Coach Nieman Posted December 30, 2015 Share Posted December 30, 2015 Thanks maligned. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
InTheCircle Posted December 30, 2015 Share Posted December 30, 2015 The committee did destabilize the event. Placing the last three state champions in a single pool seems a bit over the top. It kind of makes you scratch your head and wonder if some old scores were being settled. Real issue with an unbalanced draw is it allows a self fulfilling prophesy to be created. Say, for example, Cathedral loses narrow matches in the tuffest pool and places 9th. The seeding committee can say ‘we’re right. Cathedral places low once again.’ But a person could see Cathedral placing higher if they were in a different pool. Or let’s say Perry narrowly defeats Penn and Cathedral, but uses so much emotional and physical energy that they are spent and lose to Brownsburg. The committee can say, ‘we’re right. Perry is 3rd.’ Such self fulfilling prophesies can become quite convenient justifications after the fact when teams have been align so as to produce desired outcomes. Bruins2013 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Y2CJ41 Posted December 30, 2015 Author Share Posted December 30, 2015 Cathedral was in a random draw, they were not to be seeded due to losses to the #7 and #8 seeds. They did not have the luck of the Irish. Is it such a travesty if they are with Brownsburg and Lawrence North? They'd still likely be going for 9th there. Or with Warren and Avon...they'd still be likely going for 9th there. Or if they are with Mater Dei and Portage...again likely going for 9th there..... No wonder there was no tin foil today as all you Penn fans have been wearing it on your head this week. JMILL 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigdanteague Posted December 30, 2015 Share Posted December 30, 2015 Is there a reason behind not live streaming this event? Increase physical attendance? Protect scouting? I'm just curious, it would be great for ppl unable to attend to still have access. Broadcasting these types of events whether it be Flo, BTN, or ESPN has only helped our sport. Lack of effort by association. One guy does about 90% of the organizing. decbell1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
quinnsDAD Posted December 30, 2015 Share Posted December 30, 2015 I'd call it Warren Penn Portage BB EMD Perry Avon Carroll JC Cathedral LN HSE. just my 2 cents how are y2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M109R Posted December 31, 2015 Share Posted December 31, 2015 Cathedral was in a random draw, they were not to be seeded due to losses to the #7 and #8 seeds. They did not have the luck of the Irish. Is it such a travesty if they are with Brownsburg and Lawrence North? They'd still likely be going for 9th there. Or with Warren and Avon...they'd still be likely going for 9th there. Or if they are with Mater Dei and Portage...again likely going for 9th there..... No wonder there was no tin foil today as all you Penn fans have been wearing it on your head this week. The Foil must be working , as we just won another Al Smith team title . BeastMode#31 and ontherise219 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hook and half Posted December 31, 2015 Share Posted December 31, 2015 The committee did destabilize the event. Placing the last three state champions in a single pool seems a bit over the top. It kind of makes you scratch your head and wonder if some old scores were being settled. Real issue with an unbalanced draw is it allows a self fulfilling prophesy to be created. Say, for example, Cathedral loses narrow matches in the tuffest pool and places 9th. The seeding committee can say ‘we’re right. Cathedral places low once again.’ But a person could see Cathedral placing higher if they were in a different pool. Or let’s say Perry narrowly defeats Penn and Cathedral, but uses so much emotional and physical energy that they are spent and lose to Brownsburg. The committee can say, ‘we’re right. Perry is 3rd.’ Such self fulfilling prophesies can become quite convenient justifications after the fact when teams have been align so as to produce desired outcomes. It is tuff. Move CAT to any of the other quarter brackets, and they still get two losses hung on them. Destabilizing AND tuff Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M109R Posted December 31, 2015 Share Posted December 31, 2015 It is tuff. Move CAT to any of the other quarter brackets, and they still get two losses hung on them. Destabilizing AND tuff I think Cathedral is better than what people think , with the current lineup . I could swear they were missing guys when they lost to Avon , and they just barely lost to a very good Portage team . I don't think anyone wants to wrestle Cathedral. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BeastMode#31 Posted December 31, 2015 Share Posted December 31, 2015 M109- you are correct, Cathedral did not have Stewart or Guhl when they faced Avon/Warren/Bellmont. