1prouddad Posted March 21, 2015 Share Posted March 21, 2015 Wow...he got robbed. Tsirtsis got a take down and he should have got a a penalty point. But if Tsirtsis would have been offensive the first period instead of playing defense I think he would have got two or three takedowns. Sometimes that style can turn out to bite you in the end. I think it was a good call by the ref on the TD. I do agree though that Tsirtsis wasn't as offensive as we are used to seeing him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maligned Posted March 21, 2015 Author Share Posted March 21, 2015 Taylor Walsh of IU to the finals at 165. Great accomplishment, but he'll be one of the biggest underdogs of the finals going up against Dieringer of Oklahoma St. Big favorites have lost already this weekend, though, and Walsh is so aggressive and such a big risk taker that it will be interesting to see if he can pull something off. I know it's disappointing Tsirtsis lost, but if you haven't had a chance to watch Walsh yet, he's one of the most exciting guys in the country. It's worth checking out the finals to see if he can pull off the upset. He's got a boatload of pins on the year and no one in college gets pins. He's not even that phenomenal of an athlete, but he throws, hits big-time ducks, cradles, goes for crazy scrambles...his matches are always thrilling, even when he loses. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maligned Posted March 21, 2015 Author Share Posted March 21, 2015 (edited) Tsirtsis loses a tough semifinal to Habat 3-2. On a semi-Indiana related note, how about Zeke Moises making the finals? He's beaten the 15, 2, 7 and 6 seeds, and avenging earlier season losses to 2 seed (Garrett majored him) and 7 seed Klimara of OK St who had beaten him twice. Petrov beat him earlier in the year 4-3 and Micic majored him 13-4 at the Dapper Dan last year. He's been on fire this weekend, making the finals by pinning Gilman of Iowa in :52. And Brooks beat Tomasello (Moisey's finals opponent) a couple times too at national events. It goes to show again that we're developing talent in Indiana. Hopefully we can start more frequently getting our top guys in the right situations to take it to the next level after high school. Let's hope that's what's happening with Micic and he'll be in the mix next year. Edited March 21, 2015 by maligned Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maligned Posted March 21, 2015 Author Share Posted March 21, 2015 Tsirtsis comes back to take 3rd place, winning two more very tight matches. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maligned Posted March 22, 2015 Author Share Posted March 22, 2015 Walsh fell 14-7 in the 165-pound final to Dieringer, who came in as perhaps the second biggest favorite of the tournament behind Stieber. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SIACfan Posted March 22, 2015 Share Posted March 22, 2015 I think it was a good call by the ref on the TD. I do agree though that Tsirtsis wasn't as offensive as we are used to seeing him. By collegiate rules that was a TD. He was behind both shoulders with one foot in & Habbat had one hand on the mat. But it happened so quick just before they went out of bounds, it was not exactly a horrible non-call. Officiating those calls at the collegiate level is extremely difficult. It was certainly worth the challenge & even had a slight chance of being overturned, but in most cases the officials aren't going to change something that close. Regarding not being offensive, that is what his style has become in college. He rode it all the way to a national title last year, but it is a style that leaves very little room for error. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1prouddad Posted March 22, 2015 Share Posted March 22, 2015 At least the refs were consistent in them type of calls. I can recall at least 2 other challenges of the same scenario and the calls stood. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joker Posted March 22, 2015 Share Posted March 22, 2015 I think if the referees had the angle that we saw on ESPN it had a better chance of getting overturned. The camera that they were using for that match looked to be at ground level on the other side of the mat. Looking at the replay that ESPN showed it definitely looked like a takedown according to the college rules. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Novice Bat Posted March 23, 2015 Share Posted March 23, 2015 Straying off topic a little, but what do you guys think about the end of the Wilps vs Brown match. I thought it was a very bad end to a finals match, but I see how it could've been the right call. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IU89 Posted March 23, 2015 Share Posted March 23, 2015 Straying off topic a little, but what do you guys think about the end of the Wilps vs Brown match. I thought it was a very bad end to a finals match, but I see how it could've been the right call.I thought it was locked hands and my son vehemently thought the opposite. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SIACfan Posted March 23, 2015 Share Posted March 23, 2015 There definitely was locked hands, but was there any time left on the clock? They kept showing that when the hands touched there was one second showing, but neither of the commentators mentioned that Brown was still on his feet at that moment. I could not tell if there was any time left once his knee touched. It appeared to me there may not have been. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MD92 Posted March 23, 2015 Share Posted March 23, 2015 I think it was a good call by the ref on the TD. I do agree though that Tsirtsis wasn't as offensive as we are used to seeing him. I know it is not the case, but it seems like every match he wrestles is 2-1 or 3-2. He had a couple of close matches earlier in the tournament and his run last year was the same. He obviously has the talent to open things up, but for some reason he has chosen to go to a very defensive style and it caught up with him in the semi's. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aoberlin Posted March 23, 2015 Share Posted March 23, 2015 I know it is not the case, but it seems like every match he wrestles is 2-1 or 3-2. He had a couple of close matches earlier in the tournament and his run last year was the same. He obviously has the talent to open things up, but for some reason he has chosen to go to a very defensive style and it caught up with him in the semi's. Were we watching the same match? I thought he was very offensive. I would have to go back and watch it again but he stalked him the whole time (at least after he was down) and worked on multiple setups and was in on quite a few shots. His opponent got a takedown and ran the rest of the time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SIACfan Posted March 23, 2015 Share Posted March 23, 2015 Were we watching the same match? I thought he was very offensive. I would have to go back and watch it again but he stalked him the whole time (at least after he was down) and worked on multiple setups and was in on quite a few shots. His opponent got a takedown and ran the rest of the time. I don't think anyone would accuse Tsirtsis of staling, & if someone did I would certainly argue against it. You are also correct in the fact that he stalked Habbat & worked on multiple setups. But we are talking about elite college wrestlers here & Tsirtsis's style has become one that is methodical & perhaps conservative. That is not a bad thing, it is just the kind of wrestler he is & it is the style that works for his skill set. The best analogy I can think of is that Tsirtsis is much more similar to Kyle Dake than to David Taylor, and there certainly is nothing wrong with that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MattM Posted March 23, 2015 Share Posted March 23, 2015 Jason provides a little insight into thing here http://www.flowrestling.org/coverage/252093-2015-NCAA-D1-Championships/video/764632-Jason-Tsirtsis-Felt-The-Pressure-All-Year- Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MD92 Posted March 23, 2015 Share Posted March 23, 2015 Were we watching the same match? I thought he was very offensive. I would have to go back and watch it again but he stalked him the whole time (at least after he was down) and worked on multiple setups and was in on quite a few shots. His opponent got a takedown and ran the rest of the time. He is so good with his defense and positioning, etc. that I think he relies a little too much on it. I agree that he amped it up a bit after he got behind in the semi's, and you could argue that he should have received a stalling point towards the end, but it was too little too late. Why not come out and be the aggressor from the first whistle? From where I sit, he seems content sometimes to be 0-0 after the first, get an escape to go up 1-0 after the 2nd and then rely on getting a RT point and defense to win 2-1. It is usually an effective style for him and won him a national title, so I can't really knock it too much. I just think he is going to have to score more to win a 2nd or 3rd title. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aoberlin Posted March 23, 2015 Share Posted March 23, 2015 I remember Howe his first couple years in College and there wasn't a whole lot of opening up but that changed. I just think the first couple years of colllege (especially at the level of competition he is at) opening up intelligently is extremely hard to do. It is easy to sit back on say wow he just needs to wrestle like we know he can. He is a very smart kid and his stragedy could have won him his second title but it was a little short. And yes there should have been a second stalling call especially since there was a very close takedown that did not go his way. I do feel College wrestling in general is going in the right direction as far as the action goes. There is no doubt he will be swinging for the fences the next couple years. If we want to look at the positive side at least he got some pressure off his back. As a coach and a former wrestler I know that is one of the hardest things to deal with. I can't imagine trying to live up to the top 4 or 5 guys to ever to wrestle in US. I know there are no Tsirtsis bashers here I just think we can't even mentally put ourselves where he is at. Looking forward to watching him the next couple years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leggin89 Posted March 23, 2015 Share Posted March 23, 2015 There definitely was locked hands, but was there any time left on the clock? They kept showing that when the hands touched there was one second showing, but neither of the commentators mentioned that Brown was still on his feet at that moment. I could not tell if there was any time left once his knee touched. It appeared to me there may not have been. What the announcers also did mention was that ESPN does their own clock for the events, so they typically are within a second of the correct time, but not always. They showed their "best estimate" of the clock, but it still was not correct. (If anyone would have happened to see the clock on the trackwreslting controller it showed their was 3.91 seconds left in the match (showing :03 on the scoreboard). The ESPN clock went to :02 immediately as the match was restart. That was why they moved over to the "Official NCAA camera" (Trackwrestling (same system that was used for all of the other challenges not during the finals)) that has an overlay of the exact time that is showing on the scoreboard. Based on being at the event, and being privy to the situation they identified where the locked hands