warsawwrestling Posted January 27, 2016 Share Posted January 27, 2016 I am not for changing up brackets, but for ending the finals with 132 weight class if he makes it to the finals. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bwoodjc89 Posted January 27, 2016 Share Posted January 27, 2016 I'll use the Ohio method as an example. For the state tournament, they have similar 16 man brackets. But they just seed the winner of each regional, based on prior state placement. The other 3 wrestlers just follow the slot of the 1st place wredtler. Very simple and you avoid having the two top wrestlers meeting in the semis. But this system is not already in place here. I am saying you can't change the system now. Change it for next year or two years from now. This state series has already started and you can't tinker with the state brackets this year. I can get behind changing it to the last match of the night Saturday night if it happens. Wrestling Scholar 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wrestling Scholar Posted January 27, 2016 Share Posted January 27, 2016 But this system is not already in place here. I am saying you can't change the system now. Change it for next year or two years from now. This state series has already started and you can't tinker with the state brackets this year. I can get behind changing it to the last match of the night Saturday night if it happens. Of course you cant change rules in the middle of the season, and not relevant this year. But in future years, it would help improve the chance of the top two wrestlers seeing each other in the finals match. Of course this is very unlikely to occur in future years either due to Indiana's reluctance to change the status quo, but its a good idea. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldandbroke Posted January 27, 2016 Share Posted January 27, 2016 Changing brackets to insure the best two meet in the finals is a slippery slope........in this case there are two heavy favorites. In other weights it is very debatable who the top two are, and who gets that decision????? Changing up the starting weight each year is great idea and would be something to explore in a year or two but I think it's best left there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Y2CJ41 Posted January 27, 2016 Share Posted January 27, 2016 Well there is a 33% chance they meet in the semi-finals and a 66% chance in the finals as long as both win semi-state. I like the odds. bwoodjc89 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wrestling Scholar Posted January 27, 2016 Share Posted January 27, 2016 (edited) Changing brackets to insure the best two meet in the finals is a slippery slope........in this case there are two heavy favorites. In other weights it is very debatable who the top two are, and who gets that decision????? Changing up the starting weight each year is great idea and would be something to explore in a year or two but I think it's best left there. Is seeding sectionals a slippery slope? Come on. Its not like coaches are voting on whose the best guy. It's based totally on predetermined criteria. In Ohio, it based simply based on the prior years state tournament finish. For example if you have a semi-state winner who is a prior year state champ, and the three other semi-state champs placed 2nd, 4th and 6th in prior state. Then the SS with state champ would face the SS whose winner took 6th. The respective 2nd and 4th SS would face each other. If none of the SS champs placed then you just draw like it currently is done. Its just a simple wrinkle but creates a better situation. You could expand the criteria to head to head completion within he season, but Im sure people wouldn't like that. Edited January 27, 2016 by Wrestling Scholar Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMILL Posted January 27, 2016 Share Posted January 27, 2016 (edited) lets be very clear on here for all the readers.................NO ONE IS TALKING ABOUT CHANGING THE BRACKETS ON THIS THREAD.......its changing the order of weight classes for the state finals so that if Red v Lee happens it can be the last feature match Sat eve (I do not agree with this but got tired of everyone mis-interpreting the idea first put out there and continually saying "changing the brackets to make sure the best two wrestlers meet is a slippery slope"......not being said end of story. Good Luck to all wrestlers !!! Edited January 27, 2016 by JMILL Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wrestling Scholar Posted January 27, 2016 Share Posted January 27, 2016 (edited) lets be very clear on here for all the readers.................NO ONE IS TALKING ABOUT CHANGING THE BRACKETS ON THIS THREAD.......its changing the order of weight classes for the state finals so that if Red v Lee happens it can be the last feature match Sat eve (I do not agree with this but got tired of everyone mis-interpreting the idea first put out there and continually saying "changing the brackets to make sure the best two wrestlers meet is a slippery slope"......not being said end of story. Good Luck to all wrestlers !!! We were talking and debating about theoretical future changes on how to improve the chances of the best wrestlers wrestling in the finals. I don't see a big benefit of changing the order for one match like Lee vs Red. I think it would be unfair to take away the spotlight of all the other kids that earned their spot to get to the finals. Edited January 27, 2016 by Wrestling Scholar Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FRESHMAN119 Posted January 27, 2016 Share Posted January 27, 2016 Being from the South and seeing James vs. Joe Lee not under the lights last year at State, infuriated me. I could not believe the IHSAA could not have made this happen just from the ticket sales revenue standpoint alone. We got to see a wonderful match in the semis and thinking we would have an anticlimactic Finals with Cash vs. Lee. Could not have been more wrong. Could care less where or when it happens (Lee vs, Red) Friday night, Saturday morning, Saturday night, I will be there grinning and thankful I got an early Christmas present. Be thankful for what we got. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thor Posted January 27, 2016 Share Posted January 27, 2016 Anticlimactic? Lee vs Cash was one of, if not the best matches of last years finals. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wrestling119 Posted January 27, 2016 Share Posted January 27, 2016 Anticlimactic? Lee vs Cash was one of, if not the best matches of last years finals. He said he was wrong in his thinking that it would be anticlimactic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thor Posted January 27, 2016 Share Posted January 27, 2016 He said he was wrong in his thinking that it would be anticlimactic. Ok my bad misread it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
