Some more stats from 2015 State

[warsawwrestling]

So you understand that more fans and wrestlers at state is GOOD for the sport, yet you still cannot fathom a classed system? Is that what you are saying?

This is my personal feelings.  But you cannot pick and choice my quotes.  I gave an exception of how I personally could see it being okay.  You are talking to a coach that is lucky to get 15-20 kids to come out a year at a school with 2200 students.  Trust me I understand the hardships of a small program.  It just doesn't happen at schools with only 500 students. 

[Wrestling Scholar]

This is hard to answer, because I do understand that more kids mean more people at state, means more money and popularity for the sport.  I would say yes to only 8 qualifiers with 2 classes as long as there were true wrestlebacks.

Why not 16 per class?

[ENoblewrestling]

So if your team is good it deserves a watered down recognition, but if an individual is good he doesn't deserve that same type of recognition? 

 

 Yet your TEAM needs a special tournament to prove their accomplishments.

 

 

Talk about throwing a bunch of kids under the bus...wow! Collegiate athletics is classed based on MONEY. If a school wants to put more money into their athletic programs they are in a higher class. It isn't classed based on perceived ability.of an athlete. There are many DII, DIII, NAIA kids that routinely defeat DI kids...heck I even beat some DI kids as a primarily backup at a DII school.

 

You show quite a bit of arrogance when you say kids choose a school based on what their perceived ability is.

For the millionth time teams and individuals are different.  Teams need 14 guys to be good, you need one individual.  My team is at such a disadvantage that it would have been very difficult to place or make it to a one class team state.

Individuals do not need a special tournament to prove their accomplishments, because they all ready are proving their accomplishments in a fair one on one match.  There is no need for a special tournament because individually no one person is at a disadvantage.

 

This second part is not arrogance, or throwing anyone under the bus, its simply the truth.  You really mean to tell me that you think that perceived ability has nothing to do with where kids go to college?  Seriously?  There are plenty of great athletes that participate in below D1 athletics but perceived ability has a lot to do with where kids go to school.  On football signing day a few weeks back I don't exactly recall the 4 and 5 star recruits lining up to go to DII and III schools, they go D1 for a reason.

 

Also you state they class based on money, and that may be the case, but why would you spend the money have D1 programs if your not bringing in the top kids. When IPFW went D1 you mean to tell me that they didn't expect to bring in a higher quality of athlete?   Your only arguing for the sake of arguing if you can't admit that kids that go D1 are at least perceived to be better athletes.

 

If there is no difference in the perceived ability of the athletes then why are D1 sports billion dollar industries, and  anything below that is lucky to have its championships air on espn360?

 

So in reality while the classifications for college sports may be based on money, in reality they are based on ability to, your only fooling yourself if you cannot admit that.

[ENoblewrestling]

Anecdotal fallacy again.  The data shows that numbers matter, they are an advantage.  You can try to cloud the issue all you want (There are a million advantages.....) but it doesn't change the fact that numbers matter.

Im not saying that numbers do not matter.  Are you trying to say that location to a large city is not an ADVANTAGE.  

[Y2CJ41]

For the millionth time teams and individuals are different.  Teams need 14 guys to be good, you need one individual.  My team is at such a disadvantage that it would have been very difficult to place or make it to a one class team state.

 

Individuals do not need a special tournament to prove their accomplishments, because they all ready are proving their accomplishments in a fair one on one match.  There is no need for a special tournament because individually no one person is at a disadvantage.

So it is extremely difficult to qualify for a one class team tournament...and it is so easy to do it as in individual...is that what you are trying to say?

 

How is it equal when 1.7% of 1A varsity wrestlers make it to state and 11.6% of 3A varsity wrestlers make it to state?

 

Southmont, Elwood, Lebanon all made it to a single class state...just like you had a single class individual state qualifier. Maybe your team isn't doing the same things as those teams were.

 

This second part is not arrogance, or throwing anyone under the bus, its simply the truth.  You really mean to tell me that you think that perceived ability has nothing to do with where kids go to college?  Seriously?  There are plenty of great athletes that participate in below D1 athletics but perceived ability has a lot to do with where kids go to school.  On football signing day a few weeks back I don't exactly recall the 4 and 5 star recruits lining up to go to DII and III schools, they go D1 for a reason.

 

Also you state they class based on money, and that may be the case, but why would you spend the money have D1 programs if your not bringing in the top kids. When IPFW went D1 you mean to tell me that they didn't expect to bring in a higher quality of athlete?   Your only arguing for the sake of arguing if you can't admit that kids that go D1 are at least perceived to be better athletes.

 

If there is no difference in the perceived ability of the athletes then why are D1 sports billion dollar industries, and  anything below that is lucky to have its championships air on espn360?

 

So in reality while the classifications for college sports may be based on money, in reality they are based on ability to, your only fooling yourself if you cannot admit that.

Wrestling is different than football so that comparison is ludicrous. There are plenty of DI quality wrestlers in the lower divisions due to money, closeness to home, degree offering, etc. Are you trying to say kids like Riley Lefever, Nick Crume, DJ Smith, Brendon Kelley, etc perceived themselves as lesser wrestlers?

