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Jayruss

Chad Red indiana's best ever ?

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Maurer had a few losses on his record and placed, but didn't win Fargo. He was ranked top 3ish for his weight during his senior year.

 

Micic had 5 losses his freshman year, which when comparing the others is quite a lot. He did win Fargo as a cadet and was on a Cadet World team.

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Maurer won twice at 171

OK, it must have been that he was at higher weights.  My friends and I used to debate this stuff, and I couldn't remember if it was that he won at four different weights, or if it was just that he won at higher weight classes that was the argument for Maurer.    Do you know what weight he won at his freshman year?

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What makes CJ special is that there is not a national event he hasn't won. He hasn't dodged kids (even though some on this board might be crazy enough to argue about) he has won EVERY MAJOR NATIONAL EVENT one can while holding on to an undefeated high school season so far. How many Indiana kids went undefeated in HS, Won Fargo, Won the Major Folkstyle National Event (Flo, Super 32, NHSCA before those)? I know its not a Dapper Dan but at WNO he wrestled 4 and 2 and won both of those matches.

 

Love him or hate him CJ Red is the BEST high school wrestler to come out of Indiana at this moment in time.

I agree with you 100%

Coughlin actually had better national stats than Maurer, Fargo champ, High School National champ, Fila Junior national champ.

 

4 losses in high school, 2x champ, 4x finalist

I too have had a debate who was better in high school out of Mauer and Coughlin , and imo I think Coughlin. Way more dominant his senior year, both were studs!

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Hard to tell who was the best but J. Tsirtsis beating Quiroga as a freshman might put him at the best of all time.  Quiroga went on to win Fargo that year after that loss.  Didn't Red lose to Brandon James at FloNationals one year 6-3?  

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Again, this topic is so difficult to define.  Do you mean "most accomplishments", "prettiest rèsumè", most dominant, highest peak level of quality?  I see people defending their choices for various reasons.  For me, I find myself comparing year by year quality level and highest peak quality level, without being strictly tied to accomplishments such as least losses or most titles, since those depend so much on who you had to face.  

 

On one hand, I don't see how you can even compare the freshmen seasons of Red and Tsirtsis.  Tsirtsis faced way more tough guys and had a couple much, much higher quality victories.  His ceiling, based on that season and his sophomore season, was so much higher that I don't even care about the Napules loss (Anyway, how many times did Red face guys as good as Napules his freshman season...3 or 4?..and he faced none of them up close multiple times in a rivalry series. And Tsirtsis wiped the mat with Napules all their other meetings and had no other close in-state matches except for Fargo junior all-americans.  Red had several close wins against non-national caliber guys that could have gone another direction. Freshman Red was not at freshman Tsirtsis' level and it wasn't that close in my mind.)

 

On the other hand, Red's run of victories in the last year is mind-boggling.  I made the point that he hasn't shown yet that he's as dominant against national competition as JT eventually was.  But how could you be when your weight is so loaded?  He just won the WNO with two guys from the P4P top 12 in his 4-man group.  Also, he may never get past #4 or #5 on P4P lists (JT was #1 or #2), but the top 3 in the P4P rankings right now (Hall, Fix, S.Lee) are turning out to be all-time greats for their age, the likes of whose accomplishments we've rarely seen--let alone 3 guys all at once.  JT probably would not have been ranked higher than any of them.  

 

All this to say, it all comes down to your own personal definition of "best ever."  For now, I still think the distance JT showed between himself and everyone else in the country his senior year and the very, very high level freestyle wins he got in March/April of his senior year are the highest ceiling successes.  But I'm not sure Red's far from doing the same things and he's got his whole senior year left.  It should be fun to see what he does next.

Edited by maligned

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Red freshman state finals

Blake glouski

Drew hildebrant all American state runner up 3x medalist

Dj smith state champion

Garrett pepple 3x finalist state champ all American

Jason tsirtsis

Tyler Clark south Dearborn

Ricky furar Angola

Cashe quirouga state champ runner up national champ

John grey cathedral

Chad might have had a tougher road as a freshman

Also Napules vs Jason was close at the cp merrillville dual the only blow out was at the semi state finals

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Red freshman state finals

Blake glouski

Drew hildebrant all American state runner up 3x medalist

Dj smith state champion

Garrett pepple 3x finalist state champ all American

Jason tsirtsis

Tyler Clark south Dearborn

Ricky furar Angola

Cashe quirouga state champ runner up national champ

John grey cathedral

Chad might have had a tougher road as a freshman

Also Napules vs Jason was close at the cp merrillville dual the only blow out was at the semi state finals

The impressive accomplishments you list for CJ's opponents were almost all down the road.  They were all freshmen except for Smith (who had 6 losses) that year, and even at his apex the next year, Smith was a fringe top 20 guy nationally.  I would argue he was one of only a couple guys CJ faced that season that were on par with a Napules or  John Grey AT THAT POINT.  And CJ really struggled with him twice.  Meanwhile JT won at a bigger weight and beat a senior who was a champ the year before and a Fargo national champ later that season (Quiroga), an all-american junior who was a state champ the year before (Wright), plus the 3 wins over Napules (who was a junior and had been 4th place the year before and ranked as the clear #3 all season if I'm not mistaken...I remember being shocked he lost to Berryman).  

 

I realize we're splitting hairs going into all these details...I just mean to say that it's really hard to make a case that CJ proved that much in the "best ever" discussion his freshman year, despite not losing.  Meanwhile, JT had high-end performances that put him straight into the national rankings picture...way more than enough for forgiveness of one unexplained loss against an experienced guy from a rival school that he had to wrestle numerous times.

 

You can see from my previous post that I'm starting to be convinced CJ is right there, if not beyond, JT if he continues on the path he's on.  But I'm not at all convinced that just being undefeated proved he was a better wrestler as a freshman.  

Edited by maligned

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I agree with Forest Gump.

is everyone just glossing over the fact that "sudden death 7" called Fabio Forest Gump ??    this is equivalent to someone defacing a national monument !!!!  Fabio is the people's hero !!!

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I thought he was calling dad2cash forest hump because of the line- "that's all I have to say about that."

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One thing that I think is cool is we have been graced with many very good wrestlers over the past 15 years. I hope the trend continues because it is fun discussing the best of the best.

Great point.  The only guy that's been mentioned in this GOAT discussion who graduated before 2000 is Lance Ellis.  The sport in Indiana has definitely gone through a makeover.  I remember thinking in like 2002, "wow, we are in a golden age here where we've got nationally relevant guys all over the place for the first time." ...but it's continued.  It's been amazing to watch our state make that transition to having it be the norm for so many guys to be nationally ranked and competing for big-event all-american status every year.

 

For 20 seasons from 1983 to 2002, we had a grand total of THREE 3-timers or 4-timers graduate.  We've averaged one per season since then (12 in 13 years).  

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