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Wrestling both fs and fk in college & high school


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Track and field has multiple events like 100m dash, 400m hurdles, high jump and shot put.  Swimming has multiple events like the 3m spring board, 100m butterfly and 100m backstroke.  Tennis has multiple events like singles #1, singles #2 and doubles.  Gymnastics has multiple events like the rings, high bar and floor.  The rules for each of the aforementioned individual events are quite strikingly different.

 

I see no reason why wrestling cannot have multiple events in folkstyle, freestyle and greco.  Not saying it will be easy.  But it is possible.  The central reason we don't think of fk, fs and gr as separate events of the singular sport of wrestling is imop solely due to tradition.  In swimming, it has always been tradition to do multiple events at the same meet.  In wrestling, it has been tradition to not have multiple events at the same meet.  I think we need to change this tradition in wrestling and go to multiple events for NFHS and NCAA like other sports.   

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I guess I'm missing the part where you have to be an elite level wrestler to be good a freestyle or Greco. Don't you also have to be an elite wrestler to be good at folkstyle?

I could not agree more.  Back when I was coaching hs, I coached over 1,000 kids.  Not one of those boys ever ended up being an NCAA folkstyle champ.  Not one of those boys ever even was a DI all-american.  However, the vast majority of the kids I coached walked away from wrestling loving the sport.  You do not have to be an elite wrestler to get something pretty valuable from wrestling all the styles of wrestling. 

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I guess I'm missing the part where you have to be an elite level wrestler to be good a freestyle or Greco. Don't you also have to be an elite wrestler to be good at folkstyle?

 

That is not the case. The issue is freestyle is not a requirement like it was before all the national Folkstyle tournaments came to be. After the regular season you have DOZENS of quality Folkstyle tournaments. The number of freestyle offerings at that level are slim. Kids end up not training in it enough there fore end up preferring Folkstyle to freestyle. Then when it comes to getting 2 qualifiers in to go freestyle state or to go to 2 Folkstyle events you will get more going to the Folkstyle. I showed Freestyle I was at two qualifers with wrestlers and at Freestyle state. I believe the way the rules are are great (I could still do with out the push out though) The big flaw is that the time of and length of the freestyle season.

 

Think of it like this should a high school teams and RTC's be running freestyle practices now? roughly 147 of the total population (not including duplicates) are set to compete at duals and or Fargo. It makes more sense as a High School Wrestling coach to prepare the majority of your team for Next Season at this point. Since tournaments like Jazztown, Disney, IHPO, and Super 32 are quickly approaching folkstyle would be back on the table.

 

It's simple if USA Wrestling wants to increase the participation base of the international styles it needs to be talking to NFHS and NCAA to move toward a change. They also need to make Freestyle/Greco the Center of the Youth Season instead of a 6 week thing after Folkstyle (Maybe more of a ISWA thing?) I would also say we need more National tournaments that are Freestyle going out and possibly competing with the Super 32 and Flo-Nationals of the world. There just are not enough of those tournaments and the ones out there are not nearly as well promoted. 

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Just how many "National Tournament" are there? Correct me if I am wrong. In college wrestling there is only 1 "National Tournament" depending on what division your school is a member of, correct? For example if you wrestle at IU or Purdue you could only compete at the D-1 Championships and Indiana Tech it would be the NAIA Championships and so on.

 

I think all a club needs to do is add "National" to their local event and maybe it will increase numbers. Then we could have several "National Tournaments" the same weekend. We could also wrestle a "true 2nd" so everyone gets a fair shot. Only the "elite" kids will enter these tournaments and none will go 2 and out....because only the "elite" kids enter "National Tournaments"

 

Then after all that happens we will have several organizations all fighting for the same "elite" wrestlers to enter their "National Tournament" and wrestling will suffer because the focus will be to create a gimmick to entice entries instead of improving the sport. Soon no one will be able to agree on anything and entities within entities will begin doing their own thing and as a result wrestling in the United States of America will decline as a sport. In fact, it's occurring right before our very eyes we are just too blind to see it.

