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No love for the north


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Many schools have been in session on Saturdays due to snow make up.  Is there any provision for these kids? 

 

I like the idea of attending a certain number of RTCs in order to qualify. 

 

I understand and appreciate the intent of this new rule.  It was slow to get out (at least for me) and will now mean that Indiana will have less participation in wrestling.  Not more. 

 

As an aside, I am not sure there is a real appreciation by some for those who do not live close to Indy.  I am certain those in the center of the state are tired of hearing this, but the cost and time associated with travel to Indy is significant.  I know our family travels to Indy at least 6 weekends a year for wrestling.  I think this type of mandate will cause (and is causing) less participation from outside Indy since many must travel to Indy to just qualify for state.   

 

In my humble opinion, we should try to make it EASY to go to freestyle/Greco state.  Beg people to come to state.  More participation the better.  Be inclusive not exclusive.  Give a state meet discount to kids that attend multiple local tourneys and clubs that bring multiple kids.  But don't exclude a kid because they (usually the parent) can't make it to two local tourneys. 

 

Well said sir!

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If word gets out that kids that didn't go to two events are all of a sudden getting in, it will not be good for the ISWA. By my count the max number of wrestlers at state will be around 750 as we have had around 1500 in all the tournaments so far.

I think that is an over estimate.  They will be lucky if it is 500.  In the northeast (Huntington) you have under a 100 kids last weekend.  It is sad to me, someone that loves freestyle, that it has dropped so much.  

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What about dividing the state up into 4 regions and having a qualifying tournament for state. Top 8 wrestlers advance to state. Local clubs could rotate thier regional, or work together and split any profits. They could use local tournaments from their region as a seeding tool for their regional tournament. This would get at least more wrestlers to wrestle in a freestyle tournament other than state because they would have to qualify... It would also be an incentive for more local tournaments in a region because of seeding point possibilities...

This may be the best idea if the ISWA is set on making kids qualify for state.  You have to qualify through one of the 4 regionals to get to state.  That only takes up one weekend instead of two, plus almost guarantees some matches vs. no one showing up to a local tournament.  Also, it will help people with travel.  A good enough kid won't be motivated by seeding, but a kid who is not as good might wrestle in more local tournaments to try and increase his chances of getting a high seed?  

 

Personally, I don't have a problem with any kid signing up to wrestle at state without any qualifiers.  I understand why they made this decision, I just don't think it was the correct one.  I don't think in a couple of years you will see more local tournaments and better attended local tournaments.  I think you will see our state tournament on its deathbed with about the same level of participation at local tournaments.  

Edited by Smooth34
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If word gets out that kids that didn't go to two events are all of a sudden getting in, it will not be good for the ISWA. By my count the max number of wrestlers at state will be around 750 as we have had around 1500 in all the tournaments so far.

Could not agree more.  I think people will be really mad if wrestlers without 2 tournaments are allowed to compete at state because someone waived the requirement.  How will iswa validate that everyonje has two tournaments and is qualified?

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This rule will not be good for numbers and wont get some of the kids that are in other sports. It is a shame my son has wrestled this event since he was pee wee 35  . took 1st last year and we wont be there this year because of the new rule. Hopefully they will make an amendment.

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Talked to a tourney host this past weekend (not Iron Eagle) and he told me this was the highest # of kids they have had sign up for there tourney in years. So in his eyes the process seems to be working.

I would agree with the fact that this rule has and will help numbers at local tournaments. The die hards will find a way to qualify. That being said, I think only the die hards will show up at state. If I'm wrong I will admit it when the time comes but I don't think I will be. I love freestyle and so does my son, and we will be at state; but I think this will really hurt numbers at state. Especially in the cadet and junior divisions. I hope I'm wrong.

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WaltHarris was pretty close to what the problem is. It's actually quite simple. The folkstyle season has started earlier and earlier for several years now with freestyle being pushed further back to compete with more spring and summer sports. Since there is a fall and winter of folkstyle wrestling these kids and their parents are opting to use the spring and summer to participate in the other available club sports. The full effects of this Massive folkstyle season wont be felt by USA wrestling until the next generation of our elite and olympic grapplers take over. These will be the wrestlers who grew up in the current folkstyle wrestling system of USA wrestling. The studs on the team now are pretty much the last generation of wrestlers who were trained from a young age primarily in freestyle and Greco. 

