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Some more stats from 2015 State


oldandbroke

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3. They argue about 1A kids not being able to compete with 3A kids. Classing wrestling will not make this fact any better. 1A wrestling will not be as good as 3A wrestling in depth or elite talent simply due to the probability of a school of 300 kids having elite wrestlers compared to a school of 4000 kids.

 

 

That's the reason for a classed tourney? Two years ago I was 100% for no classes. Why? Because I wouldn't want to win 1a state and then see the post like "he couldn't of even placed at 3a state!" But after a few experiences at my school over the past few years I would definitely consider classing it.  

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Strength of schedule? Maybe they lack the experience of wrestling intense tourneys because they are a 1A school and larger schools typically dont waste their time wrestling schools with only a few elite athletes. Hence why Penn sends its JV team to some of their dual meets. Maybe because those 1A kids only spent 70% of their summer on wrestling and 30% on football. Which is their choice. Not that they dont have the coaches or blah blah blah

According to our friend in Turtletown the allotments are predetermined and it is people born with this skillset to become a placer or champion. Those factors should not matter if they have the skillset aka the "state placer" gene.

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That's the reason for a classed tourney? Two years ago I was 100% for no classes. Why? Because I wouldn't want to win 1a state and then see the post like "he couldn't of even placed at 3a state!" But after a few experiences at my school over the past few years I would definitely consider classing it.  

Yes thats a reason for a classed tourney. Their whole belief is that 1A wrestlers have an unfair disadvantage and cant compete with 3A wrestlers..

According to our friend in Turtletown the allotments are predetermined and it is people born with this skillset to become a placer or champion. Those factors should not matter if they have the skillset aka the "state placer" gene.

How would they not matter? I can have 100% slow twitch muscle fibers (Which is essentially impossible, but ideal for long distance running) but if i dont dedicate myself to the event i will not be successful at it even if i have the genes

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Having now read through this topic, I come away with a couple things that need to be resolved before anything can be decided about this topic.

 

First, the large disagreement is whether or not individuals have equal opportunities to succeed at a 1A school as compared to a 3A school. I can tell you anecdotally (not gonna throw numbers out there at you, sorry) that I believe this to be true. Not only are 1A wrestlers committing more of their free time to other sports instead of specializing, the schools themselves lack the ability to attract high quality coaches that can build the program, leading to more wrestlers, growing of the sport,etc:

 

Think of it this way: If there are 5 English teachers at a school like Monrovia and 15 at a school like Mooresville where I currently work, there is a higher probability of there being an opening for an English Teaching Coach. Most of us agree that having a coach in the building makes recruiting and retaining wrestlers infinitely easier so having a job in the building for your coach helps your program. Small schools can't always offer this, let alone anywhere near the coaching stipend because their budgets are smaller. Even if you get an awesome fella who knows his stuff out there, who's going to help him? Even at a school of 358 kids, one coach can't do it himself and often there is only one stipend and it's not very big, certainly not big enough to split it up. So you rely on volunteers. Someone has to set up a youth league or club. Someone needs to run MS. You need enough coaches at the HS to help the kids of different levels become better wrestlers.

 

Because of this conundrum, even if a small school has the unique opportunity to produce a state qualifier or placer, AND that particular individual wants to go into education they cannot always offer a job to them to be on staff because of their limited number of openings. This pushes many graduates into schools that already have many advantages because they have more options to attract a wider array of coaches.

 

Quality coaches make for better wrestlers because they can develop these kids. If a school struggles just to find a quality coaching staff, how can they expect to have great individuals on their team?

 

Before I get the "these individuals just need to work harder in the off-season" argument. The IHSAA by-laws require a wrestler to only practice with his own teammates or coaches during the season. What if there's only one wrestler at that school who is putting in a ton of offseason work? He doesn't have quality practice partners to push him during the season and make himself better. His coaches may or may not be great wrestlers, but if there aren't enough of them, what does the coach do? Sacrifice his team's development so he can drill with his one stud to make him better? Or let his stud help out with the less experienced guys to build for the future? It's really a lose-lose.