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Just how many "National Tournament" are there? Correct me if I am wrong. In college wrestling there is only 1 "National Tournament" depending on what division your school is a member of, correct? For example if you wrestle at IU or Purdue you could only compete at the D-1 Championships and Indiana Tech it would be the NAIA Championships and so on.

 

I think all a club needs to do is add "National" to their local event and maybe it will increase numbers. Then we could have several "National Tournaments" the same weekend. We could also wrestle a "true 2nd" so everyone gets a fair shot. Only the "elite" kids will enter these tournaments and none will go 2 and out....because only the "elite" kids enter "National Tournaments"

 

Then after all that happens we will have several organizations all fighting for the same "elite" wrestlers to enter their "National Tournament" and wrestling will suffer because the focus will be to create a gimmick to entice entries instead of improving the sport. Soon no one will be able to agree on anything and entities within entities will begin doing their own thing and as a result wrestling in the United States of America will decline as a sport. In fact, it's occurring right before our very eyes we are just too blind to see it.

 

There are so many strawman arguments in this I can't even possibly respond. Back on point -- sure you have to be an elite wrestler to be good at folkstyle, but you don't have to be an elite wrestler to PARTICIPATE. I suppose you don't have to be an elite wrestler to participate in any style, but the more styles a beginner has to learn, I believe, can turn those beginners away from participating. And if you have to choose one, I believe that folkstyle is the style that appeals to the masses in the United States moreso than greco or freestyle.

Edited by NLCards
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There are so many strawman arguments in this I can't even possibly respond. Back on point -- sure you have to be an elite wrestler to be good at folkstyle, but you don't have to be an elite wrestler to PARTICIPATE. I suppose you don't have to be an elite wrestler to participate in any style, but the more styles a beginner has to learn, I believe, can turn those beginners away from participating. And if you have to choose one, I believe that folkstyle is the style that appeals to the masses in the United States moreso than greco or freestyle.

If I have a beginning wrestler under 10 years old the easiest style to teach is freestyle. In freestyle you can go right into stance and takedowns. You don't have to worry about properly lining up or locking hands or any of the other ticky tacky rules of folkstyle that will cost a kid a point. On top of that you don't have to teach bottom moves either.

 

Freestyle can appeal to the masses if coaches and parents push it. They don't because "they won't coach an Olympic champion." However, the chances of coaching and NCAA champion in folkstyle are about as slim also.

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If I have a beginning wrestler under 10 years old the easiest style to teach is freestyle. In freestyle you can go right into stance and takedowns. You don't have to worry about properly lining up or locking hands or any of the other ticky tacky rules of folkstyle that will cost a kid a point. On top of that you don't have to teach bottom moves either.

 

Freestyle can appeal to the masses if coaches and parents push it. They don't because "they won't coach an Olympic champion." However, the chances of coaching and NCAA champion in folkstyle are about as slim also.

 

But their chances of coaching a high school state champion are higer, a high school state qualifier even higher, a high school sectional champion higher yet. It's not just about the cream of the crop.

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I would never want to wrestle for a coach who's vision for me would be confined to winning championships within our state boarders.

And I would never want my child to wrestle for a coach who's only concern is training the few elite athletes for championships outside our state boarders at the expense of masses who don't have the talent to get there.

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And I would never want my child to wrestle for a coach who's only concern is training the few elite athletes for championships outside our state boarders at the expense of masses who don't have the talent to get there.

And neither would I. A great coach coaches every kid in the room to achieve whatever they can...without limiting them from some preconceived notion.

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 I believe that folkstyle is the style that appeals to the masses in the United States moreso than greco or freestyle.

You keep saying this, but the only reason it's true is because it's the one that we wrestle. If we switched and had the excitement of high school tournaments and the IHSAA state finals and the NCAA finals all using freestyle rules, the appeal would be exactly the same because our association with it would be all of those things we love.

 

We like folkstyle because it's what gets us to Bankers Life or a scholarship or an NCAA berth. If what got us those things was freestyle, its "appeal to the masses" would be identical.

