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How much longer are we going to go on like this?


decbell1

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How much longer can we pretend that we are doing what is best for the sport of wrestling in Indiana?

 

We are killing wrestling at so many programs because so few teams have an opportunity to compete. 

 

We need a team tournament. 

 

We need a format that allows coaches to have team victories. 

 

 

The old argument used to be: Team State only benefits a maximum of 15 teams in the entire state. 

 

The new argument still is the same: Our current format, which is admittedly the best we can do, only really benefits about 15 schools in each class. 

 

The rest of those schools have NOTHING to compete for. 

 

What motivation does a coach at South Side have to grab a guy out of the halls and fill his forfeit spot at 152? None. 

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How much longer can we pretend that we are doing what is best for the sport of wrestling in Indiana?

 

We are killing wrestling at so many programs because so few teams have an opportunity to compete. 

 

We need a team tournament. 

 

We need a format that allows coaches to have team victories. 

 

 

The old argument used to be: Team State only benefits a maximum of 15 teams in the entire state. 

 

The new argument still is the same: Our current format, which is admittedly the best we can do, only really benefits about 15 schools in each class. 

 

The rest of those schools have NOTHING to compete for. 

 

What motivation does a coach at South Side have to grab a guy out of the halls and fill his forfeit spot at 152? None. 

I agree. My son is at a large school, but we have friends at small schools. They are not from top 12-15 in 1A or 2A teams. Very few believe they can get on the state podium. 

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How much longer can we pretend that we are doing what is best for the sport of wrestling in Indiana?

 

We are killing wrestling at so many programs because so few teams have an opportunity to compete. 

 

We need a team tournament. 

 

We need a format that allows coaches to have team victories. 

 

 

The old argument used to be: Team State only benefits a maximum of 15 teams in the entire state. 

 

The new argument still is the same: Our current format, which is admittedly the best we can do, only really benefits about 15 schools in each class. 

 

The rest of those schools have NOTHING to compete for. 

 

What motivation does a coach at South Side have to grab a guy out of the halls and fill his forfeit spot at 152? None. 

 

I have been a fan/advocate of the current team state format because it is a blast to watch, and I know that the individuals who organize and contribute to the event have sacrificed an incredible amount of their time and resources to create and improve upon the product.

 

I agree though...........from here, we have to move towards a classed, all in format, in hopes that it improves the concept of team within our sport.  Would a team work more diligently to field a full lineup, if they knew that they were going to compete in an event like this?  (I think that it would be more likely)  Would other programs become more interested in watching and attending other levels of these event because they competed in the event from the start? (possibly)

 

If we are realistically looking to improve the sport and create something that the IHSAA would possibly adopt, we are kidding ourselves if we are going to continue to go the route of the algorithm rather than the all in format.  If we are looking to only showcase our best teams, then we continue to stay the course.  

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I think the main goal here is to end up with something like Ohio has....beginning of the year you decide if you want to compete in the Team Dual Tourney and then they have Sections, Districts and a team dual tourney...very basic explanation but its fascinating to learn about I highly recommend looking it up

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Here is a link to the Ohio Team State Rules and Regulations:  http://ohsaa.org/sports/wr/boys/wrrglts-team.pdf


I think the main goal here is to end up with something like Ohio has....beginning of the year you decide if you want to compete in the Team Dual Tourney and then they have Sections, Districts and a team dual tourney...very basic explanation but its fascinating to learn about I highly recommend looking it up

 

Is that the main goal?  I don't mind this idea either, but I haven't heard anyone state that we would look at this format. 

 

Something interesting that I noticed in these rules and regulations:

8. ENTRY FORMS AND ELIGIBILITY CERTIFICATES (a) A school that can field a team of 7 weight classes or more is eligible to enter the Dual Team Tournament.

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Here is a link to the Ohio Team State Rules and Regulations:  http://ohsaa.org/sports/wr/boys/wrrglts-team.pdf

 

Is that the main goal?  I don't mind this idea either, but I haven't heard anyone state that we would look at this format. 

 

Something interesting that I noticed in these rules and regulations:

8. ENTRY FORMS AND ELIGIBILITY CERTIFICATES (a) A school that can field a team of 7 weight classes or more is eligible to enter the Dual Team Tournament.

 

Hmm...I'm moving to Columbus on the 14th. Looks like I may have to go watch their State Duals.

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Here is a link to the Ohio Team State Rules and Regulations:  http://ohsaa.org/sports/wr/boys/wrrglts-team.pdf

 

Is that the main goal?  I don't mind this idea either, but I haven't heard anyone state that we would look at this format. 

 

Something interesting that I noticed in these rules and regulations:

8. ENTRY FORMS AND ELIGIBILITY CERTIFICATES (a) A school that can field a team of 7 weight classes or more is eligible to enter the Dual Team Tournament.

