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The IHSAA was right.


Barrq

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Paul you are right...Let me give you a typical week around this time

 

M- HS Practice 320-530ish, Beginners youth 545-645 Intermediate yourth 645-745

T- HS Practice 320-530ish, Beginners youth 545-645 Intermediate yourth 645-745

W- HS Practice 320-530ish, Occasionally Dual meet

Th- HS Practice 320-530ish, Beginners youth 545-645 Intermediate yourth 645-745

F- HS Practice 320-530ish, Elite youth 600-700

Sat- HS Tournament

Sun-Youth Tournament

 

Work 8 hours a day on top of that

Looks very familiar Nick, I feel your pain or should I say #paintrain?

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I agree Joe. Guess my point is how do we get those good guys to stay at those small schools? I have softened on the whole individual class thing over the years. How many guys are coming back and coaching? Seems like we need to extend our coaching trees to take jobs at other places. Maybe a class system creates some of those guys?

You can't keep them, there is no way to keep coaches at those positions when the reality is a sectional title on the team side is the pinnacle of what you will realistically accomplish. At the end of the day coaches want to succeed and they will put themselves in an environment that gives them the best chance at it.

 

When I was at Garrett people would ask if I'd ever leave and my token response was "for the right situation." Roughly translated...bigger school. Don't think for a second the size of Carroll was NOT a major factor in my move. I personally wasn't looking at Churubusco, Fremont, or Eastside. Don't think for a second that Tonte wasn't drooling at the chance to have 1400 more kids to choose from at Warren. Don't think for a second that Harper didn't like the fact that he would have 2500 more kids at Penn to work with. The school size wasn't the only factor, but it definitely is one that is used in determining your best fit for success.

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My son had a good SAT score, had around a 3.4 GPA, was national honor society and was a 3x state qualifier and BSU was substantially cheaper for us. It does seem as though state ran universities tuition has gone up more drastically versus private institutions over the last 10 years. That is the time frame he was pursuing a degree.

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   Ill add D3 schools like Wabash cant give athletic scholarships, but Ive heard the coaches work the system to get more academic for their athletes.    My son was looking at IU, but we came in $5K per year better than IU with our private school tuition.

I can pretty much verify this.  I went to Wabash as a football player but decided not to continue playing once I arrived on campus. After my first year I mysteriously lost $5,000 per year in "grants" that I was allotted as a freshman. 

I am pretty sure this isn't specific to Wabash but likely all D3 schools.

 

I loved my time at Wabash (03-07) and paid about the same (even after losing the 5 grand) as the state schools. 

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Paul you are right...Let me give you a typical week around this time

 

M- HS Practice 320-530ish, Beginners youth 545-645 Intermediate yourth 645-745

T- HS Practice 320-530ish, Beginners youth 545-645 Intermediate yourth 645-745

W- HS Practice 320-530ish, Occasionally Dual meet

Th- HS Practice 320-530ish, Beginners youth 545-645 Intermediate yourth 645-745

F- HS Practice 320-530ish, Elite youth 600-700

Sat- HS Tournament

Sun-Youth Tournament

 

Work 8 hours a day on top of that

 

When do you have time for the cat, your 6 different game systems, WWE wrestling and quality time for TheGreatSeymour ?

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I do wonder if class sports will eventually become a Title IX issue in Indiana.  Boys and girls from Indiana in track, wrestling, swimming and tennis are denied opportunities that athletes in Illinois, Ohio, Michigan and many other states have with class competition.  One of the prongs of Title IX is opportunity and publicity.  

 

If you are in the small school class in Ohio for wrestling or swimming, you are getting opportunities for publicity.  One could claim Indiana boys and girls do not receive the same level of publicity or accommodation.  

 

It would be interesting if Indiana coaches associations from multiple sports pushed jointly for a classed system.  It would be curious to see the ihsaa's response to a Title IX position taken by a collective of coaches associations.  

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I haven't posted in a long time. Thankful this message board exists since it keeps me up-to-date on all the growth wrestling has been experiencing in depth and number in the state of Indiana. However, this topic has definitely solicited a response.

 

Please explain how class will help our depth. Some of the states like Illinois, Pennsylvania or Ohio have a population that is twice ours. So therefore maybe that's the reason they have classes in wrestling or could be why they have more depth of talent.