 

I think if class wrestling was implemented, it could increase the interest at some of the smaller schools in being a state-qualifier, even if it is "watered-down". after they see their buddy come home with a state placement metal. Some of the fringe kids that didn't do it before are now in the room  and some are finding success. And as the team finds success, the numbers grow because people like to win. Because people like to win, these programs are getting more money invested in them by the schools and the community. More money from clubs and Athletic departments, leads to more cash in the budget for coaches to attract more assistants, to get new mats, to get singlets that weren't worn by their grandparent's generation and do things that will attract more kids to the sport.

 

I understand not everyone has experienced small school life, but I hope that you can see that the current system is not fair to these student-athletes. Why would a school with a tiny budget allot much to a wrestling program that has been a perennial loser and has 4 kids that don't get even get out of sectionals? It's a vicious cycle

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Yes thats a reason for a classed tourney. Their whole belief is that 1A wrestlers have an unfair disadvantage and cant compete with 3A wrestlers..

It's not a belief, its a fact they can't compete (for the most part). South Adams is actually looking for a head coach, you could come and see for yourself the disadvantages.

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Maybe we should start a thread to come up with ideas to increase off season opportunities for 1A schools and try to be productive with changing something thats in our control right here right now rather than argue about just a single option to achomplish this task?

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Yes thats a reason for a classed tourney. Their whole belief is that 1A wrestlers have an unfair disadvantage and cant compete with 3A wrestlers..

This has been shown in the statistics.

 

How would they not matter? I can have 100% slow twitch muscle fibers (Which is essentially impossible, but ideal for long distance running) but if i dont dedicate myself to the event i will not be successful at it even if i have the genes

That is what your single class friend stated. Just following along with his reasoning. Don't shoot the messenger, go after our Turtletown friend. He is slow so you can catch him.
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It's not a belief, its a fact they can't compete (for the most part). South Adams is actually looking for a head coach, you could come and see for yourself the disadvantages.

I would love to coach absolutely love it. This sport gave more to me than i could ever aknowledge. I have been searching for a room just to help out in and try to give back to the sport what it gave to me.  I know the disatvantages, i attended a small school not too many years ago. I faced the disatvantages, but specializing wasn't something i was willing to do which is why i was never a state qualifier.

This has been shown in the statistics.

 

That is what your single class friend stated. Just following along with his reasoning. Don't shoot the messenger, go after our Turtletown friend. He is slow so you can catch him.

This doesn't discount his logic though. It just goes to show its about commiting to being an elite athlete. Small schools have less of a probability to have these individuals. And even the ones that they have CHOOSE not to specialize. Its not that they have a disadvantage its because of the athletes CHOICE.

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I would love to coach absolutely love it. This sport gave more to me than i could ever aknowledge. I have been searching for a room just to help out in and try to give back to the sport what it gave to me.  I know the disatvantages, i attended a small school not too many years ago. I faced the disatvantages, but specializing wasn't something i was willing to do which is why i was never a state qualifier.

This doesn't discount his logic though. It just goes to show its about commiting to being an elite athlete. Small schools have less of a probability to have these individuals. And even the ones that they have CHOOSE not to specialize. Its not that they have a disadvantage its because of the athletes CHOICE.

Umm the statistic discount his logic

 

The "state qualifier" gene is evenly spread out, but the "state placer" and "state champion" genes are seemingly left out of the 1A pool. Using his logic our gene pool has some problems.

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Umm the statistic discount his logic

 

The "state qualifier" gene is evenly spread out, but the "state placer" and "state champion" genes are seemingly left out of the 1A pool. Using his logic our gene pool has some problems.

Because:

 

1: Those damn red heads

2: Hillbillys without teeth

3: Inbreeding

 

AND THOSE MY FRIENDS ARE FACTS

 

But really they are not left out. It just shows that those 1A kids are not specializing like big school kids are. It's that simple... If those qualifiers weren't also going to football camps and so on they would have probably placed

Edited by Super_Fan
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On a side note, look at the team classed state tournament. 1A schools love that! I know some schools like Adams Central have  greatly improved the last few years. I would say most of their motivation comes from wanting to win that tournament. This in result has built their program up (numbers, coaching, and strength). Having a classed tournament would build up the numbers and eventually strength of smaller schools. 