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Talked to a tourney host this past weekend (not Iron Eagle) and he told me this was the highest # of kids they have had sign up for there tourney in years.  So in his eyes the process seems to be working.

So one tournament makes this rule a success?  You can't be certain the only reason for high attendance was this new rule.  

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So one tournament makes this rule a success?  You can't be certain the only reason for high attendance was this new rule.  

 

Smooth, if you read my entire statement notice the bold print below you would see that i stated in his eyes the rule seems to be working...meaning that he personally believes it is working.  (Talked to a tourney host this past weekend (not Iron Eagle) and he told me this was the highest # of kids they have had sign up for there tourney in years.  So in his eyes the process seems to be working.)

 

I gave up on hosting tourneys at Madison because the last 3 years we hosted we had only 40-60 kids sign up.  If the rules seems to help #'s I might consider hosting one again.  I will wait to see after State on the true effect this has had on the attendance.  At the local level though the numbers seem to be up at the sites our club has attended.  

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For next year it might help with numbers if hosting schools kept wrestling on Sunday instead of Saturday where it conflicts with kids playing other sports.

 

Question for hosting schools:

 

Is there any reason to have freestyle on Saturday vs Sunday?

 

Most Folkstyle Tournaments are on Sunday, but almost all Freestyle tournaments are on Saturday.

Edited by wwatson
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Most Folkstyle Tournaments are on Sunday, but almost all Freestyle tournaments are on Saturday.

 

The trend of most Folkstyle Tournaments being on Sunday mostlyhas come from piggy backing off of the Saturday HS wrestling events at the school.  Only Sunday was available and with everyhing already set up the youth event was easy to host the following day.   In some cases where their was no Saturday wrestling events a basketball events may have been the reason for hosting on Sunday.   

 

Freestyle on Saturdays has been a long standing trend as the wrestling day which is why it likely continues.  Plus in many communities it may have something to do with trying to to interfear with Sunday church events more than already is occuring.

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This rule will not be good for numbers and wont get some of the kids that are in other sports. It is a shame my son has wrestled this event since he was pee wee 35  . took 1st last year and we wont be there this year because of the new rule. Hopefully they will make an amendment.

Same here.

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Same here.

Thirded..but as a runnerup here. So this is confusing...Coach Hull and, I assume ISWA, want to increase the FS/GK Team IN skill level/Natl Team performances by mandating local level competition. Yet it seems from this limited sample size blog arena (no offense Y2..just don't know how many Central IN people have/utilize the tech! ) that 3 kids that have excelled in the past without mandates/ultimatums (so they had the internal drive to do so and didn't need pushing) are now excluded from participating in their State Series and thus ineligible for Natl teams if they were cadet or lower. That is sad. I know these kids are Junior level so they can be "invited" to participate at Natl's but to not be able to go to State is a travesty. I also know that these 3 can/will be offset by far more being eligible and hopefully attending ISWA state, but this is proof again that a "grandfather" type clause to start out might have been a better way to go so as to not cause animosity for those who have supported the styles/ISWA without ultimatums and mandates, while at the same time promoting future growth down the road.

 

I can't speak for others, but I'm not bitter..just extremely disappointed in the whole situation.

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Why couldn't we give an exemption to the kids who have been wrestling USAWRESTLING events like National Scholastic Duals at Crawfordsville or Asics Folkstyle Nationals at Cedar Falls? If you would even count or exempt one tournament towards the 2 minimum tally it would help some of these kids towards competing. I know they're Folkstyle BUT your trying to bring along your wrestlers and it is up to all of us to grow Indiana.

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Why couldn't we give an exemption to the kids who have been wrestling USAWRESTLING events like National Scholastic Duals at Crawfordsville or Asics Folkstyle Nationals at Cedar Falls? If you would even count or exempt one tournament towards the 2 minimum tally it would help some of these kids towards competing. I know they're Folkstyle BUT your trying to bring along your wrestlers and it is up to all of us to grow Indiana.