 

Classing wrestling will absolutely increase depth. For muliple reasons but first larger populations naturally provide a larger pool of athletes, simply common sense and cannot be refuted. However, I can attest first hand that Texas (my current home) a much larger state in both geography and population than Indiana and any of the states previously mentioned does not possess the depth of Indiana wrestling much less that of Ohio, Pennyslvania, or Illinois. Also, states like Tennessee, Florida, and Georgia (just to name a few) have larger populations than Indiana and it can be argued Indiana is a better wrestling state any of the previously mentioned. Therefore, to chalk it up to simply having a larger population cannot be the correct answer in gauging talent depth. If talent depth were simply a matter of numbers then Indiana would be better than Minnesota, Wisconsin, and Iowa and California, Texas, Florida, and New York would be our national powers.

1) the more wrestlers that qualify for semi-state or state increases exposure. The more wrestlers that receive exposure to college coaches the greater their opportunity to compete at the collegiate level and an increased likelihood to move back to their state postgraduation and participate in the wrestling community.

2) winning is contagious. If a small school starts to achieve regular success (even in a single class system) not so miraculously participation naturally increases. People naturally like being part of a successful movement it is a great source of pride. If classing wrestling affords more schools and most importantly wrestlers the opportunity to receive exposure and recognition within their community and in the eyes of potential college coaches/recruiters we should move toward that direction. 

 

I believe the more accurate gauge in a states depth is a combination of the number of colleges/universities that offer wrestling programs within a given state or geographic region (since it provides a student-athlete the opportunity if they so choose to compete past their highschool career), the growth and development of youth programs, and the overall perception of the sport in a given location. It takes time to develop a wrestling culture and this site and creative events such as the Indianamat Preseason Open and the new IHSWCA classed-state duals are awesome additions to Indiana high school wrestling.

 

 Cost could become a factor where a kid may choose Ball State over Wabash so they end up hanging up their shoes instead of competing at college level.

 

A little bit about my resume I currently work for Texas A&M University. And have previously worked for Indiana Wesleyan University and Arizona State University. Cost of attendance is entirely a case-by-case basis. It is a variety of factors such as GPA/SAT/ACT scores, religious affiliation (in the case of some private institutions), athetlic and academic merit based aid, applying for outside scholarships, internships, work-study, if they are a 1st generation college student, number of siblings in their household, parents income, if they are from a single or multi-parent home, the states budget and dollars allocated to funding postsecondary education. Cost COULD absolutely be a factor but that is a blanket statement and only has validity as such. Therefore, everyone will have a different experience in calculating the cost of higher education it cannot be simply chalked up to the cost of college without knowing every single wrestlers background.

Edited by FormerHornet
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Well said... and nicely supported with documentation and solid rationale.  I second this motion.

 

With respect to KarlHungus's question to me...  I said "doubtful" simply because the IHSAA has traditionally and steadfastly said they will not class any "individual" sports.  The IHSWCA doesn't have any type of hidden agenda to "keep" the Team State Duals or "let go" of the team state duals to the IHSAA.  We simply feel that it feels an important niche in Indiana's wrestling community AND it's the right thing to do.  In my dealing with the IHSAA over the years they have made it very clear that their individually classified sports will not be classed.  (** you never know though... strange things sometimes happen... maybe 2016 will bring signs of change.)

Will or has the IHSWCA discussed creating its own classed individual tournament separate from the IHSAA single class individual tournament? I'm guessing scheduling is a major issue here. Would it be possible that Al Smith and other tournaments could function in it or be used for seeding and/or qualification into such a tournament?

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FormerHornet: all of your points are well thought out and you response seems valid as well. I would agree that population alone does not dictate success. Isn't Texas relatively new on the wrestling scene? I also think culture and the mentality of your state's population play a huge roll in their success. The top states take pride in their wrestling prowess. Where as Indiana has always been known for its basketball and Florida and Texas for it's football. Changing our state's culture would be a daunting task. I do agree that athletes that have wrestled collegiately and have returned back to Indiana have given our sport a very big boost in the quality of our wresting. Over the course of the last few years I think Indiana's best have probably never been better and it shows on how we perform at national level events. I thank you for your input and your extended knowledge but I personally like the one class state champ. Maybe a new topic about class wrestling where actual coaches from all corners of our state could weigh in on their preference of the system.

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Will or has the IHSWCA discussed creating its own classed individual tournament separate from the IHSAA single class individual tournament? I'm guessing scheduling is a major issue here. Would it be possible that Al Smith and other tournaments could function in it or be used for seeding and/or qualification into such a tournament?

 

The IHSAA gave the IHSWCA their blessing for us to run the Classed Team State Duals four years ago.  Actually, anyone could run a "classed", local tournament if they wanted to, but we, the IHSWCA, felt like it was better to ask the IHSAA permission since running a championship type event could have been perceived as stepping on their toes (since the dropping of the IHSAA single class team state duals event was such a hot topic at that time).

 

Having said all of that, the IHSWCA would not have the authority to run a "post season" classed tournament.  That is the IHSAA's territory.

