grant
None  Paoli
None  Switzerland County
None  Providence
None  Crawford County
None  Indianapolis Broad Ripple
None  Boone Grove
None  Tri West
None  Indianapolis Washington
None  Mississinewa
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The biggest deficiency right now is that we include teams with less than 7 wrestlers in the calculations.

 

I completely understand the rationale behind this since teams with less than 7 wrestlers cannot win a dual against a full team.  However, that's for this season.  The event is for next season.  A team with 6 successful young wrestlers could very likely fill most of the weight classes the next season and be competitive.

 

The only benefit of not counting teams with less than 7 wrestlers at Sectionals is that bigger schools will be bumped down to the lower classes.  A couple of different teams would qualify for the event, a couple others wouldn't qualify.  The downfall is that we're telling struggling programs that they don't count.  Doesn't that go against the purpose of classing the event?  How does excluding teams help their programs grow?

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When we stop treating the IHSAA Individual State Point leader like the Team State Champion then I think we will start making some progress. This may sound crazy, but I wonder what the IHSAA would do if the team that scores the most points  at Bankers Life decided not to accept the IHSAA Team Champion trophy. 

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I completely understand the rationale behind this since teams with less than 7 wrestlers cannot win a dual against a full team.  However, that's for this season.  The event is for next season.  A team with 6 successful young wrestlers could very likely fill most of the weight classes the next season and be competitive.

 

The only benefit of not counting teams with less than 7 wrestlers at Sectionals is that bigger schools will be bumped down to the lower classes.  A couple of different teams would qualify for the event, a couple others wouldn't qualify.  The downfall is that we're telling struggling programs that they don't count.  Doesn't that go against the purpose of classing the event?  How does excluding teams help their programs grow?

If a team enters six wrestlers in the state series and they all won state and were underclassmen they would get 150 points. 

 

In 1A and 2A they would be likely in the last voting area to get a bid.

In 3A they would have no chance at a bid.

 

Here are last year's scores for reference

http://indianamat.com/index.php/topic/47812-2016-ihswca-state-duals-qualifying-scores-and-final-selections/

 

If they would be voted into the event with only six wrestlers I think I'd have to invest in about triple the bandwidth on this website.

I would also say that if the coaches of those teams that have less than 7 wrestlers are members of the IHSWCA that they should be included in the IHSWCA event.

If we did that we'd only have about 150 teams eligible for the IHSWCA duals.

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This is the actual breakdown based on sectional results:

 

Class  Team

1A  Turkey Run

1A  Rockville

1A  Attica

1A  North Vermillion

1A  North White

1A  Tri

1A  Wood Memorial

1A  Union City

1A  West Central

1A  Tecumseh

1A  Southern Wells

1A  Clinton Prairie

1A  Wes-Del

1A  North Miami

1A  Triton

1A  Clinton Central

1A  Covington

1A  Rossville

1A  Cambridge City Lincoln

1A  Sheridan

1A  Northfield

1A  LaVille

1A  Fremont

1A  Southwood

1A  Hagerstown

1A  Monroe Central

1A  Carroll (Flora)

1A  Hebron

1A  Seeger

1A  Adams Central

1A  South Putnam

1A  Fountain Central

1A  Knightstown

1A  North Knox

1A  Shenandoah

1A  Lake Station Edison

1A  Tell City

1A  South Adams

1A  Eastside

1A  Winamac

1A  Milan

1A  Churubusco

1A  River Forest

1A  Westview

1A  Elwood

1A  Forest Park

1A  Eastern Hancock

1A  Wabash

1A  Central Noble

1A  Northeastern

1A  Frankton

1A  Taylor

1A  Monrovia

1A  Southwestern (Hanover)

1A  Eastern (Pekin)

1A  South Spencer

1A  North Newton

1A  Bluffton

1A  Eastern (Greentown)

1A  Prairie Heights

1A  Winchester

1A  Triton Central

1A  Cascade

1A  Delphi

1A  Manchester

1A  Lapel

1A  North Putnam

1A  Cass

1A  Oak Hill

1A  North Posey

1A  Union County

1A  Bremen

1A  Woodlan

1A  Mitchell

1A  Centerville

1A  Southmont

1A  South Vermillion

1A  Eastbrook

1A  Whitko

1A  Alexandria

1A  Knox

1A  Rochester

1A  Blackford

1A  Wheeler

1A  Rensselaer Central

1A  Southridge

1A  Tipton

1A  Jimtown

1A  Northwestern

 

2A  Western Boone

2A  Salem

2A  Pike Central

2A  West Vigo

2A  Andrean

2A  Fairfield

2A  Benton Central

2A  Heritage Hills

2A  Greencastle

2A  Sullivan

2A  Garrett

2A  Indian Creek

2A  Bishop Luers

2A  Lawrenceburg

2A  Heritage

2A  North Montgomery

2A  Glenn

2A  Princeton

2A  Lakeland

2A  Maconaquah

2A  Brown County

2A  Crawfordsville

2A  Tippecanoe Valley

2A  Calumet

2A  Peru

2A  Indianapolis Bishop Chatard

2A  Gibson Southern

2A  Hamilton Heights

2A  West Lafayette

2A  Hanover Central

2A  Bellmont

2A  Mishawaka Marian

2A  Washington

2A  Evansville Memorial

2A  Corydon Central

2A  Twin Lakes

2A  Greensburg

2A  West Noble

2A  Mount Vernon (Posey)

