ENoblewrestling Posted March 1, 2015 Share Posted March 1, 2015 And I would argue that less kids in a program does put each individual at a disadvantage. I'm just using Penn because we are close to them and we see them at regional. But them having 75 kids in their roster is an advantage over Rochester with 22 kids. Yes, as a team and an individual. My Hwt who went to state had only the 220 and 195 to practice with. While I'm sure at Penn, their HWT had numerous partners...it makes a difference. You can't use the argument that the team is at a disadvantage and then say it doesn't affect the individual. And their varsity B team would probably win the class A title so my point stands. Why do you deserve it more than they do? I don't get what your arguing here... what is the point of even having a classed tournament then, or even any concept of team wrestling. The goal of the Class A tournament is to find the best small school team. Penn is not a small school, Penn's JV would not be considered part of a small school. In what world would Penn's JV be considered for the small competition? I guess if the "Class A Division" were actually the "Class A and Big School JV Division" your point would have some validity. There are a lot of teams that could win the Class A state title, that's the point of classing it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KarlHungus Posted March 1, 2015 Share Posted March 1, 2015 (edited) Individual wrestlers do not train in a vacuum. Numbers matter, facilities matter, number of coaches matter. Edited March 1, 2015 by KarlHungus Stickman and combatspeed06 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ENoblewrestling Posted March 1, 2015 Share Posted March 1, 2015 There is absolutely no logic here. The Penn kid has another state qualifier and probably two that he trains with. To not admit this as an advantage is laughable. Having better practice partners is an advantage. Small school kids can also have good practice partners. It's not like our good kids are just sitting and wrestling Adam dummies the whole practice. Our better kids often times will comeback in and help coach or we go out and try to find coaches to wrestle with our better kids. The whole better practice partner argument does hold water for sure but it isn't like you can't do anything about it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Galagore Posted March 1, 2015 Share Posted March 1, 2015 Having better practice partners is an advantage. Small school kids can also have good practice partners. It's not like our good kids are just sitting and wrestling Adam dummies the whole practice. Our better kids often times will comeback in and help coach or we go out and try to find coaches to wrestle with our better kids. The whole better practice partner argument does hold water for sure but it isn't like you can't do anything about it. Hope all those extra visitors are being vetted by your school board or administration...otherwise, that is a violation of IHSAA rules. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ENoblewrestling Posted March 1, 2015 Share Posted March 1, 2015 Hope all those extra visitors are being vetted by your school board or administration...otherwise, that is a violation of IHSAA rules.We have it covered. Thanks for your concern. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Galagore Posted March 1, 2015 Share Posted March 1, 2015 No. That's also not what any kid who I have ever coached who made it to state had to deal with either. I would work on your practice schedule I guess. We have it covered. Thanks for your concern. Interesting combo of posts, here.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
decbell1 Posted March 1, 2015 Share Posted March 1, 2015 I don't get what your arguing here... what is the point of even having a classed tournament then, or even any concept of team wrestling. The goal of the Class A tournament is to find the best small school team. Penn is not a small school, Penn's JV would not be considered part of a small school. In what world would Penn's JV be considered for the small competition? I guess if the "Class A Division" were actually the "Class A and Big School JV Division" your point would have some validity. There are a lot of teams that could win the Class A state title, that's the point of classing it. His argument was way over your head, that's why you don't understand it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KarlHungus Posted March 1, 2015 Share Posted March 1, 2015 (edited) Having better practice partners is an advantage. Small school kids can also have good practice partners. It's not like our good kids are just sitting and wrestling Adam dummies the whole practice. Our better kids often times will comeback in and help coach or we go out and try to find coaches to wrestle with our better kids. The whole better practice partner argument does hold water for sure but it isn't like you can't do anything about it. Penn has 10 state qualifiers and Busco has one....Penn logically has the better practice partners and therefore by your definition their individuals have an ADVANTAGE. Your good kids are not as good as Penn's state qualifiers so your point is meaningless because Penn's INDIVIDUALS have an advantage. Numbers matter for both the team and individuals. Your last sentence is very telling.....It seems you have finally admitted that numbers matter for the individual but you are resigned to live with it. At least we are past that fallacy. Edited March 1, 2015 by KarlHungus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ENoblewrestling Posted March 1, 2015 Share Posted March 1, 2015 Interesting combo of posts, here.... This one is over my head...not sure what your getting at Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ENoblewrestling Posted March 1, 2015 Share Posted March 1, 2015 His argument was way over your head, that's why you don't understand it His argument was that Penn's JV would win the 1A title so why should we be acknowledged for winning the class 1A title when they are better. It didn't make any sense to me because Penn's JV wouldn't qualify for class 1A. I assumed we both agreed that the class portion of wrestling should be classed, so I assumed we both agreed that we should have a small school class, and that Penn's JV participating in it would not be in the direction we should be heading. If he was trying to compare this argument to mine against the class individual tournament then I guess it didn't make sense to me because I see the two as completely different things. If you are simply referring to a post I made in another thread than I guess I've figured out what your getting at with this post. If not I would love it if you'd let me in on what went over my head. Penn has 10 state qualifiers and Busco has one....Penn logically has the better practice partners and therefore by your definition their individuals have an ADVANTAGE. Your good kids are not as good as Penn's state qualifiers so your point is meaningless because Penn's INDIVIDUALS have an advantage. Numbers matter for both the team and individuals. Your last sentence is very telling.....It seems you have finally admitted that numbers matter for the individual but you are resigned to live with it. At least we are past that fallacy. Works for me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KarlHungus Posted March 1, 2015 Share Posted March 1, 2015 Does your logical inconsistency not bother you? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ENoblewrestling Posted March 1, 2015 Share Posted March 1, 2015 What does the fact that you have coached two state Champs in the past five years say about the logic of your argument? Obviously it's not impossible for small school individuals, you guys are the perfect example of that. SooperBod 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Y2CJ41 Posted March 1, 2015 Share Posted March 1, 2015 1300ish 1A wrestlers entered the state tournament...1 made it under the lights 1300ish 3A wrestlers entered the state tournament....24 made it under the lights...heck more made it under the lights from the 1300 3A kids than even qualified for state from 1A You shouldn't have to work your brain too hard to see something is amiss here. NavyGonzo, Barry Humble Jr. and combatspeed06 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KarlHungus Posted March 1, 2015 Share Posted March 1, 2015 (edited) What does the fact that you have coached two state Champs in the past five years say about the logic of your argument? Obviously it's not impossible for small school individuals, you guys are the perfect example of that. My logic is sound. The numbers show it to be sound. You bringing up our successes is called an anecdotal fallacy. Isolated examples do not prove your point. Edited March 1, 2015 by KarlHungus bog190, Major Ursula and combatspeed06 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PreparetoWin Posted March 1, 2015 Share Posted March 1, 2015 I would like to put my two cents in....I was an assistant at a 3A school and now I am an assistant at a 2A school. When I was at the larger school I did not understand the problems smaller schools have. Let me say I am still on the fence about the individual side of our tournament. Is it impossible to have a state placer in a smaller school, nope. Is it inconceivable, to even beat bigger schools as a team once in awhile, nope. But it sure is a lot more difficult to acquire the same amount of success. If our kids want to go to an "open mat" or RTC at a large school they have to travel 30 min to find the closest one. The next closest is 45 min- 60 min travel. You know how far away it is for a these kids to go to a Club that might have a room full of state qualifier caliber kids?? If you cant grasp that there is a disadvantage for a small school in a small town for individuals, then you kidding yourself. How can a a kid who has better practice partners, better facilities, more coaches, more money, more access to other clubs and schools not have an advantage? Major Ursula and Clint Gard 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fearless fly Posted March 1, 2015 Share Posted March 1, 2015 1300ish 1A wrestlers entered the state tournament...1 made it under the lights 1300ish 3A wrestlers entered the state tournament....24 made it under the lights...heck more made it under the lights from the 1300 3A kids than even qualified for state from 1A You shouldn't have to work your brain too hard to see something is amiss here. there you go again....sigh ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Major Ursula Posted March 1, 2015 Share Posted March 1, 2015 (edited) I went to 3 different high schools:SB LaSalle, SB Washington, Fort Wayne Snider. In those days all were elite programs. There was no way back then that small schools could compete with us. Too many students. Too many career wrestlers. Those who couldn't afford it got free offseason training. I lived in Iowa for 15 years. Indiana puts on a better show grant it. Iowa has a 3 class system and let me tell you: The kids from Alburnett, and Don Bosco,(2A)were just as happy as the kids from Iowa City West and Southeast Polk(3A). Parents and whole communities are invested in the smaller schools. They cheer louder and literally have cheerleaders at matside! Imagine Churubusco at Banker's life, cheerleaders and all! Imagine Twin Lakes or Benton Central with several qualifiers and those entire communities present! The money, the pageantry, the recognition for the little guy! I'm not just agreeing with Clint because we both went to "The Chet"; I like the show Indiana puts on. I like that it's difficult to be a state qualifier. I just don't think our current format is fair to the little schools. Edited March 1, 2015 by CommWayne Clint Gard 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Y2CJ41 Posted March 1, 2015 Share Posted March 1, 2015 there you go again....sigh ! Those crazy number things, they just don't go away. Amazing how one side can argue using facts and the other uses emotion and the ever popular "work harder" methodology. combatspeed06 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fearless fly Posted March 1, 2015 Share Posted March 1, 2015 using numbers(3 class) that aren't part of the argument(2 class) is hardly factual...me thinks it is deceitful ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Y2CJ41 Posted March 1, 2015 Share Posted March 1, 2015 Of course using numbers is deceitful isn't it? 22 state qualifiers from teams 102-150 in the state and 21 from teams 0-101....nothing wrong here....that's how it should be. Small schools need to realize the peak of their season should be regional. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shoottowin Posted March 2, 2015 Share Posted March 2, 2015 Something wrong with "emotion" and "work(ing) harder?" Many great things can come from both. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Y2CJ41 Posted March 2, 2015 Share Posted March 2, 2015 Something wrong with "emotion" and "work(ing) harder?" Many great things can come from both. Are you saying that the reason small school athletes don't make it to state is that they don't work hard enough? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
warsawwrestling Posted March 2, 2015 Share Posted March 2, 2015 Are you saying that the reason small school athletes don't make it to state is that they don't work hard enough? I would maybe say not pushed to their limits, because of lack of partners, lack of leadership from older kids and/or lack of support. Some of those could be considered not working hard enough. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KarlHungus Posted March 2, 2015 Share Posted March 2, 2015 I would maybe say not pushed to their limits, because of lack of partners, lack of leadership from older kids and/or lack of support. Some of those could be considered not working hard enough. That sounds more like working with advantages more than working hard. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barry Humble Jr. Posted March 2, 2015 Share Posted March 2, 2015 Are you saying that the reason small school athletes don't make it to state is that they don't work hard enough? I would say a small school state placer does more off season work than a big school state placer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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