 

Despite some scheduling and facility challenges, we have the best situation that we could have right now in hosting a mid-season classed team state duals event.

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Isn't Texas relatively new on the wrestling scene? I also think culture and the mentality of your state's population play a huge roll in their success.

 

To be fair I am not firmly aware of how new to "the wrestling scene" Texas actually is. And would not feel comfortable speaking with confidence regarding their tenure in wrestling. The state of Texas undoubtedly has athletes and given quality coaching and time it could eventually become a perennail power. However, it will be an uphill battle, football reigns supreme (like Indiana and basketball). Changing a culture is difficult: nonetheless Ohio, Pennyslvania, Michigan, New York, and Illinois (to name a few) are quality basketball and wrestling states. Indiana doens't have to be either a wrestling state or basketball state. However, unlike the previously listed states Indiana is undoubtedly the most basketball crazed state in the entire country but that is largely due to the fact that Indiana has very well developed youth basketball programs, a large number of student-athletes have an opportunity to compete post highschool due to exposure, and sustained success.

 

 I do agree that athletes that have wrestled collegiately and have returned back to Indiana have given our sport a very big boost in the quality of our wresting.

 

Bingo! "Athletes that have wrestled collegiately and have returned back to Indiana have given our sport a very big boost in the quality of wrestling." Could not have said it better myself. If classing wrestling allows for more students to have the opportunity compete post high school then their will be more former collegiate wrestlers potentially returning to Indiana postgraduation to further enhance the sport in Indiana.

 

There is a cultural perception football, basketball, and baseball opens doors that others sports cannot (and technically this is true for about 1% of the US population that have the opportunity to become professionals). I wholeheartedly believe that the success of the UFC is contributing and can continue to contribute to the growth of wrestling. However, yet again only an extremely small % of the population will possess such an opportunity. Most students from high schools in Indiana possess friends that either competing collegiately in basketball, baseball, or football. A much smaller % have friends that are competing collegiately in wrestling. Regardless of acknowledgement the perception that an athlete can advance post high school helps with growing a sport and is one of many factors that contributes to developing a strong culture. If classing wrestling affords more wrestlers the opportunity the chance to compete collegiately good will come from it. 

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The IHSAA gave the IHSWCA their blessing for us to run the Classed Team State Duals four years ago. Actually, anyone could run a "classed", local tournament if they wanted to, but we, the IHSWCA, felt like it was better to ask the IHSAA permission since running a championship type event could have been perceived as stepping on their toes (since the dropping of the IHSAA single class team state duals event was such a hot topic at that time).

 

Having said all of that, the IHSWCA would not have the authority to run a "post season" classed tournament. That is the IHSAA's territory.

 

Despite some scheduling and facility challenges, we have the best situation that we could have right now in hosting a mid-season classed team state duals event.

Thank you for the information and for our current team state dual tournament. I know I may have complained about seating and sight lines, but this tournament is something the AC wrestling fans can look forward to. We wouldn't have the opportunities we do now in the old format trying to compete with your squad and Bellmont. I think it revived our program or at least kept it from a slight decline. Edited by casualwrestlingfan
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I do wonder if class sports will eventually become a Title IX issue in Indiana.  Boys and girls from Indiana in track, wrestling, swimming and tennis are denied opportunities that athletes in Illinois, Ohio, Michigan and many other states have with class competition.  One of the prongs of Title IX is opportunity and publicity.  

 

If you are in the small school class in Ohio for wrestling or swimming, you are getting opportunities for publicity.  One could claim Indiana boys and girls do not receive the same level of publicity or accommodation.  

 

It would be interesting if Indiana coaches associations from multiple sports pushed jointly for a classed system.  It would be curious to see the ihsaa's response to a Title IX position taken by a collective of coaches associations.

 

  

Will or has the IHSWCA discussed creating its own classed individual tournament separate from the IHSAA single class individual tournament? I'm guessing scheduling is a major issue here. Would it be possible that Al Smith and other tournaments could function in it or be used for seeding and/or qualification into such a tournament?

 

A couple of quick thoughts.

1. An all in IHSWCA classed individual tourney would be nearly impossible given how scheduling works.

2. I don't believe that the IHSWCA should or would push for classing the individual tournament given that any time polling has been conducted on the subject a majority of the coaches have responded that they prefer to have a one class individual tournament. There is a very vocal minority that would like to see a classed tournament, but a majority of the state is still against it.

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A couple of quick thoughts.

1. An all in IHSWCA classed individual tourney would be nearly impossible given how scheduling works.

2. I don't believe that the IHSWCA should or would push for classing the individual tournament given that any time polling has been conducted on the subject a majority of the coaches have responded that they prefer to have a one class individual tournament. There is a very vocal minority that would like to see a classed tournament, but a majority of the state is still against it.