Edited by Barry Humble Jr.
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On a side note, look at the team classed state tournament. 1A schools love that! I know some schools like Adams Central have improved greatly improved the last few years. I would say most of their motivation comes from wanting to win that tournament. This in result has built their program up (numbers, coaching, and strength). Having a classed tournament would build up the numbers and eventually strength of smaller schools. 

I will agree with this. But its obvious next year no matter what side of this arguement your on we will not have a classed tourney. Sooo what can we do this summer to increase the amount of kids wrestling, besides argueing about class wrestling? Thats what I would rather be discussing...

Edited by Super_Fan
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On a side note, look at the team classed state tournament. 1A schools love that! I know some schools like Adams Central have improved greatly improved the last few years. I would say most of their motivation comes from wanting to win that tournament. This in result has built their program up (numbers, coaching, and strength). Having a classed tournament would build up the numbers and eventually strength of smaller schools. 

According to our friend from Turtletown he can recruit kids for an IHSWCA team state event, but if wrestling were classed they are too smart to figure out it would be easier to win.

 

However, I agree with you.

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According to our friend from Turtletown he can recruit kids for an IHSWCA team state event, but if wrestling were classed they are too smart to figure out it would be easier to win.

 

However, I agree with you.

Instead of personally attacking him why don't you take his opinion and use it to tweek and comprimise your class wrestling opinion so EVERYONE could agree upon it?

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Instead of personally attacking him why don't you take his opinion and use it to tweek and comprimise your class wrestling opinion so EVERYONE could agree upon it?

I'm not attacking, I'm using his arguments and reiterating them for others to see.

 

It is a valid point that kids will come out for team aspects and they probably would shun coming out for an individual class event. 

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I will agree with this. But its obvious next year no matter what side of this arguement your on we will not have a classed tourney. Sooo what can we do this summer to increase the amount of kids wrestling, besides argueing about class wrestling? Thats what I would rather be discussing...

What would be some of your ideas for increasing the amount of kids at small kids this wrestling this off season.

I'll be running a RTC starting soon at South Adams along with driving kids from several other schools to Ohio twice a week. 

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I'm not attacking, I'm using his arguments and reiterating them for others to see.

 

It is a valid point that kids will come out for team aspects and they probably would shun coming out for an individual class event. 

You are attacking him and you have been intentionally condescending/arrogant throughout this entire thread.  

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What would be some of your ideas for increasing the amount of kids at small kids this wrestling this off season.

I'll be running a RTC starting soon at South Adams along with driving kids from several other schools to Ohio twice a week. 

Fund raising at local events a, to advertise your team and b, raise money to send kids to camps over the summer?

 

Start ISWA wrestling clubs and use fundraising money to car pool kids as a team to these events so parents don't have to pay for it themselves.

 

Im not sure. I'm sure there are lots of ideas out there.

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Fund raising at local events a, to advertise your team and b, raise money to send kids to camps over the summer?

 

Start ISWA wrestling clubs and use fundraising money to car pool kids as a team to these events so parents don't have to pay for it themselves.

 

Im not sure. I'm sure there are lots of ideas out there.

Okay, good ideas. But what happens when your the only person on your team that does extra and when the season comes back around and you have..

1) No decent drill partners or maybe just one

2) You have to spend a hour a practice watching your coach demonstrate a half nelson

3) You spend another 1/2 hour of the practice helping kids because you want a successful team

4) After you're done with this you stay after to drill w/ coaches and your brother because you want to get a good workout yourself

 

This year I spent a TON of time helping my team, up till about the conference tournament then I started focusing on myself

Helping my team including planning practices( the drills and conditioning we would do that day), Hanging papers on around the room such as "Head Position" as a reminder. Scouting other teams and individuals, helping kids one - on - one, helping kids cut weight (taking them to the gym to run, helping with diet), and the hardest part, trying to get them to want to win.

 

On top of that I was also trying to win a state championship myself. Was it my job to do all of that? No, but I took it upon to myself to do it. 

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Fund raising at local events a, to advertise your team and b, raise money to send kids to camps over the summer?

 

Start ISWA wrestling clubs and use fundraising money to car pool kids as a team to these events so parents don't have to pay for it themselves.

 

Im not sure. I'm sure there are lots of ideas out there.