Last I saw those were ISWA signs above the clocks on all the mats at Scholastic Duals in Crawfordsville.  IMO it doesn't effect my kid at this point.  It has been talked about, ISWA is aware of how people feel and they are okay with it.  I'm not going to cry over things I am not able to do at this time; like take drives down to have meeting in Indy land every month, make 2 tournaments to qualify or other things that I am conceding because people refuse to change things that are broke.   It is not an impossible venture there are several working models out there to go by.  Pick one and stay the course.  ISWA goes 15 years or so with requiring placement in local tournaments, than change it a few years back stating kids do not need to qualify at local level.  Big shock that local tournaments numbers drop.  If ISWA wants to make a difference they need to start a ground roots campaign and push wrestling in Indiana or have programs set up to do so.  Instead of demanding people do what they want them to do. 

 

Warsaw has kids that want to go, but are in odd sizes.  When they go they are the only ones there, if they watch 2-3 different tournament to see where they can go no one is at anyone of them.  Sure is a lot of money to spend to take kids to tournaments.  15-40 entry, 35 card (has to be bought on one of the weeks), 30 gas, 30-50 meals, spectator fees of 20-30 and other expenses.  Or I take my kid to the local Y, community park (soccer or baseball) for a one time fee of 50-100 dollars for several weeks of competition.  Both ways probably spend equal amount in gear.  I know we charge a small fee each year of 40 for 3 months of 2 days a week practice, mainly to cover insurance and if people cannot pay we let it slide. Lets face it the wrestling communities don't have the wealthiest families, from my experience. 

 

I'm not the answer maker, but I do love the sport of wrestling and I feel we are pushing kids out of the sport.  Something will have to give soon, High Schools and clubs cannot afford to have tournaments with only 100ish wrestlers.  This is about the break even number, if you are efficient in my view and experience.  Very Sad!!!!

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Here is a mapped out version of all the Freestyle events in the last 2 months.  I included The FS Duals though i am not sure if they are qualifiers.

 

 

You missed Huntington.  The North has had plenty of tournaments (ISWA did a good job of boosting up the amount), numbers are just low and by low I mean very low.  I personally am not going to send my son to a tournament for 2 matches (unless they are quality ones) when I can get him much more quality matches by getting together with friends for free or going to RTC's.  Now if these tournaments were 10 deep per weight class, than we would be talking something different, but with the older groups that has always been a strugle.  I think the argument, at least for me is that ISWA is forcing the upper 10% to make a choice (commit 3-4 weeks to ISWA freestyle or compete in national wrestling events or spring school sports).  The other thing that is interesting to me is that all the "small school & class supporters" are not throwing a fit about this.  These small schools have to use their athletes in all 3 sport seasons.  So, to me it ISWA is saying choose wrestling or get out. Either way to me this is stupid, because you are taking away some of the best kids from the state events.  I understand their thinking, I just think that they went about it the wrong way.  I also believe that it will hurt Freestyle for a little while, if not long term here in Indiana.

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This could alieviated if they moved state back a couple weeks or bumped Folkstyle State up a week or two

I think this begs a larger question.  Why do we need an ISWA folkstyle state for high school wrestlers?  Especially two weeks after IHSAA state.

 

Imop, there is a major benefit to having ISWA folkstyle state for pee-wee through cadet (meaning cadets not in hs).  But I don't see the benefit for hs wrestlers.  

 

I know there are some reasons for ISWA folkstyle state for hs kids like the triple crown, revenue and qualifying for folkstyle nationals.  But imop those aren't beneficial enough to keep us from starting freestyle immediately the week after IHSAA state.

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You missed Huntington.  The North has had plenty of tournaments (ISWA did a good job of boosting up the amount), numbers are just low and by low I mean very low.  I personally am not going to send my son to a tournament for 2 matches (unless they are quality ones) when I can get him much more quality matches by getting together with friends for free or going to RTC's.  Now if these tournaments were 10 deep per weight class, than we would be talking something different, but with the older groups that has always been a strugle.  I think the argument, at least for me is that ISWA is forcing the upper 10% to make a choice (commit 3-4 weeks to ISWA freestyle or compete in national wrestling events or spring school sports).  The other thing that is interesting to me is that all the "small school & class supporters" are not throwing a fit about this.  These small schools have to use their athletes in all 3 sport seasons.  So, to me it ISWA is saying choose wrestling or get out. Either way to me this is stupid, because you are taking away some of the best kids from the state events.  I understand their thinking, I just think that they went about it the wrong way.  I also believe that it will hurt Freestyle for a little while, if not long term here in Indiana.

