Indiana Forfeit Data 2016

[Smooth34]

Maybe Indiana loses more athletes, especially at small school, to basketball than other states. Basketball is still extremely popular in Indiana.  I know it's probably popular in Kansas as well.  

 

Has the IHSWCA Team Championships helped numbers at 1A school like Triton? They've always been a good basketball program. Have these classed events helped their numbers? Or is their recent success (getting invited to the IHSWCA event) just been the exception with a couple of good classes?

[Y2CJ41]

Maybe Indiana loses more athletes, especially at small school, to basketball than other states. Basketball is still extremely popular in Indiana.  I know it's probably popular in Kansas as well.  

 

Has the IHSWCA Team Championships helped numbers at 1A school like Triton? They've always been a good basketball program. Have these classed events helped their numbers? Or is their recent success (getting invited to the IHSWCA event) just been the exception with a couple of good classes?

Many small school coaches have said their teams are affected positively by IHSWCA team duals. I believe this is very good and shows on a smaller scale how much success can help a program. However, we are only affecting 10-15 teams out of 100 with this. If we were to go to classed individual tournament we would be able to affect a lot more teams.

[NLCards]

Just as a heads up I added data from Michigan for last year to the original spreadsheet. Once again their small schools are doing better.

 

Why are Indiana's big schools doing better? There are a few reasons that I can think of

 

1. We have less inner-city schools. If we add in another 20 inner-city schools our big school forfeits would suffer. Obviously with Kansas this doesn't fly.

 

2. Big schools have success both individual and team success aka sectional and regional titles on the team side and state success on the individual side. When a team has success more kids want to be a part of it.

 

3. With class wrestling you don't see good coaches changing divisions to attain success as much. For instance I know Richmond in Michigan had a VERY successful coach that stayed at his school for like 30 years and retired there. The same thing you see in football where coaches like Bud Wright(Sheridan) and Bill Sharpe(Jimtown) have stayed at their smaller schools. In Indiana our better coaches flock to big schools because if you want to have success you are WAY better off at a big school.

1. Maybe

 

2. This is a non-starter. All you have done is stated why our large schools have less FFs than our small schools. Kansas and Ohio large schools have just as much opportunity for team and individual success as ours, arguably more since they aren't competing against smaller schools that might actually have some studs and good teams. Yet -- they have more FFs at those larger schools than us.

 

3. Again -- this says nothing as to why, according to your data, class wrestling hurts large schools. It says why small schools might be more successful in a class system (they can keep a good coach) but says nothing as to why large schools would suffer in a class system.

[Y2CJ41]

1. Maybe

 

2. This is a non-starter. All you have done is stated why our large schools have less FFs than our small schools. Kansas and Ohio large schools have just as much opportunity for team and individual success as ours, arguably more since they aren't competing against smaller schools that might actually have some studs and good teams. Yet -- they have more FFs at those larger schools than us.

 

3. Again -- this says nothing as to why, according to your data, class wrestling hurts large schools. It says why small schools might be more successful in a class system (they can keep a good coach) but says nothing as to why large schools would suffer in a class system.

Believe what you want, but #2 and 3 are true.

 

Big schools have more success and thus will have more kids out for the team. The sports that have the higher numbers are the ones with success. 75% of the state qualifiers are from big schools and on top of that 96 of 101 3A schools have had a state qualifier over the past 6 years while only 56 1A teams have had a state qualifier. I guarantee the teams in 1A with those state qualifiers have significantly more team members than the ones without one.

 

If coaches like Bud Wright and Bill Sharpe were in wrestling they would have left their tiny schools a long time ago for bigger pastures. As a coach you want to put yourself in a situation that is best for success. In wrestling in Indiana that formula almost ALWAYS includes the size of the school. Whether you want to believe it or not that is the truth.

[Thor]

Maybe Indiana loses more athletes, especially at small school, to basketball than other states. Basketball is still extremely popular in Indiana. I know it's probably popular in Kansas as well.