Even if they have a club they still need kids able to go. Some have jobs or are in another sport. We had a club when I was in high school, I was 112lbs and the only partner I had was 152lbs. That was a lot of fun.

Money isn't a problem at those schools, it's not a money issue.

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First off the only stat that 1A isn't close to 13% in is placers and champs.  Simply add Mater Dei to the 1A numbers and your data all becomes pretty much useless.  Secondly you asked me to try to explain why we see a drop off in placers, which I attempted to do, to be honest I am just trying to find a possible reason, I am not saying it is correct. Either way let me try to make my thought process a little more clear to you.

 

When I say that 13% of the qualifiers is what you would expect, that is when you look at the entire population of 1A.  If we are looking at 100% of the 1A population then it should be 13%.  

 

As we start to look at a talent that fewer and fewer people with-in the population has, you could eliminate some of the 1A school from the original population because they never had anyone in their school with that talent to begin with. So eventually you would be looking at 8 or 9% of the population not 13%.  

 

13% should still be 7 foot.

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Okay, good ideas. But what happens when your the only person on your team that does extra and when the season comes back around and you have..

1) No decent drill partners or maybe just one

2) You have to spend a hour a practice watching your coach demonstrate a half nelson

3) You spend another 1/2 hour of the practice helping kids because you want a successful team

4) After you're done with this you stay after to drill w/ coaches and your brother because you want to get a good workout yourself

 

This year I spent a TON of time helping my team, up till about the conference tournament then I started focusing on myself

Helping my team including planning practices( the drills and conditioning we would do that day), Hanging papers on around the room such as "Head Position" as a reminder. Scouting other teams and individuals, helping kids one - on - one, helping kids cut weight (taking them to the gym to run, helping with diet), and the hardest part, trying to get them to want to win.

 

On top of that I was also trying to win a state championship myself. Was it my job to do all of that? No, but I took it upon to myself to do it. 

 

I wonder how many other state qualifiers at 120 had all these "advantages".  Our state qualifier had a similar experience as you this season and the advice busco gave me was to "look at my practice schedule".   

 

How anyone can look at your experience and say you were on anything close to an equal playing field is baffling.  

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Okay, good ideas. But what happens when your the only person on your team that does extra and when the season comes back around and you have..

1) No decent drill partners or maybe just one

2) You have to spend a hour a practice watching your coach demonstrate a half nelson

3) You spend another 1/2 hour of the practice helping kids because you want a successful team

4) After you're done with this you stay after to drill w/ coaches and your brother because you want to get a good workout yourself

 

This year I spent a TON of time helping my team, up till about the conference tournament then I started focusing on myself

Helping my team including planning practices( the drills and conditioning we would do that day), Hanging papers on around the room such as "Head Position" as a reminder. Scouting other teams and individuals, helping kids one - on - one, helping kids cut weight (taking them to the gym to run, helping with diet), and the hardest part, trying to get them to want to win.

 

On top of that I was also trying to win a state championship myself. Was it my job to do all of that? No, but I took it upon to myself to do it. 

Sounds like my practice schedule a few years ago. Besides practice partners i dont see how this doesn't happen at a larger school too. They still have freshman and rookies that they have to teach half nelsons to. They still have their varsity kids help the first time varsity kids because they want a successful team. And more than likely the kids who want to be on the elite level and place at state stay after practice.

 

Classing wrestling wont get you any BETTER practice partners. Maybe more but that wont necessarily help a semi state level kid get to semi state because the kids he now has as practice partners are still going to be way below his level.

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Sounds like my practice schedule a few years ago. Besides practice partners i dont see how this doesn't happen at a larger school too. They still have freshman and rookies that they have to teach half nelsons to. They still have their varsity kids help the first time varsity kids because they want a successful team. And more than likely the kids who want to be on the elite level and place at state stay after practice.

 

Classing wrestling wont get you any BETTER practice partners. Maybe more but that wont necessarily help a semi state level kid get to semi state because the kids he now has as practice partners are still going to be way below his level.

I know what a lot of your teammates did in the spring and summer because I saw them two days a week. 

 

More wrestlers is good, more practice partners is good. For some odd reason you don't want more people participating in this sport. You only care about the good kids coming out for the sport and that is sad. There are plenty that will have positive experiences and become a coach, ref, parent, or super fan someday.

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