Edited by maligned
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You keep saying this, but the only reason it's true is because it's the one that we wrestle. If we switched and had the excitement of high school tournaments and the IHSAA state finals and the NCAA finals all using freestyle rules, the appeal would be exactly the same because our association with it would be all of those things we love.

 

We like folkstyle because it's what gets us to Bankers Life or a scholarship or an NCAA berth. If what got us those things was freestyle, its "appeal to the masses" would be identical.

^^^^^Exactly!!!!!!!!!!!!

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You keep saying this, but the only reason it's true is because it's the one that we wrestle. If we switched and had the excitement of high school tournaments and the IHSAA state finals and the NCAA finals all using freestyle rules, the appeal would be exactly the same because our association with it would be all of those things we love.

 

We like folkstyle because it's what gets us to Bankers Life or a scholarship or an NCAA berth. If what got us those things was freestyle, its "appeal to the masses" would be identical.

 

I agree with you. Thats why I said USAW needs to communicate with the NFHS and NCAA. Get those and everything changes. Now if you want to increase Freestyle in state you need a longer season. Host folkstyle state the week after individual state and that puts it the weekend of 2/28 - 3/1 then move freestyle state the week before central regionals (5/9-5/10) that gives you 9 weeks of freestyle. before state and central regionals. That will offer folkstyle tournaments for youth. Schoolboy, Cadets and Juniors can do Folkstyle State, and then it goes right to freestyle. Just a simple suggestion if someone else wants to take it to one of the many meetings.

 

 

 

Just how many "National Tournament" are there? Correct me if I am wrong. In college wrestling there is only 1 "National Tournament" depending on what division your school is a member of, correct? For example if you wrestle at IU or Purdue you could only compete at the D-1 Championships and Indiana Tech it would be the NAIA Championships and so on.

 

I think all a club needs to do is add "National" to their local event and maybe it will increase numbers. Then we could have several "National Tournaments" the same weekend. We could also wrestle a "true 2nd" so everyone gets a fair shot. Only the "elite" kids will enter these tournaments and none will go 2 and out....because only the "elite" kids enter "National Tournaments"

 

Then after all that happens we will have several organizations all fighting for the same "elite" wrestlers to enter their "National Tournament" and wrestling will suffer because the focus will be to create a gimmick to entice entries instead of improving the sport. Soon no one will be able to agree on anything and entities within entities will begin doing their own thing and as a result wrestling in the United States of America will decline as a sport. In fact, it's occurring right before our very eyes we are just too blind to see it.

 

Tom maybe I shouldn't use the term 'National Tournament' because you're right there are countless small tournaments that are called nationals tournaments even in our state that are far from it. Freestyle needs more high profile tournaments. (Have a youth division at the Dave Schultz and other large events in the US) have those compete with the Flos and Super 32s.  Again Im just a guy spiting out ideas but one thing is clear something needs to change cause the state of International styles at least in our state borders is declining quickly.

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Just a couple scenarios/questions.

 

You coach at a school where half the kids start wrestling in middle school or high school.  While freestyle may be easier to teach, do you want a kid who is just starting wrestling to compete against a state level wrestler in free-style or folkstyle?  I am sure they will take their lumps in either style, but folkstyle just seems safer and less likely to get someone hurt or parents scared to death.  This is also why I think free style is for the elite kids because they know what to expect and how defend themselves better than a kid off the street.

 

If the idea is to wrestle multiple styles, how easy is that to teach a new kid?  Ok, now you can lock your hands except the next match it will be a penalty.  Now you should lay on your stomach on bottom and just try not to get turned, and on Tuesday you need to try to escape.  Not to even mention greco.  I still don't think parents and kids would understand it.  One of the reasons I saw listed a lot when Olympic wrestling was almost lost was that people didn't understand the rules.  This would be rampant with multiple styles.

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Just a couple scenarios/questions.

 

You coach at a school where half the kids start wrestling in middle school or high school.  While freestyle may be easier to teach, do you want a kid who is just starting wrestling to compete against a state level wrestler in free-style or folkstyle?  I am sure they will take their lumps in either style, but folkstyle just seems safer and less likely to get someone hurt or parents scared to death.  This is also why I think free style is for the elite kids because they know what to expect and how defend themselves better than a kid off the street.