 

Has the IHSWCA Team Championships helped numbers at 1A school like Triton? They've always been a good basketball program. Have these classed events helped their numbers? Or is their recent success (getting invited to the IHSWCA event) just been the exception with a couple of good classes?

Triton has a very competitive team and was at team state this year. Their wrestling program seems to be headed in a good direction.

[RASSLER4LIFE]

Data can be skewed as well to fit ones needs or ideas.

[KarlHungus]

Data can be skewed as well to fit ones needs or ideas.

 

Is  this a passive aggressive of saying that Y2 has purposely changed the data so that it is not true or accurate?  

[Y2CJ41]

Data can be skewed as well to fit ones needs or ideas.

Still waiting on your data, not holding my breath though.

[RASSLER4LIFE]

Take it however you want, I guess. The article I shared was from a newspaper in Pennsylvania, so it's credible. It was to show that if a state with Pennsylvania's strong heritage and connection to wrestling is suffering with the number of forfeits and they are classed, that it could be something else Not the lack of class wrestling here in Indiana.

Where did you get your data? Did you compile it? Did you research each state's teams? I find it hard to believe you were able to retrieve it all so quickly!

Edited January 29, 2016 by RASSLER4LIFE

[bog190]

Take it however you want, I guess. The article I shared was from a newspaper in Pennsylvania, so it's credible. It was to show that if a state with Pennsylvania's strong heritage and connection to wrestling is suffering with the number of forfeits and they are classed, that it could be something else Not the lack of class wrestling here in Indiana.

Where did you get your data? Did you compile it? Did you research each state's teams? I find it hard to believe you were able to retrieve it all so quickly!

 

Probably made it up right?  That would make the most sense.

[RASSLER4LIFE]

I searched last night and had a difficult time finding hard data facts. What I did find was that many articles talked about the growing number of forfeits and what they could do as a group to improve upon the numbers. Many of those ideas have been shared on this topic already. I am not sure what the answer is but it's not just an Indiana thing. Do you remember they wanted to remove wrestling from the Olympics? Seems like the problem maybe be bigger than you all seem to think!!

[Wrestling Scholar]

Triton has a very competitive team and was at team state this year. Their wrestling program seems to be headed in a good direction.

My wife teaches at a small school that has a wrestling program, and having 7 or 8 wrestlers out  in a season is  good year for them.    They've had a lot of turnover in coaching and they easily could be put on a chopping block if the AD couldn't find a new coach, or a was going on a cost saving venture.   But those kids work hard and wrestling is great for them, even with limited resources.     They love the attention when somebody watches them or even asks about their matches.    Their sectional is the equivalent to their state championship.   I think they've only  had one kid ever make it to semi-state.     Looking around our area,  I see quite a few smaller schools in the same boat.  These are programs with low participation struggling to improve.    From my perspective I think there's more small schools like Triton. 

[Rookies03]

Honestly debating the classed thing is pointless. The IHSAA is never going to change unless all individual sports get together and want it. I'm guessing that other individual sports are just as divided as wrestling so I don't see a change regardless if the "pro classed" are right or the pro "one class" are right.

 

But what can the wrestling community do to encourage more participation??? More triple duals on sat would be a great start so kids and families won't be in a gym all freakin day. Changing the singlet will help. Yes some kids will never get past the tight fitting uniform but it will help. Making duals more fun is a great way to promote the sport. I have seen a few duals where elementary dual, middle school dual and high school dual occur all at the same time on 3 mats. Great way to fill a gym!

 

When I was growing up we had PE and wrestling was apart of the curriculum. I know a lot of school corps are eliminating formal PE programs but what if high schools offered to have elementary and/or middle schools to take a field trip to the high school during PE to have wrestling added back into the curriculum. This can expose the kids at a very early age to build interest in the sport.

[KarlHungus]

I searched last night and had a difficult time finding hard data facts. What I did find was that many articles talked about the growing number of forfeits and what they could do as a group to improve upon the numbers. Many of those ideas have been shared on this topic already. I am not sure what the answer is but it's not just an Indiana thing. Do you remember they wanted to remove wrestling from the Olympics? Seems like the problem maybe be bigger than you all seem to think!!