2A  Charlestown

2A  Guerin Catholic

2A  Fort Wayne Concordia

2A  Rushville

2A  Batesville

2A  Norwell

2A  Griffith

2A  Yorktown

2A  Vincennes Lincoln

2A  Danville

2A  Culver Academies

2A  Edgewood

2A  Hammond Clark

2A  Western

2A  Hammond Gavit

2A  Frankfort

2A  Owen Valley

2A  Angola

2A  Northwood

2A  Scottsburg

2A  Delta

2A  Evansville Bosse

2A  Boonville

2A  Franklin County

2A  Beech Grove

2A  South Dearborn

2A  Leo

2A  South Bend St. Joseph

2A  New Haven

2A  Wawasee

2A  New Prairie

2A  Madison

2A  Columbia City

2A  Lebanon

2A  Northview

2A  Bishop Dwenger

2A  Jasper

2A  Kankakee Valley

2A  New Palestine

2A  Jay County

2A  Connersville

2A  Highland

2A  New Castle

2A  Plymouth

2A  Shelbyville

2A  Greenwood

2A  Mount Vernon (Fortville)

 2A  South Bend Washington

2A  Marion

 

3A  Evansville Mater Dei

3A  Evansville Harrison

3A  Roncalli

3A  Lowell

3A  DeKalb

3A  East Noble

3A  Logansport

3A  Gary West Side

3A  Evansville Central

3A  South Bend Clay

3A  Fort Wayne Wayne

3A  South Bend Riley

3A  Indianapolis Cathedral

3A  Seymour

3A  East Central

3A  Northridge

3A  Hobart

3A  Hammond Morton

3A  Fort Wayne South Side

3A  Mooresville

3A  Evansville Reitz

3A  Pendleton Heights

3A  Richmond

3A  Jennings County

3A  Greenfield Central

3A  Mishawaka

3A  Munster

3A  Columbus East

3A  Plainfield

3A  Martinsville

3A  Bedford North Lawrence

3A  Evansville North

3A  Franklin Community

3A  Concord

3A  Huntington North

3A  Decatur Central

3A  Floyd Central

3A  Bloomington North

3A  Muncie Central

3A  Michigan City

3A  McCutcheon

3A  South Bend Adams

3A  Whiteland

3A  Bloomington South

3A  Harrison (wl)

3A  Fort Wayne North Side

3A  Indianapolis Arsenal Tech

3A  Zionsville

3A  Fort Wayne Snider

3A  Goshen

3A  Terre Haute North

3A  Elkhart Central

3A  Terre Haute South

3A  Kokomo

3A  Anderson

3A  Elkhart Memorial

3A  Westfield

3A  Lafayette Jefferson

3A  Castle

3A  New Albany

3A  LaPorte

3A  Chesterton

3A  Columbus North

3A  Valparaiso

3A  Southport

3A  Warsaw

3A  Carroll(Fort Wayne)

3A  Jeffersonville

3A  Fort Wayne Northrop

3A  Merrillville

3A  Perry Meridian

3A  Lawrence North

3A  Homestead

3A  Lawrence Central

3A  Brownsburg

3A  Center Grove

3A  Portage

3A  Franklin Central

3A  Crown Point

3A  Noblesville

3A  Avon

3A  Fishers

3A  Hamilton Southeastern

3A  Pike

3A  Lake Central

3A  Penn

3A  North Central

3A  Warren Central

3A  Ben Davis

3A  Carmel

None  Indianapolis Arlington

None  Indianapolis Marshall

None  Indianapolis Northwest

None  Randolph Southern

None  Blue River Valley

None  Faith Christian

None  Frontier

None  Indianapolis Lutheran

None  Culver Community

None  South Newton

None  New Washington

None  Pioneer

None  Daleville

None  Lafayette Central Catholic

None  Caston

None  Indianapolis Crispus Attucks

None  North Judson

None  Wapahani

None  Whiting

None  Madison Grant

None  Paoli

None  Switzerland County

None  Providence

None  Crawford County

None  Indianapolis Broad Ripple

None  Boone Grove

None  Tri West

None  Indianapolis Washington

None  Mississinewa

None East Chicago Central

None  Hammond Bishop Noll

None  Indianapolis Cardinal Ritter

None Brebeuf Jesuit

None Hammond

None Speedway

None Scecina

None Howe

None Cloverdale

None Tri Central

None Indiana Deaf

None Indianapolis Manual

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When we stop treating the IHSAA Individual State Point leader like the Team State Champion then I think we will start making some progress. This may sound crazy, but I wonder what the IHSAA would do if the team that scores the most points  at Bankers Life decided not to accept the IHSAA Team Champion trophy. 

You attract more flies with honey than vinegar.

 

The tough guy attitude with the IHSAA has gotten our sport no where with them. Our coaches association needs to work to rebuild that bridge with the IHSAA big wigs as that will do more than refusing a trophy.

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Joe, I'll ask again - How does excluding teams help their programs grow?

 

Why can't a team with 5 or 6 solid young wrestlers see how they compare?  A coach could use that as motivation to say "See how we did with just a few guys - let's get more guys so we can do even better."

 

If you're concerned with the data managers wasting their time calculating scores for teams with no chance, don't you think they would have complained if it was really a problem?  I've done it for them.  With the spreadsheets they've created, it's not too difficult to do.

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