occurred based on ESPN's view and made sure that the time was correct based on Trackwrestling's clock. There was a second on the clock when the locked hands occurred based on Trackwrestling's video. So ultimately Matt Brown won on the correct call. It was pretty obvious that the entire half of the bowl that saw the locked hands occur wanted to show the officials. I have never seen more people show the locked hands signal in my life. Now I will go off subject a little. What happened when Dylan Ness went out to injury default out of his Consolation Semi's match, may have been the most special thing of the entire weekend. In fact, it may have been the most special thing I have been fortunate enough to see in the sport. The entire arena (this includes Iowa fans) of 19,713 erupted and gave him one last standing ovation after such an amazing career. Many of tear were shed and goosebumps to be had during this happening from all around the arena. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SIACfan Posted March 23, 2015 Share Posted March 23, 2015 What the announcers also did mention was that ESPN does their own clock for the events, so they typically are within a second of the correct time, but not always. They showed their "best estimate" of the clock, but it still was not correct. (If anyone would have happened to see the clock on the trackwreslting controller it showed their was 3.91 seconds left in the match (showing :03 on the scoreboard). The ESPN clock went to :02 immediately as the match was restart. That was why they moved over to the "Official NCAA camera" (Trackwrestling (same system that was used for all of the other challenges not during the finals)) that has an overlay of the exact time that is showing on the scoreboard. Based on being at the event, and being privy to the situation they identified where the locked hands occurred based on ESPN's view and made sure that the time was correct based on Trackwrestling's clock. There was a second on the clock when the locked hands occurred based on Trackwrestling's video. So ultimately Matt Brown won on the correct call. It was pretty obvious that the entire half of the bowl that saw the locked hands occur wanted to show the officials. I have never seen more people show the locked hands signal in my life. Now I will go off subject a little. What happened when Dylan Ness went out to injury default out of his Consolation Semi's match, may have been the most special thing of the entire weekend. In fact, it may have been the most special thing I have been fortunate enough to see in the sport. The entire arena (this includes Iowa fans) of 19,713 erupted and gave him one last standing ovation after such an amazing career. Many of tear were shed and goosebumps to be had during this happening from all around the arena. You may be correct but when they were showing the replay (over & over) they were showing a clock that was not the ESPN clock. I assumed at the time it was the official clock but maybe it was the trackwrestling clock (I don't know) but I do know what they were showing in the replays was not the ESPN clock. As I said, there was one second showing on the clock when Wilps hands first touched, but Brown was on his feet at that moment. He was in a squatting position but neither knee nor hip was touching the mat. By the time his knee touched, It appeared the clock may have run out. You would have to see the video to see what I am talking about (maybe you have). Brown was so low in a squatting position that neither announcer even thought of the idea that he technically was not down & therefore the locked hands would have been legal at that moment. I can also imagine that to the crowd he appeared down when in reality he was not at the moment when the hands first locked. I am not certain if the call was correct or not, but it was a shame to see a title match end that way. Brown himself stated this in the interview immediately following the match. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leggin89 Posted March 23, 2015 Share Posted March 23, 2015 I have seen both the ESPN coverage and may or may not have been Matside at time of them reviewing the call. The right call was made. The track clock on the computer and on the scoreboard are identical, as the scoreboard is ran by the computer. I guarantee the clock that ESPN kept showing, was theirs and theirs alone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maligned Posted March 24, 2015 Author Share Posted March 24, 2015 (edited) Jason provides a little insight into thing here http://www.flowrestling.org/coverage/252093-2015-NCAA-D1-Championships/video/764632-Jason-Tsirtsis-Felt-The-Pressure-All-Year- It's good to see JT has good perspective--a very elusive concept in life. Sometimes success in reaching intermediate goals can stifle our progression toward the bigger picture goals. We can start to stress about not being as successful as that first go-round. I thought all season that a significant setback could be exactly what he needs to start climbing the mountain away from the potential "plateau" he arguably was starting to walk. If he's serious about Senior-level or world-level success, 2-1 riding-time victories aren't doing much to prepare him for those bigger goals. He has to be willing to fail a bit to work toward a higher attack volume and/or variety of attacks if he's going to take those next steps. Kudos to him for recognizing the need to adapt. Here's hoping he and his support team can keep this perspective for the long haul. Edited March 24, 2015 by maligned aoberlin and MD92 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Novice Bat Posted March 25, 2015 Share Posted March 25, 2015 I also hope that Jason keeps his flowing mane. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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