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NIaGrad Posted December 31, 2015 Share Posted December 31, 2015 I am not sure what all the fuss is about. I am just glad someone is putting it all together as we can't depend on the IHSAA to do it. It is the champion that everyone remembers and if you beat everyone, that is you regardless of where you were seeded. Trying to seed a team of teenage kids with the outcome also depending on individual match ups, which may be adjusted at the last second seems to be dicey at best. If the organizers have agreed on a reasonable criteria and they stick by it, I will back them up. If the results of the criteria isn't what we in our own biases think is right, then we should just live with it and work to change the criteria if you think it is wrong. Remember though, the change you make may work against you next year. Mattyb and mockdad79 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Y2CJ41 Posted December 31, 2015 Author Share Posted December 31, 2015 The Foil must be working , as we just won another Al Smith team title . Congrats...but it sounds like all your fans are still scared to wrestle Catherdral. Penn04 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigdanteague Posted December 31, 2015 Share Posted December 31, 2015 Naw only the hwt (or coaches) were scared to wrestle round one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LongBlackLine Posted December 31, 2015 Share Posted December 31, 2015 (edited) Congrats...but it sounds like all your fans are still scared to wrestle Catherdral. Not if it's the same lineup they used against Brownsburg Edited December 31, 2015 by LongBlackLine TeamGarcia and Fabio Jr. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M109R Posted December 31, 2015 Share Posted December 31, 2015 (edited) Congrats...but it sounds like all your fans are still scared to wrestle Catherdral. Since when when does saying a team is better than people think , mean that the fans are scared to wrestle them? Edited December 31, 2015 by M109R Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Y2CJ41 Posted December 31, 2015 Author Share Posted December 31, 2015 Since when when does saying a team is better than people think , mean that the fans are scared to wrestle them? Since all the Penn fans are getting on here crying about their draw and calling it a conspiracy. Indysportsfan 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DLane Posted December 31, 2015 Share Posted December 31, 2015 (edited) Mooresville Holiday Classic had some Cathedral vs Brownsburg match ups. I know its not a dual meet, but I think BB beats Cath in a dual just off these results Team Scores 1. Brownsburg 289.5 2. Cathedral 218.0 3. Yorktown 207.0 4. Jennings County 195.0 5. Castle 189.0 106: Mills (BB) pin Waldenzak (Cath) 113: no match ups - Weaver (BB, 1st) Slivka (Cath, 3rd) 120: no match ups - Mulkey (BB, 1st) Cath DNP 126: no match ups - Bailey (Cath, 1st) BB DNP 132: Melloh (Cath) dec Bigelow (BB) 9-3 138: Allen (BB) dec Devine (Cath) 9-3 145: Lee (BB) TF Bagwell (Cath) 152: Owens (BB) pin Hill (Cath) 160: no match ups - Glover (BB, 6th) Cath DNP 170: no match ups - Walton (BB, 1st) Cath DNP 182: Rypel (Cath) Maj Damler (BB) 14-3 195: Stewart (Cath) dec McCormick (BB) 4-2 220: no match ups - Guhl (Cath, 3rd) Cicciarell (BB, 5th) 285: Clark (BB) pin Obst (Cath) Edited December 31, 2015 by DLane Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Indysportsfan Posted December 31, 2015 Share Posted December 31, 2015 Since all the Penn fans are getting on here crying about their draw and calling it a conspiracy. Would it be possible for you to make a larger generalization about a fan base? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UncleJimmy Posted December 31, 2015 Share Posted December 31, 2015 Harper's Army circling the wagons No kidding Indyfan! Circling the wagons? Looks more like a victory lap with the Al Smith trophy! Somebody have some Pen(n)is envy? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hook and half Posted December 31, 2015 Share Posted December 31, 2015 (edited) Would it be possible for you to make a larger generalization about a fan base? Indy- You make a very good point. The fortunate (or unfortunate) thing about message boards is that the very vocal minority become the de facto spokespersons for their school's fan base. Witness the 13-14 season, a certain Hobart coach's non-stop drum beating predicting a "Black-Out" state podium run. Remember? What did that do for Hobart's reputation? What did that do for the freshman wrestler? Did it help him, or hurt him? This year's Warren Central team is a force of nature. I have vivid memories of Caliboy. Somewhere, right now, between his Crayola snacks, Cailboy is adjusting his drool bucket and contemplating a new screen name. Brownsburg has a tremendous team and looks to be a player for the foreseeable future. This is great for Indiana wrestling and a model for programs that wish to take the step. That being said, #paintrain, #bringthepain, #bringthepaintrain, #atbrowsburgwebringthepaintrain....is exhausting. You want a lot of attention; be careful what you ask for. On the other hand, I could be wrong. Drum-beating, whining, self-promotion and smack talk could be the key to intimidating the opposition and putting your team over the top. Pardon, the "over the top" pun. Completely unintentional. Edited December 31, 2015 by hook and half UncleJimmy and bog190 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maligned Posted December 31, 2015 Share Posted December 31, 2015 To summarize some 3A results from the holiday tournaments: Brownsburg finishes higher than Cathedral, 10 weights to 4. EMD finishes above Avon in 8 weights at the EMD classic (same number of weights won by Brownsburg in dual against Avon). Looking closer, all 3 tossup weights (two 1-pointers and an injury) went to Avon against Brownsburg (suggesting 9-5 might be a more typical split if they wrestle many times). EMD finishes ahead of Avon by one spot 3 times, while Avon finished ahead of EMD by one spot only once (suggesting the 8-6 split is a generous expectation in EMD's favor for a dual against Avon). Penn finishes ahead of Portage in 7 of 14 weights--the same as the result at the Harvest Classic. All this to say again...these 4 teams plus Perry look very, very evenly matched. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hook and half Posted December 31, 2015 Share Posted December 31, 2015 (edited) To summarize some 3A results from the holiday tournaments: Brownsburg finishes higher than Cathedral, 10 weights to 4. EMD finishes above Avon in 8 weights at the EMD classic (same number of weights won by Brownsburg in dual against Avon). Looking closer, all 3 tossup weights (two 1-pointers and an injury) went to Avon against Brownsburg (suggesting 9-5 might be a more typical split if they wrestle many times). EMD finishes ahead of Avon by one spot 3 times, while Avon finished ahead of EMD by one spot only once (suggesting the 8-6 split is a generous expectation in EMD's favor for a dual against Avon). Penn finishes ahead of Portage in 7 of 14 weights--the same as the result at the Harvest Classic. All this to say again...these 4 teams plus Perry look very, very evenly matched. Holy smokes! How do i get access to the Maligned wrestling super-computer?!?! I have a date with my wife tonight...can you run some scenarios and probabilities for me? #malignedeatspaintrainsforbreakfast Edited December 31, 2015 by hook and half bog190 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maligned Posted December 31, 2015 Share Posted December 31, 2015 (edited) The committee did destabilize the event. Placing the last three state champions in a single pool seems a bit over the top. It kind of makes you scratch your head and wonder if some old scores were being settled. Real issue with an unbalanced draw is it allows a self fulfilling prophesy to be created. Say, for example, Cathedral loses narrow matches in the tuffest pool and places 9th. The seeding committee can say ‘we’re right. Cathedral places low once again.’ But a person could see Cathedral placing higher if they were in a different pool. Or let’s say Perry narrowly defeats Penn and Cathedral, but uses so much emotional and physical energy that they are spent and lose to Brownsburg. The committee can say, ‘we’re right. Perry is 3rd.’ Such self fulfilling prophesies can become quite convenient justifications after the fact when teams have been align so as to produce desired outcomes. But you have your pre-conceived biases and hindsight "self-fulfilling prophecy" scenarios too (it seems that's your accusation of others): If Perry or Penn finishes 2nd or Cathedral pulls an upset in the pool, you'll say, "Told you that pool was mis-seeded." If Penn or Perry lose matches in the bracketed part of the tournament, you'll say, "Told you that pool was going to kill them." Of course everyone has biases that shade their opinions. But opponents to your views have presented facts about seeding procedures and random draw procedures that were used to try to eliminate these biases. You've only presented the biased perception that being the champion of an INDIVIDUAL tournament sometime in the past 3 years should affect your DUALS tournament seed. Please recognize that your preferences represent the strongest non-fact or non-procedure based biases being posted here. Edited December 31, 2015 by maligned bog190 and Wrestling Scholar 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMILL Posted December 31, 2015 Share Posted December 31, 2015 maligned............I think I agree with you and I think we are likely on same side of this argument, but when you put these posts in I feel like I am getting scolded by my mom for doing something wrong and I don't understand why (maybe its just me but your level of intelligence is slightly above my level of understanding at times). With all that said thanks for all the hard work you do for this site you are a stat-Czar and information guru !!!! I may see if Nicky Dubz can explain all this to me Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fabio Jr. Posted December 31, 2015 Share Posted December 31, 2015 Brownsburg has a tremendous team and looks to be a player for the foreseeable future. This is great for Indiana wrestling and a model for programs that wish to take the step. That being said, #paintrain, #bringthepain, #bringthepaintrain, #atbrowsburgwebringthepaintrain....is exhausting. You want a lot of attention; be careful what you ask for. We do want a lot of attention....the 1980s mentality of the sport is boring....be exciting and draw fans to the sport..if someone comes to ft wayne only to see us lose we did our job of promoting the sport of wrestling. Im a flamboyant charismatic person...im not going to change that to appease people i dont know I want indiana wrestling to grow and get bigger if that means being a heel dammit ill be the best heel out there. Looking forward to saturday whether we win or lose i just hope that we can put on a show for the people who show up #savewrestling #putonashow #choochoo #paintrainscoming #whatchanged #hashtagsarecool #doyourememberMySpace #thatwascooltoo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maligned Posted December 31, 2015 Share Posted December 31, 2015 maligned............I think I agree with you and I think we are likely on same side of this argument, but when you put these posts in I feel like I am getting scolded by my mom for doing something wrong and I don't understand why (maybe its just me but your level of intelligence is slightly above my level of understanding at times). With all that said thanks for all the hard work you do for this site you are a stat-Czar and information guru !!!! I may see if Nicky Dubz can explain all this to me You're not the first person to subtly (or not so subtly) suggest I should be less of a know-it-all. Please feel free to call me on it when it's headed that direction. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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