Oh we need to include everyone! Those teams with 3 kids are going to be sad if they aren't included.

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The rest of those schools have NOTHING to compete for. 

 

What motivation does a coach at South Side have to grab a guy out of the halls and fill his forfeit spot at 152? None. 

 

Pride? Honor? I know teams that haven't competed at a championship level for a number of years but the coaches and wrestlers show up every day and bust their @$$. Even if there is a classed state tournament, South Side (historically speaking) will not be in the running for a title. Regardless of how the state tournament is run, coaches and schools should have the internal motivation to put their best foot forward and field a complete roster. 

 

Personally, I don't think the size of the school matters. Bellmont has historically beaten every size of school, destroyed teams in the NHC that were 2 or 3 times their size. This isn't football or basketball where we rotate guys off a bench. Yes, depth matters for a number of reasons, but small schools can compete and some big schools suck. It doesn't matter if they are 2,000 kids if you can't find 14 that want to wrestle. The responsibility is the same at each school, find kids, field a roster, if the roster isn't full, go find more kids and eventually you breed a culture and a community that can compete. Instead of pointing the finger and looking for the path of least resistance, find a way that is within your control to make the most out of the current system. 

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3A schools have 47% of the wrestlers still in the state tournament and average 8.25 regional qualifiers per team

2A schools have 32% of the wrestlers still in the state tournament and average 5.64 regional qualifiers per team

1A schools have 21% of the wrestlers still in the state tournament and average 3.75 regional qualifiers per team

 
Each class started with 33% of the entries in the state series.

Pride? Honor? I know teams that haven't competed at a championship level for a number of years but the coaches and wrestlers show up every day and bust their @$$. Even if there is a classed state tournament, South Side (historically speaking) will not be in the running for a title. Regardless of how the state tournament is run, coaches and schools should have the internal motivation to put their best foot forward and field a complete roster. 

 

Personally, I don't think the size of the school matters. Bellmont has historically beaten every size of school, destroyed teams in the NHC that were 2 or 3 times their size. This isn't football or basketball where we rotate guys off a bench. Yes, depth matters for a number of reasons, but small schools can compete and some big schools suck. It doesn't matter if they are 2,000 kids if you can't find 14 that want to wrestle. The responsibility is the same at each school, find kids, field a roster, if the roster isn't full, go find more kids and eventually you breed a culture and a community that can compete. Instead of pointing the finger and looking for the path of least resistance, find a way that is within your control to make the most out of the current system. 

So your reasoning is because you can name some smaller schools that do well and some big schools that aren't very good that there is nothing wrong with our system?  Please read this about anecdotal evidence

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anecdotal_evidence

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So your reasoning is because you can name some smaller schools that do well and some big schools that aren't very good that there is nothing wrong with our system?  Please read this about anecdotal evidence

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anecdotal_evidence

 

That was just one example, I can think of a number of smaller schools that have always been able to compete with the larger schools. If I can win against everyone, why would I want to enter a tournament with lesser opponents and be given a consolation prize when I could have won it all? 

 

Oh... that's right, this is America, so we need to help the needy and disadvantaged so everyone is equal. Why give out 1 trophy when we can give out 3 or 8 or 15? So St. Mary Catholic School for the Blind can receive a bid for the 1A State Tournament, throw a big party in the local square which leads to a rejuvenated excitement for the sport of wrestling. Now everyone at the school wants to wrestle and all of our problems are solved. 

 

Div. 1 basketball should develop 2 or 3 more levels so a school like Butler can compete. I'm sure March Madness' popularity has nothing to do with the 'underdog' or 'Cinderella' stories. I know, I know, we are talking about Butler and they can recruit all across the country and I am comparing apples and oranges, but can't we do some 'recruiting' in our own communities? I'm not saying small school coaches/wrestlers/parents/fans don't care about competing - but if we were really driven by 'making the sport better' - does the state tournament make the difference? 

 

I'll end here because I am sure most of you have tuned out. I work to make the sport better because I am convinced it is one of the best tools to help young men develop. I know they can experience things through the sport that they will not experience elsewhere. If the state tournament changes, it won't make me any more or less motivated to get young men and children involved in the sport. A trophy or title has never been the motivation and if that has become our motivation, maybe we have found the real problem with the sport. 

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Pride? Honor? I know teams that haven't competed at a championship level for a number of years but the coaches and wrestlers show up every day and bust their @$$. Even if there is a classed state tournament, South Side (historically speaking) will not be in the running for a title. Regardless of how the state tournament is run, coaches and schools should have the internal motivation to put their best foot forward and field a complete roster. 