Agree on the schedule being hard. I was saying to have both classed and single class individual tournaments. The classed being like the Al Smith kind of tournaments. As you said, I doubt it would be popular in discussing. However it might help grow the sport in smaller schools like ours. Maybe not but who knows.

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A couple of quick thoughts.

1. An all in IHSWCA classed individual tourney would be nearly impossible given how scheduling works.

2. I don't believe that the IHSWCA should or would push for classing the individual tournament given that any time polling has been conducted on the subject a majority of the coaches have responded that they prefer to have a one class individual tournament. There is a very vocal minority that would like to see a classed tournament, but a majority of the state is still against it.

I would rather the IHSWCA go after important topics like

-Allow for an exemption of one tournament or wrestling meet outside of the 300 mile competition rule.

-allowing schools the option to participate in “triangular meets” (3 teams/2 dual meets) that would count as two points toward a team’s four mandatory dual meets

-Allow for the 28 man sectional entry roster to permit student athletes to be put in at their lowest      qualifying weight, but to move up multiple weight classes if needed.

 

Amongst other fantastic ideas

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I would rather the IHSWCA go after important topics like

-Allow for an exemption of one tournament or wrestling meet outside of the 300 mile competition rule.

-allowing schools the option to participate in “triangular meets” (3 teams/2 dual meets) that would count as two points toward a team’s four mandatory dual meets

-Allow for the 28 man sectional entry roster to permit student athletes to be put in at their lowest qualifying weight, but to move up multiple weight classes if needed.

 

Amongst other fantastic ideas

The IHSAA doesn't want wrestlebacks. The coaches from around the state don't want class wrestling, do you have any suggestions for what the IHSWCA should go after?

The IHSAA doesn't want wrestlebacks. The coaches from around the state don't want class wrestling, do you have any suggestions for what the IHSWCA should go after?

Sorry I misread your comment, those all seem like fine suggestions. Edited by buscowrestling
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Mandatory sweater vests for all coaches

Mandatory for everyone to list their losses in a seeding meeting

Mandatory use of trackwrestling for results

Only one two-day event allowed for 2 points, all others are 2 points per day
More clarification on the weight loss plan
Start practice one week earlier with 3 weeks before competition
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Mandatory sweater vests for all coaches

Mandatory for everyone to list their losses in a seeding meeting

Mandatory use of trackwrestling for results

Only one two-day event allowed for 2 points, all others are 2 points per day
More clarification on the weight loss plan
Start practice one week earlier with 3 weeks before competition

 

AND NO BLUE JEANS

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I would rather the IHSWCA go after important topics like

-Allow for an exemption of one tournament or wrestling meet outside of the 300 mile competition rule.

-allowing schools the option to participate in “triangular meets” (3 teams/2 dual meets) that would count as two points toward a team’s four mandatory dual meets

-Allow for the 28 man sectional entry roster to permit student athletes to be put in at their lowest      qualifying weight, but to move up multiple weight classes if needed.

 

Amongst other fantastic ideas

 

This changed this year.

IHSAA BY-LAW

60-2 The maximum number of season wrestling dual meets in which any team or student may participate, excluding the IHSAA Tournament Series, shall be Eighteen (18); however, a team or student may participate in additional season tournaments (an interschool wrestling meet which involved Three (3) or more schools is a tournament) up to a maximum of Seven (7), provided each tournament counts as Two (2) of the Eighteen (18) dual meets. A triangular meet (double dual) is counted as Two (2) dual meets towards a team’s Four (4) dual meet maximum permitted. Each weigh-in for any tournament shall count as only One (1) weigh-in toward the minimum requirements for IHSAA Tournament Series qualifi cation.

Edited by chambers
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This changed this year.

IHSAA BY-LAW

60-2 The maximum number of season wrestling dual meets in which any team or student may participate, excluding the IHSAA Tournament Series, shall be Eighteen (18); however, a team or student may participate in additional season tournaments (an interschool wrestling meet which involved Three (3) or more schools is a tournament) up to a maximum of Seven (7), provided each tournament counts as Two (2) of the Eighteen (18) dual meets. A triangular meet (double dual) is counted as Two (2) dual meets towards a team’s Four (4) dual meet maximum permitted. Each weigh-in for any tournament shall count as only One (1) weigh-in toward the minimum requirements for IHSAA Tournament Series qualifi cation.

Shouldn't that read "A triangular meet (double dual) is counted as Two (2) dual meets towards a team’s Four (4) dual meet minimum permitted" ?

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