Safer how? In freestyle they are going to get taken down then turned 4 times and be off the mat in 30 seconds. In folkstyle they will be taken down and cut a few times before being pinned in about a minute. You are pretending like suplays are a dime a dozen in freestyle and they aren't.

If the idea is to wrestle multiple styles, how easy is that to teach a new kid?  Ok, now you can lock your hands except the next match it will be a penalty.  Now you should lay on your stomach on bottom and just try not to get turned, and on Tuesday you need to try to escape.  Not to even mention greco.  I still don't think parents and kids would understand it.  One of the reasons I saw listed a lot when Olympic wrestling was almost lost was that people didn't understand the rules.  This would be rampant with multiple styles.

If you are teaching different styles at the same time there will be immense confusion of EVERYONE, whether they are novice or experienced. Wrestling rules have changed quite a bit since it was ousted from the Olympics if you didn't already know.
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If the idea is to wrestle multiple styles, how easy is that to teach a new kid?  Ok, now you can lock your hands except the next match it will be a penalty.  Now you should lay on your stomach on bottom and just try not to get turned, and on Tuesday you need to try to escape.  Not to even mention greco.  I still don't think parents and kids would understand it.  One of the reasons I saw listed a lot when Olympic wrestling was almost lost was that people didn't understand the rules.  This would be rampant with multiple styles.

I understand what you are saying.  It's not hard to imagine parents or kids asking a lot of questions about the different styles of wrestling at first.  I would like to try to persuade you with another perspective, though.

Please consider that:

In singles tennis, the inside vertical line is out-of-bounds, while in doubles the outside vertical line is out-of-bounds.

In track, during the 100m dash the fastest time wins, while in pole vault the highest height wins.

In swimming, during the 200m butterfly the fastest time wins, while in the 3m springboard dive the highest score from a panel of judges wins.

In gymnastics, if your feet touch the ground because you fall of the balance beam then you incur a large penalty, but during the floor exercise your feet need to remain within the designate mat space on the ground.

 

Within many sports, we have different events.  And often events have very different rules and scoring practices.  Most people accept such differences because that's the way it's always been.  

 

Imop, the actual reason some people prefer folkstyle is solely because that's always been 'american' wrestling.  But I feel people will become acclimated very quickly if like other sports, wrestling became more multi-event related with fk, fs and greco all occurring within the existing american high school and college season.

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Just a couple scenarios/questions.

 

You coach at a school where half the kids start wrestling in middle school or high school.  While freestyle may be easier to teach, do you want a kid who is just starting wrestling to compete against a state level wrestler in free-style or folkstyle?  I am sure they will take their lumps in either style, but folkstyle just seems safer and less likely to get someone hurt or parents scared to death.  This is also why I think free style is for the elite kids because they know what to expect and how defend themselves better than a kid off the street.

Safer? I cant even tell you how many shoulders I've seen ripped out in folkstyle. 

Edited by gogoplata89
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You keep saying this, but the only reason it's true is because it's the one that we wrestle. If we switched and had the excitement of high school tournaments and the IHSAA state finals and the NCAA finals all using freestyle rules, the appeal would be exactly the same because our association with it would be all of those things we love.

 

We like folkstyle because it's what gets us to Bankers Life or a scholarship or an NCAA berth. If what got us those things was freestyle, its "appeal to the masses" would be identical.

 

I completely disagree. I do not think that freestyle is near as appealing a style. Drastically changing rules, ties, 10 second tech falls, matches decided by drawing a color out of a baggie... these are all things that have been a part of freestyle in the recent past. I know more than one person who has a casual interest in folkstyle wrestling that literally won't watch the Olympics because it's so confusing they can't even tell what is going on. Would that change with some education? Sure, but I don't believe that it would ever be a style that would appeal to as many athletes as folkstyle does. I'm also not sure why anybody would want to change the emphasis to freestyle, other than for elite athlete international success, and I believe there are much better and appropriate ways to accomplish that than changing our focus on youth and high school wrestling to freestyle.