 

This brings up a interesting point.  Trackwrestling is a awesome tool and helps with so many things but think how many of you have waited till the last minute to register your kids because you wanted to see if anyone would be in the weight or worse yet i have heard certain parents wanting to dodge other wrestlers.  So before you signed up without knowing who would be in your weight, but now with track (for all the good it does I do see this as a negative side effect) we have people not signing up because only two kids are signed up.  Well how many people see those first two kids and are waiting till more sign up before they sign up?  So we could have 10 wrestlers who are in the same weight waiting for more than 2 to sign up and they never do.  So we go from a possible weight with 12 kids to 2 because of the convenience of Track wrestling.

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This brings up a interesting point.  Trackwrestling is a awesome tool and helps with so many things but think how many of you have waited till the last minute to register your kids because you wanted to see if anyone would be in the weight or worse yet i have heard certain parents wanting to dodge other wrestlers.  So before you signed up without knowing who would be in your weight, but now with track (for all the good it does I do see this as a negative side effect) we have people not signing up because only two kids are signed up.  Well how many people see those first two kids and are waiting till more sign up before they sign up?  So we could have 10 wrestlers who are in the same weight waiting for more than 2 to sign up and they never do.  So we go from a possible weight with 12 kids to 2 because of the convenience of Track wrestling.

I am not sure as I am not an administrator or setup a tourney thru track, but I assume there is a way to suppress the "wrestler list" and "matrix" as some tourneys do not have those "lists" available at sign up. Also, the Portage tourney last week just had division and no weight listed for the entrants. So I assume those fields can be manipulated/suppressed. Not sure tho.

 

Ahh for the "good ol' days" of snail mail, newspapers and lead paint....

 

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This brings up a interesting point.  Trackwrestling is a awesome tool and helps with so many things but think how many of you have waited till the last minute to register your kids because you wanted to see if anyone would be in the weight or worse yet i have heard certain parents wanting to dodge other wrestlers.  So before you signed up without knowing who would be in your weight, but now with track (for all the good it does I do see this as a negative side effect) we have people not signing up because only two kids are signed up.  Well how many people see those first two kids and are waiting till more sign up before they sign up?  So we could have 10 wrestlers who are in the same weight waiting for more than 2 to sign up and they never do.  So we go from a possible weight with 12 kids to 2 because of the convenience of Track wrestling.

This is true.....I have paid my dues over the last 8 years.  Only in the last few years has this been able to be done.  I have gone to many tournaments to have my son wrestle 1-2 matches.  I also have been to some where we are closing the gym (mainly ISWA state), but there have been others.  I would probably not go to a tournament now, unless it was within 30 miles without knowing about how many kids were going to be there.  We do go to some tournaments, like Hyway State to pay them back and help build there numbers.  The main reason is because they let us wrestle at Nationals 3 or 4 years ago even though we couldn't make it to state one year when my son was younger.

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I think this begs a larger question.  Why do we need an ISWA folkstyle state for high school wrestlers?  Especially two weeks after IHSAA state.

 

Imop, there is a major benefit to having ISWA folkstyle state for pee-wee through cadet (meaning cadets not in hs).  But I don't see the benefit for hs wrestlers.  

 

I know there are some reasons for ISWA folkstyle state for hs kids like the triple crown, revenue and qualifying for folkstyle nationals.  But imop those aren't beneficial enough to keep us from starting freestyle immediately the week after IHSAA state.

 Yeah they can get rid of Folkstyle state. but that will kill the revenue and numbers more so than they already are. You would probably also  see an influx of NUWAY/HYWAY events to cater to the folkstyle crowd.  Big risk but would increase the amount of chances to qualify for freestyle state.

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I am not sure as I am not an administrator or setup a tourney thru track, but I assume there is a way to suppress the "wrestler list" and "matrix" as some tourneys do not have those "lists" available at sign up. Also, the Portage tourney last week just had division and no weight listed for the entrants. So I assume those fields can be manipulated/suppressed. Not sure tho.

 

Ahh for the "good ol' days" of snail mail, newspapers and lead paint....

 

Yea unless every tourney elected to do it where you couldn't see how many signed up and in what weight then the tourneys that did this would most likely get passed over or boycotted.

 

Its a double edge sword.  Track has helped at so many levels but has caused the wrestling community the ability to be "picky" on where they attend rather than just going to a tourney on faith.

 

So just another viewpoint on why certain tourneys have higher attendance than others. 

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