base Posted January 27, 2016 Share Posted January 27, 2016 In my opinion, don't change the draws -- so sometimes the most anticipated matches happen in the semifinals, but without reseeding the whole bracket I dont' see that changing. However, I don't see any reason to not set the order of weight classes for the finals during the dinner break. Every year, the poor heavyweights get screwed as half of the fans head out to get a jump start on traffic. I'd say during the dinner break, ask all of the coaches with athletes in the finals to put in a vote for the "headline" weight. When the last session begins, announce the order. I don't think it lessens the other athletes -- they are under the lights!! It will be a benefit to the 220/285 athletes, and will also likely keep a majority of fans around longer into the evening. Coach Nieman and KyleM 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wrestlenewbie Posted January 27, 2016 Share Posted January 27, 2016 about the wisest statement I've read on here for months. To be honest this match-up has been so hyped up for years I'm not that pumped to see it. Especially how people think we should alter "the format" during the postseason. Mason vs Kobe is just as intriguing; are we going to change it around for then too? Sorry about the late addition, but it has been a busy day at work. Not pumped to see it? I could wet my pants I'm so excited. As for re-arranging, I think there is a strong pro argument that it actually respects the other wrestlers too. You can only come to that conclusion if you acknowledge the reality that the late matches are more poorly attended. By putting the marquee match-up last you have a consistent crowd throughout the night. You force the fans to see the other matches which will invariable feature some amazing moments that they may miss otherwise. In that way you can make fans of partisans. If, however, you want to believe that the late wrestlers only having their core constituency around is more respectful, then you arrive at the conclusion that re-arranging is disrespectful. It is true that there is a great deal of subjectivity in the decision process, particularly if you have a year where there could be equally strong arguments for which match should be most marquee. But, on balance I still think it has merits. pjayroza 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
statechamp87 Posted January 27, 2016 Share Posted January 27, 2016 media decides just like in all other sports. make the finals a separate session and whichever "storyline" fox sports Indiana chooses gets to be last. that's how tv works. that's why and how the ncaa does it. UncleJimmy 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
old school 2 Posted January 28, 2016 Share Posted January 28, 2016 To the only pure sport left in our society, where anybody can accomplish the maximum potential from what they put in!!! Getting up at 4 in the morning to go to gym, go to class, get out of school, go to practice, go back to gym, go home, do homework till ungodly hours in morning to get to bed and start all over again. That is the true reality of a wrestler who gives his all. Win or lose, they know when they walk off that mat that they are special. Did all they could at that moment. WRESTLING WILL MAKE THESE KIDS BETTER!!! Doesn't matter if it is under the lights or Friday night or whatever. No way can anyone who has ever been a part of this sport think that this discussion is valuable. it is not about two kids. It is about the sport. It is so much bigger than all this BS chatter. Coach Nieman 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KyleM Posted January 28, 2016 Author Share Posted January 28, 2016 How exactly is this BS chatter? backtothemat 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
runner-up Posted January 28, 2016 Share Posted January 28, 2016 I'm for changing the order of the finals matches. For this match particularly, as well as other great match-ups. But I think the changing of weight class order in the finals could really help sport to grow as well. The big guys never get the respect the my deserve. I get it: the standard mediocre heavyweight match-- ear-to-ear, attempting throw-bys and shucks until someone falls down and gets rolled to their back--is not as fun as the 145 pounders moving athletically around the mat in scramble after scramble. But the state finals match is the marquee match up for this weight class. It often features colossal athletes who are often pretty light on their feet and very technically savvy. Why do people leave before witnessing these matches? I have found these just as thrilling as most other championship match-ups. I feel bad that these kids are wrestling their butts off for a state championship, and at least 1/8th of the people in the building (if not closer to 1/3rd) have their backs turned to them and are walking up the steps. And it isn't just heavyweight. I notice people start packing up after 152 and 160. If we could move some of these match ups forward and some of the more anticipated back, I think overtime we would witness more depth at these weight classes. I think the younger guys destined to be heavyweights (weather it be genetics, a lot of lifting, or too many all-you-can-eat buffets) and other heavier weights (195 and 220 as well) would see these great match ups and start to emulate their styles at a much younger age. I don't have stats to back up my hypothesis, it is just a gut feeling. Feel free to disagree. But long term, I am also for seeding at the state meet. I know it would be tricky. I know it is contraversial. I just can't wrap my mind around how we don't have a better way of pairing match ups, especially with how we don't do full wrestle backs of the placers. Sometimes the wrestler who gets fifth could arguably have been the second or third best wrestler in that weight class. Granted, I know that the state tournament isn't about correctly ranking the top 8 wrestlers and that it is designed to crown a champion. But still, it just baffles me. I'm sure we could implement a system, like the Ohio one mentioned earlier in the thread, that would keep heavily favorited wrestlers on opposite ends of the bracket. I know in my time as a wrestler/coach/spectator, I have seen many a semi-finals match that would have been better suited under the lights than the ensuing match that ended up taking place instead. But back to the original point: how do we make it so the IHSAA would consider adjusting the weight class order? I know it would be a tough battle to win, but I'm all for trying. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Novice Bat Posted January 28, 2016 Share Posted January 28, 2016 I think that it should be no big deal to switch up the order just for the finals. I realize that changing up the brackets would allow for all sorts of criticism and open up a can of worms on themselves. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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