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I completely disagree. I do not think that freestyle is near as appealing a style. Drastically changing rules, ties, 10 second tech falls, matches decided by drawing a color out of a baggie... these are all things that have been a part of freestyle in the recent past. I know more than one person who has a casual interest in folkstyle wrestling that literally won't watch the Olympics because it's so confusing they can't even tell what is going on. Would that change with some education? Sure, but I don't believe that it would ever be a style that would appeal to as many athletes as folkstyle does. I'm also not sure why anybody would want to change the emphasis to freestyle, other than for elite athlete international success, and I believe there are much better and appropriate ways to accomplish that than changing our focus on youth and high school wrestling to freestyle.

I will admit we struggled with the rules for a number of years. In my opinion, they are where they need to be now. Overtime would be my only wish (possibly). It's wrestling again and I invite you to take a fresh look at it. The Greco World Team Trials are this evening and next weekend the Freestyle Trials are in Madison WI. You will see some familiar faces there such as Escobedo, Humphrey, Howe and Hildebrand. It's worth taking a peek at and there is no riding time to endure.

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I completely disagree. I do not think that freestyle is near as appealing a style. Drastically changing rules, ties, 10 second tech falls, matches decided by drawing a color out of a baggie... these are all things that have been a part of freestyle in the recent past. I know more than one person who has a casual interest in folkstyle wrestling that literally won't watch the Olympics because it's so confusing they can't even tell what is going on. Would that change with some education? Sure, but I don't believe that it would ever be a style that would appeal to as many athletes as folkstyle does. I'm also not sure why anybody would want to change the emphasis to freestyle, other than for elite athlete international success, and I believe there are much better and appropriate ways to accomplish that than changing our focus on youth and high school wrestling to freestyle.

Not to belabor the point, but the NFHS and NCAA will never be confined to the sudden whims of the International Olympic Committee or United World Wrestling. 

 

Youth baseball has a smaller field, a different baseball and bats, more protective gear, shorter games, etc., etc., etc. than pro or college baseball.  It doesn't matter.  The required hours spent on skills learned for pitching, fielding, and hitting are the hours needed to develop into a good baseball player. 

 

The NFHS could have any number of peripheral rules look much different from the games that top-level freestyle wrestlers were forced to play for a few years and the skills experienced would still be 100% future applicable. 

 

And I still don't understand at all the thought that the only ones affected by us being the 8th best freestyle nation and 20th best greco nation are the ones who actually qualify for the olympics.  Growth of the sport is dependent on its notoriety.  We get no notoriety when every 4 years the best viewing opportunity for kids not yet interested in wrestling gets pushed to late-night replays or online streaming because we only have a couple viable medal candidates.

Edited by maligned
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Not to belabor the point, but the NFHS and NCAA will never be confined to the sudden whims of the International Olympic Committee or United World Wrestling. 

 

Youth baseball has a smaller field, a different baseball and bats, more protective gear, shorter games, etc., etc., etc. than pro or college baseball.  It doesn't matter.  The required hours spent on skills learned for pitching, fielding, and hitting are the hours needed to develop into a good baseball player. 

 

The NFHS could have any number of peripheral rules look much different from the games that top-level freestyle wrestlers were forced to play for a few years and the skills experienced would still be 100% future applicable. 

 

And I still don't understand at all the thought that the only ones affected by us being the 8th best freestyle nation and 20th best greco nation are the ones who actually qualify for the olympics.  Growth of the sport is dependent on its notoriety.  We get no notoriety when every 4 years the best viewing opportunity for kids not yet interested in wrestling gets pushed to late-night replays or online streaming because we only have a couple viable medal candidates.

I don't think that the "best viewing opportunities" are poorly televised Olympic matches that come around every four years. There is much more dedicated (and better) TV and online coverage of NCAA folkstyle events every single year.

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Also, like he was saying, rules can be different. Like they have javelin in Olympics but never in highschool. The rules can be different rules for kids freestyle because it ain't the Olympics.

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