 

Personally, I don't think the size of the school matters. Bellmont has historically beaten every size of school, destroyed teams in the NHC that were 2 or 3 times their size. This isn't football or basketball where we rotate guys off a bench. Yes, depth matters for a number of reasons, but small schools can compete and some big schools suck. It doesn't matter if they are 2,000 kids if you can't find 14 that want to wrestle. The responsibility is the same at each school, find kids, field a roster, if the roster isn't full, go find more kids and eventually you breed a culture and a community that can compete. Instead of pointing the finger and looking for the path of least resistance, find a way that is within your control to make the most out of the current system. 

This is Indiana, home of the  movie Hoosiers and Rudy.   The little guy, the underdog always wins in Indiana.  Doesn't matter about resources, if you have the will, you can win.  If Hickory had a wrestling team, they would get more than 3.75 wrestlers to Regionals.  Rudy would be unseeded, but would upset the #1 seed at 138lbs.

Edited by Wrestling Scholar
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That was just one example, I can think of a number of smaller schools that have always been able to compete with the larger schools. If I can win against everyone, why would I want to enter a tournament with lesser opponents and be given a consolation prize when I could have won it all? 

 

Oh... that's right, this is America, so we need to help the needy and disadvantaged so everyone is equal. Why give out 1 trophy when we can give out 3 or 8 or 15? So St. Mary Catholic School for the Blind can receive a bid for the 1A State Tournament, throw a big party in the local square which leads to a rejuvenated excitement for the sport of wrestling. Now everyone at the school wants to wrestle and all of our problems are solved. 

 

Div. 1 basketball should develop 2 or 3 more levels so a school like Butler can compete. I'm sure March Madness' popularity has nothing to do with the 'underdog' or 'Cinderella' stories. I know, I know, we are talking about Butler and they can recruit all across the country and I am comparing apples and oranges, but can't we do some 'recruiting' in our own communities? I'm not saying small school coaches/wrestlers/parents/fans don't care about competing - but if we were really driven by 'making the sport better' - does the state tournament make the difference? 

 

I'll end here because I am sure most of you have tuned out. I work to make the sport better because I am convinced it is one of the best tools to help young men develop. I know they can experience things through the sport that they will not experience elsewhere. If the state tournament changes, it won't make me any more or less motivated to get young men and children involved in the sport. A trophy or title has never been the motivation and if that has become our motivation, maybe we have found the real problem with the sport. 

So there are 101 small schools, how many of them can "compete" with the big dawgs?

 

Why not have 1 weight class then? Why are we fixated on giving out 14 trophies? When I was at Garrett I had a 106lber that would tech fall our heavyweight, so he shows it can happen.

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I watched the dual between Shenandoah (small school) and New Castle (I guess classified as a big school). The gym was packed, the atmosphere was electric and when Shenandoah beat New Castle those Raider kids were on cloud nine.

I also watched Knightstown (small school) beat Shenandoah by a few points during the season, and Shenandoah squeaking by Tri (extremely small school) - and the atmosphere was just as electric. Those wins all meant something to the kids and the coaches.

It also made the sectional pretty crazy, with several small schools going in hoping they could knock off New Castle.

If you would have saw how much energy those coaches were putting into those matches, you'd not think they were doing it for nothing. It meant something to them.

Wrestling is a sport you either love or hate. There will probably always be number swings in participation. But I think the system right now is pretty darn good.

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It also made the sectional pretty crazy, with several small schools going in hoping they could knock off New Castle.

If you would have saw how much energy those coaches were putting into those matches, you'd not think they were doing it for nothing. It meant something to them.

Wrestling is a sport you either love or hate. There will probably always be number swings in participation. But I think the system right now is pretty darn good.

Tri-Sectional team Scores:

New Castle     244

Knightstown    193.5

Shenandoah    176

Centerville       152

 

Did the energetic  small school coaches feel really deflated when they realized they were getting beat badly by New Castle, and when they new the results weren't going to be "Crazy"?   Was it like a huge letdown? 

Edited by Wrestling Scholar
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Not sure what you are trying to say, Scholar? You don't think they went in thinking they had a shot? Yes, New Castle had more depth and won. Which might not be the case in the coming years.

Are you insinuating that everyone who lost will somehow lose the will to wrestle because their efforts did not result in the sectional championship? Shenandoah had more champions than New Castle. Centerville had as many champions as New Castle. Knightstown had as many champions as New Castle. I'd say it was a pretty competitive sectional. Perhaps I'm reading your comment incorrectly.

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Not sure what you are trying to say, Scholar? You don't think they went in thinking they had a shot? Yes, New Castle had more depth and won. Which might not be the case in the coming years.

Are you insinuating that everyone who lost will somehow lose the will to wrestle because their efforts did not result in the sectional championship? Shenandoah had more champions than New Castle. Centerville had as many champions as New Castle. Knightstown had as many champions as New Castle. I'd say it was a pretty competitive sectional. Perhaps I'm reading your comment incorrectly.

 

Are we no longer talking about the Team State event? 