[bog190]

Im not saying that numbers do not matter.  Are you trying to say that location to a large city is not an ADVANTAGE.  

 

That's exactly what you are saying.  If not explain why 1A has 13% of the population and 4.5% of the placers?

[Galagore]

This is hard to answer, because I do understand that more kids mean more people at state, means more money and popularity for the sport.  I would say yes to only 8 qualifiers with 2 classes as long as there were true wrestlebacks.

 

Now we're getting somewhere...

[ENoblewrestling]

So it is extremely difficult to qualify for a one class team tournament...and it is so easy to do it as in individual...is that what you are trying to say?

 

How is it equal when 1.7% of 1A varsity wrestlers make it to state and 11.6% of 3A varsity wrestlers make it to state?

 

Southmont, Elwood, Lebanon all made it to a single class state...just like you had a single class individual state qualifier. Maybe your team isn't doing the same things as those teams were.

 

Wrestling is different than football so that comparison is ludicrous. There are plenty of DI quality wrestlers in the lower divisions due to money, closeness to home, degree offering, etc. Are you trying to say kids like Riley Lefever, Nick Crume, DJ Smith, Brendon Kelley, etc perceived themselves as lesser wrestlers?

I think I am learning something from all of this, these are both examples of anecdotal fallacy, correct Karl?

[PreparetoWin]

For the millionth time teams and individuals are different.  Teams need 14 guys to be good, you need one individual.  My team is at such a disadvantage that it would have been very difficult to place or make it to a one class team state.

Individuals do not need a special tournament to prove their accomplishments, because they all ready are proving their accomplishments in a fair one on one match.  There is no need for a special tournament because individually no one person is at a disadvantage.

 

 

So are you saying that a small school that is located 30 minutes to a school that is 3A and at least an hour from any city that would be considered large to go to club is not at a disadvantage? How is that so difficult to understand?? There are limitations that large schools will never understand.  I guess they arent working as hard as those 3A schools.  The denial of advantages is laughable and not recognizing the disadvantages is absurd. 

Edited March 2, 2015 by PreparetoWin

[ENoblewrestling]

That's exactly what you are saying.  If not explain why 1A has 13% of the population and 4.5% of the placers?

I agreed earlier that numbers make a difference, I just think that a lot of things make a difference.  There are a lot of advantages and disadvantages that come from schools of all different sizes.  I pointed out that location makes a difference as well and it was deemed to be an anecdotal fallacy.

[Y2CJ41]

I think I am learning something from all of this, these are both examples of anecdotal fallacy, correct Karl?

I'm glad you finally learned something! 

 

 

I agreed earlier that numbers make a difference, I just think that a lot of things make a difference.  There are a lot of advantages and disadvantages that come from schools of all different sizes.  I pointed out that location makes a difference as well and it was deemed to be an anecdotal fallacy.

If numbers make a difference then you should class the sport.  Just like in college athletics money makes a difference.

[pjayroza]

If numbers make a difference then you should class the sport.  Just like in college athletics money makes a difference.

 

Just playing devil's advocate here - if the numbers do make a difference why would you stop with 2 classes?  If 2 classes were granted and the numbers play out where only 15 percent of the smallest 2A schools make it - then do you keep making more classes to get to where it is about even?

[Y2CJ41]

Just playing devil's advocate here - if the numbers do make a difference why would you stop with 2 classes? If 2 classes were granted and the numbers play out where only 15 percent of the smallest 2A schools make it - then do you keep making more classes to get to where it is about even?

I wouldn't be opposed to three classes...or more. BUT in my perfect world I would want to expand slowly, such as a 15-25 year span. In all honesty the affects of a class system would be felt 10+ years after it starts and not immediately.

[KarlHungus]

I agreed earlier that numbers make a difference, I just think that a lot of things make a difference.  There are a lot of advantages and disadvantages that come from schools of all different sizes.  I pointed out that location makes a difference as well and it was deemed to be an anecdotal fallacy.

 

You are shifting the goalposts with the highlighted statement.  It is yet another logical fallacy.  The point being debated is whether individuals at schools with higher enrollments have an advantage.  The data clearly shows they do.  State high school athletic associations for decades have classed high school sports for that reason and that reason alone.  

[Ahawkeye]

My turn! My turn!!!!!!

14 wrestlers on one team, 6 wrestlers on another, will the team with 14 win? Yes.

Of the 6 wrestlers on the full squad, do they weigh more than the squad with only 6 guys? Are they given an extra point in the match because the other kid only has 5 buddies on his side? No.

 

This is wrestling not patty cakes. I haven’t read all of these posts but come on guys! Should they class folk style state, Greco state, or freestyle state? What about Fargo should they class that for the small states?   

Each kid weighs the same as his opponent there is NO ADVANTAGE!

[Y2CJ41]

My turn! My turn!!!!!!

14 wrestlers on one team, 6 wrestlers on another, will the team with 14 win? Yes.

Of the 6 wrestlers on the full squad, do they weigh more than the squad with only 6 guys? Are they given an extra point in the match because the other kid only has 5 buddies on his side? No.