The World Wide Web is a big place.  I might suggest that you were not looking in the right spots.

[Wrestling Scholar]

Take it however you want, I guess. The article I shared was from a newspaper in Pennsylvania, so it's credible. It was to show that if a state with Pennsylvania's strong heritage and connection to wrestling is suffering with the number of forfeits and they are classed, that it could be something else Not the lack of class wrestling here in Indiana.

Where did you get your data? Did you compile it? Did you research each state's teams? I find it hard to believe you were able to retrieve it all so quickly!

This isn't Y2's first rodeo on this topic.  He has a gigantic safe of data from past debates at the tip of his fingers.     If you don't believe him,  you could probably audit the data fairly quickly.

[NLCards]

Believe what you want, but #2 and 3 are true.

 

Big schools have more success and thus will have more kids out for the team. The sports that have the higher numbers are the ones with success. 75% of the state qualifiers are from big schools and on top of that 96 of 101 3A schools have had a state qualifier over the past 6 years while only 56 1A teams have had a state qualifier. I guarantee the teams in 1A with those state qualifiers have significantly more team members than the ones without one.

 

If coaches like Bud Wright and Bill Sharpe were in wrestling they would have left their tiny schools a long time ago for bigger pastures. As a coach you want to put yourself in a situation that is best for success. In wrestling in Indiana that formula almost ALWAYS includes the size of the school. Whether you want to believe it or not that is the truth.

I'm not saying #2 and #3 are untrue. What I am saying is that they don't answer the question I asked. While they are both very good arguments for how class wrestling can help smaller schools, they don't answer, "Why do Kansas and Ohio (and now also Michigan) have LESS participation in wrestling at large schools than Indiana?" That is the question that I am interested in.

[Wrestling119]

I'm not saying #2 and #3 are untrue. What I am saying is that they don't answer the question I asked. While they are both very good arguments for how class wrestling can help smaller schools, they don't answer, "Why do Kansas and Ohio (and now also Michigan) have LESS participation in wrestling at large schools than Indiana?" That is the question that I am interested in.

 

Because a lot of kids want to be professional video game players now. I mean it is even on TNT now...

[Y2CJ41]

I searched last night and had a difficult time finding hard data facts. What I did find was that many articles talked about the growing number of forfeits and what they could do as a group to improve upon the numbers. Many of those ideas have been shared on this topic already. I am not sure what the answer is but it's not just an Indiana thing. Do you remember they wanted to remove wrestling from the Olympics? Seems like the problem maybe be bigger than you all seem to think!!

Many state tournaments are on TrackWrestling. That makes it VERY easy to compile data for specific states.

 

Forfeits are an issue everywhere, but for some odd reason the small schools in other states aren't doing as poorly as in Indiana. It's probably just dumb luck or stat manipulation though.

[Y2CJ41]

I'm not saying #2 and #3 are untrue. What I am saying is that they don't answer the question I asked. While they are both very good arguments for how class wrestling can help smaller schools, they don't answer, "Why do Kansas and Ohio (and now also Michigan) have LESS participation in wrestling at large schools than Indiana?" That is the question that I am interested in.

No it didn't fit what you wanted me to say.

 

Success breeds numbers and thus less forfeits. Big schools in Indiana have much more success than in other states because they are at a SEVERE advantage over the smaller schools. Prairie Heights has more kids on their roster than Fremont, Carroll has more than Homestead...one of the big reasons...SUCCESS.

 

The better coaches in Indiana are mostly at BIG schools, thus again they are going to have better numbers. In classed states the better coaches aren't enticed as much to move to schools that are bigger. For instance, if I was still at Garrett and we were winning 1A sectional and regional titles I would have been even less likely to jump to a school 3X bigger. The same reason Tonte, Harper, and many other coaches started at smaller schools and are not at bigger ones.