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I used to always oppose class wrestling on any level. 

Then I came around to understanding that class wrestling for teams is necessary and good for Indiana wrestling. 

 

I am now on the verge of at least understanding the concept of classing individual wrestling.  However, I stll find something troubling.

 

Mater Dei - is no question one of the best teams in the state, but would not be 3A if they followed strict class rules.  We understand that they are an outlier, so we let them compete at the 3A level.  But why do we do this?  I agree they should be placed in 3A for the team tournament.  But will they also be in 3A for the individual?  If so, why do they get placed in 3A and someone from another 1 or 2A school doesnt get the chance to see if he could beat most of those 3A kids? 

 

In a previous thread it was mentioned that kids would love to win a state championship and it wouldnt matter what class it was in.  If that was the case, then why wouldnt there be a strict 1A, 2A, 3A line drawn?  Maybe there would be I just haven't been sold that class wrestling is needed for the individual just yet.  (But I'm saying there is a chance.)

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I used to always oppose class wrestling on any level. 

Then I came around to understanding that class wrestling for teams is necessary and good for Indiana wrestling. 

 

I am now on the verge of at least understanding the concept of classing individual wrestling.  However, I stll find something troubling.

 

Mater Dei - is no question one of the best teams in the state, but would not be 3A if they followed strict class rules.  We understand that they are an outlier, so we let them compete at the 3A level.  But why do we do this?  I agree they should be placed in 3A for the team tournament.  But will they also be in 3A for the individual?  If so, why do they get placed in 3A and someone from another 1 or 2A school doesnt get the chance to see if he could beat most of those 3A kids? 

 

In a previous thread it was mentioned that kids would love to win a state championship and it wouldnt matter what class it was in.  If that was the case, then why wouldnt there be a strict 1A, 2A, 3A line drawn?  Maybe there would be I just haven't been sold that class wrestling is needed for the individual just yet.  (But I'm saying there is a chance.)

The IHSAA allows for teams to go up in class if they choose to do so. It is rare, but does occur sometimes.

 

2-3 Classification by Enrollment; Different Classes Assignment; Change Class Assignment

School enrollment figures used for classifying Schools shall be the enrollment in grades 9-12 for all students, as certified in the annual report filed with the State Department of Education in a classification year.

 

a. Schools with single gender enrollment shall double the certified enrollment figures for classification purposes.

 

b. A School may be assigned to different Classes in different sports.

 

c. A School shall be assigned to a Class by the IHSAA and shall enter the IHSAA tournament in that assigned Class unless it notifies the Association, in writing, that it wishes to move up One (1) or more Classes. This notification shall (1) accompany the submission of the School’s enrollment figures and (2) be effective for the succeeding Two (2) years. A School may choose to move up in a specific sport/s.

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Also, what is the rule on homeschool participation in the IHSAA?  I know there are some homeschool teams in volleyball and soccer around the Michiana/Ft.Wayne section of the state.  Can home schoolers join a given team that is geographically close or one in the district that is assigned to them by the state tax office?  Just curious how that works.  Konrath's case had me wondering if he could compete in the IHSAA if he wanted to and not attend his previous high school to instead be homeschooled.

Edited by busstogate
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at a small school, there is actually a better chance to build a strong and lasting wrestling program than for other sports.  why?  because smaller schools have much smaller talent pools from which to choose.  many times, especially country and small-town schools, will have a strong football or basketball team because of a great class of skilled position players that act as the cornerstone of a championship team.  graduation comes, outsized talent goes out the door and the team returns to a .500 record.

 

what hoosiers love more than anything is a winner.  build it and they will come.  build a great feeder program, get kids involved, parents excited and in a little while you have a solid high school team.  put an exciting team on the mat that wins and you have a crowd.  momentum will create a platform for lasting success.

 

tecumseh, a school of about 300 kids, went to team state last year and brought a great crowd.  at the central sectional, their fan count was only eclipsed by mater dei (another 1a school).  little bitty tecumseh brought more fans than 4a schools, North or Central!  the flip side of this is a succesful wrestling program some large schools.  cathedral possesses one of indiana's all-time great wrestling programs.  if you went to any of the ihsaa team state events, you could not help but notice cathedral's small fan base.  cathedral has tremendous success with their sports programs; i would guess that wrestling is simply "one of many" and does not warrant a big following.  i can tell you first-hand, that tecumseh's success was a big deal to their fans!

 

i will wager than virtually every wrestling team in the state has a least one kid, that through hard work and determination, has made himself into a competitive wrestler.  put together a group of these kids and you field a good wrestling team.  regardless of what a basketball or football coach will tell you, it does not happen in those sports.  you can't teach size, hand/eye coordination or God-given speed.  wrestling is one of the very few high school sports in which kids with average athletic skills can consistently win in via sheer determination.

Edited by hook and half
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