 

This is wrestling not patty cakes. I haven’t read all of these posts but come on guys! Should they class folk style state, Greco state, or freestyle state? What about Fargo should they class that for the small states?

Each kid weighs the same as his opponent there is NO ADVANTAGE!

Ahhh yes another oldie but goodie.

[Fan4life]

So let's take the most talked about weight class at state that was STACKED anyone could win it.  You had a 2A win it, a 1A runner up, and a 3A take 3rd.  The 1A did something in school history by making it under the lights on Saturday night, that is something to be extremely proud of. This was anyone's to win and it came down to a 1 and 2 A school in the finals.  With class wrestling what are you taking away from those kids that busted their butts that day to make it there.  In your class wrestling the top 3 would be champions and never had wrestled each other.  So how do you know who really is the best then??

[KarlHungus]

My turn! My turn!!!!!!

14 wrestlers on one team, 6 wrestlers on another, will the team with 14 win? Yes.

Of the 6 wrestlers on the full squad, do they weigh more than the squad with only 6 guys? Are they given an extra point in the match because the other kid only has 5 buddies on his side? No.

 

This is wrestling not patty cakes. I haven’t read all of these posts but come on guys! Should they class folk style state, Greco state, or freestyle state? What about Fargo should they class that for the small states?   

Each kid weighs the same as his opponent there is NO ADVANTAGE!

 

Not true....the data shows that kids entering the tournament from larger schools have significant advantages.

[nopinhere]

So let's take the most talked about weight class at state that was STACKED anyone could win it.  You had a 2A win it, a 1A runner up, and a 3A take 3rd.  The 1A did something in school history by making it under the lights on Saturday night, that is something to be extremely proud of. This was anyone's to win and it came down to a 1 and 2 A school in the finals.  With class wrestling what are you taking away from those kids that busted their butts that day to make it there.  In your class wrestling the top 3 would be champions and never had wrestled each other.  So how do you know who really is the best then??

I totally agree

[SooperBod]

Quick who won 3A state in football 2A in baseball or 1A in basketball? Unless you are in that class or that conference you probably don't know or care. Indiana had something beautiful once with the basketball tourney and now, the average fan doesn't care. When a Matt Hurford or an Abe Hall wins state it is in my opinion more special. Everyone loves the underdog. Most fans would cheer for that small school over a traditional power like a Cathedral, Yorktown, or Penn any day. Plus do you really think most kids that take 7th or 8th in state wouldn't believe they would have won state at a lower class?

[KarlHungus]

Quick who won 3A state in football 2A in baseball or 1A in basketball? Unless you are in that class or that conference you probably don't know or care. Indiana had something beautiful once with the basketball tourney and now, the average fan doesn't care. When a Matt Hurford or an Abe Hall wins state it is in my opinion more special. Everyone loves the underdog. Most fans would cheer for that small school over a traditional power like a Cathedral, Yorktown, or Penn any day. Plus do you really think most kids that take 7th or 8th in state wouldn't believe they would have won state at a lower class?

 

If the purpose of high school sports was to entertain the average fan, you would get no argument from me.  I just don't think that is the purpose of HS sports.

[fearless fly]

Why most logical based off of population?  It then becomes a huge  issue based off of the type of population that makes up the school.

 

If population alone was the main factor, then our largest schools would dominate.  There are many, many large schools that are very bad at wrestling.  Population may be a factor, but in my opinion the population make up is more of a factor...

AJ, these large schools you speak of that are very bad at wrestling.... how can this be ?

[Galagore]

Quick who won 3A state in football 2A in baseball or 1A in basketball? Unless you are in that class or that conference you probably don't know or care. Indiana had something beautiful once with the basketball tourney and now, the average fan doesn't care. When a Matt Hurford or an Abe Hall wins state it is in my opinion more special. Everyone loves the underdog. Most fans would cheer for that small school over a traditional power like a Cathedral, Yorktown, or Penn any day. Plus do you really think most kids that take 7th or 8th in state wouldn't believe they would have won state at a lower class?

 

I highly doubt anyone who doesn't follow wrestling (or had a champ/runner up from his/her school) has any clue who won any of our 14 weight class tournaments or who won the overall team title a couple Saturdays ago, even though there was only one of each.

Edited March 3, 2015 by Galagore

[Bash513]

If the purpose of high school sports was to entertain the average fan, you would get no argument from me.  I just don't think that is the purpose of HS sports.

This is the only argument against class wrestling.  There is some nominal amount of entertainment value lost because there are some matches that we simply will not get to see materialize.  We will lose a lot of the underdog and feel good stories of small school guy beating big school guy.

I don't think that is enough of a reason to keep it as an individual tournament when there are clearly other advantages to classing.

[fearless fly]

This is the only argument against class wrestling.  There is some nominal amount of entertainment value lost because there are some matches that we simply will not get to see materialize.  We will lose a lot of the underdog and feel good stories of small school guy beating big school guy.

I don't think that is enough of a reason to keep it as an individual tournament when there are clearly other advantages to classing.

.the ONLY argument ... hilarious !