[RASSLER4LIFE]

We lost 3 kids off our team before the season. 1 moved out of state(middle school state runner-up), 1 went to a larger school and 1 passed away. The one that went to a larger school could easily be a state qualifier this year, the one that moved probably just a regional qualifier and the one that passed away was a semi state qualifier last year at 113. We likely will get 8-9 to regional this year even without these 3 mentioned above and hope to get 5-6 to semistate. That's a huge accomplishment if we can pull it off. We have a little over 400 kids in our top 4 grades. We lose kids to basketball that at a larger school the kid might give wrestling a try, idk. Wrestlers have a special mentality and it usually goes hand in hand with a "never say die" attitude. The greater the number of kids to choose from increase your chance to find those special individuals, period. We have worked hard to get our numbers up, you have to bring excitement to the room, the meets. I am still not convinced that classing wrestling will grow the sport, from what statistics Y2 has shared, I have my doubts.

[NLCards]

No it didn't fit what you wanted me to say.

 

Success breeds numbers and thus less forfeits. Big schools in Indiana have much more success than in other states because they are at a SEVERE advantage over the smaller schools. Prairie Heights has more kids on their roster than Fremont, Carroll has more than Homestead...one of the big reasons...SUCCESS.

 

The better coaches in Indiana are mostly at BIG schools, thus again they are going to have better numbers. In classed states the better coaches aren't enticed as much to move to schools that are bigger. For instance, if I was still at Garrett and we were winning 1A sectional and regional titles I would have been even less likely to jump to a school 3X bigger. The same reason Tonte, Harper, and many other coaches started at smaller schools and are not at bigger ones.

 

Ok -- so you believe that class wrestling actually hurts large schools. Which leads me to my second (and more important) question. Why is it OK to hurt one group of athletes (large school wrestlers) in order to help a second group of athletes (small school wrestlers)? And does hurting one group in order to help another really mean that class wrestling "works?"

[Wrestling Scholar]

I'm not saying #2 and #3 are untrue. What I am saying is that they don't answer the question I asked. While they are both very good arguments for how class wrestling can help smaller schools, they don't answer, "Why do Kansas and Ohio (and now also Michigan) have LESS participation in wrestling at large schools than Indiana?" That is the question that I am interested in.

Here's my theory on this.   The Indiana big schools are really big especially when compared to other states,  and as a result they have more of a student population of kids to pull from.   You would expect Indiana to have higher participation rates and less forfeits.   For example Carmel, which is the largest has 4,830.   I just looked up in Ohio and the largest was William Mason at 3,350.   The largest high school in Kansas is 2301.      I know   a historical effort in Kansas has been to keep schools under 2,000   as a study indicated they functioned better.  Note there are 18 schools in Indiana bigger than the biggest school in Kansas.      So what i'm saying the average size of school in Indiana is a lot bigger than KS or OH,  partly due to population density, but even the Indiana small schools are on average bigger than the small schools in our example which gives them an advantage in fielding full teams.

Edited January 29, 2016 by Wrestling Scholar

[Smooth34]

Triton has a very competitive team and was at team state this year. Their wrestling program seems to be headed in a good direction.

Agreed.  I guess what I was asking is: Has recent success/perceived future success in classed competitions helped their numbers or is this a blip because of a few good classes.  Is it trending up for the foreseeable future?  Or is it a momentary spike?

[Y2CJ41]

Ok -- so you believe that class wrestling actually hurts large schools. Which leads me to my second (and more important) question. Why is it OK to hurt one group of athletes (large school wrestlers) in order to help a second group of athletes (small school wrestlers)? And does hurting one group in order to help another really mean that class wrestling "works?"

Aren't we hurting our small schools with our current system? Why is it fine to hinder our small schools so that our big schools can have success?

[Smooth34]

If coaches like Bud Wright and Bill Sharpe were in wrestling they would have left their tiny schools a long time ago for bigger pastures. As a coach you want to put yourself in a situation that is best for success. In wrestling in Indiana that formula almost ALWAYS includes the size of the school. Whether you want to believe it or not that is the truth.

Jimtown does have a Hall-of-Fame wrestling coach and he hasn't left his tiny school.