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formerchamp

true second

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It would be interesting to see how some of the 3rd place guys would fare against the runner up assuming they both lost to the champ.

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How would that work?  Would you only wrestle for true second if the 3rd place finisher had not already lost to the runner up in the final?  The Kemper example is a good one.  But would would it accomplish if you had a true 2nd with Konrath - Hildebrandt or Lee - James, for example?  Would it be a true 2nd if they were 1-1 against each other?

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How would that work? Would you only wrestle for true second if the 3rd place finisher had not already lost to the runner up in the final?

Yes, that is how a true second works. It usually only employed when you need to determine the top two individuals for the purpose of qualifying for a certain competition or team.

I've rarely seen it used when determining just who is 2nd place in a tournament.

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There should definitely be wrestle backs and true second. I for one wouldn't mind the extra time or extra money for a more expensive ticket. It is hard for some of these kids like Kemper, James, Koontz, Bailey, and B. Lee (at SS) to watch a wrestler they have beaten multiple times step up higher on the podium simply because of a bad draw or one bad match (or injury). No discredit to the other guys who placed ahead of them, but it was very obvious in some of the placings at SS and State that wrestle backs and true second matches should have taken place. It is very heartbreaking for kids who know and have proven they are better than kids placing before them, to watch matches they should be participating in for a place. I also think the brackets should not have the two and sometimes three best kids on the same side of the bracket.

 

Will this ever change? Wrestle backs, true second, and brackets not just being drawn (putting best two kids on the same side of the bracket)

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There should definitely be wrestle backs and true second. I for one wouldn't mind the extra time or extra money for a more expensive ticket. It is hard for some of these kids like Kemper, James, Koontz, Bailey, and B. Lee (at SS) to watch a wrestler they have beaten multiple times step up higher on the podium simply because of a bad draw or one bad match (or injury). No discredit to the other guys who placed ahead of them, but it was very obvious in some of the placings at SS and State that wrestle backs and true second matches should have taken place. It is very heartbreaking for kids who know and have proven they are better than kids placing before them, to watch matches they should be participating in for a place. I also think the brackets should not have the two and sometimes three best kids on the same side of the bracket.

Will this ever change? Wrestle backs, true second, and brackets not just being drawn (putting best two kids on the same side of the bracket)

True Second in high school is completely useless. That's how you want the state finals to end? Watching the 2nd and 3rd place match?

 

Full wrestle backs im all in for just like in Illinois but never true second.

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Stupid idea. The only places where it might make sense is regional or semi-state.

How much worse could the state runner up feel? "Hey, you just lost the championship. Now get ready to lose again." You'd have to keep all sharp objects and ledges away from these kids.

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Let me give you a historical perspective on how unfair "true placings." can be.

 

The ISHAA tournament in the 70's and 80's (and I don't know how much farther back)  used to make the loser of the semi-finals matches go immediately into a consolation round against the quarter final losers to the two wrestlers who made it into the championship bout. The winners of that match wrestled for 3rd/4th  while the two losers DID NOT PLACE because only the top 4 wrestlers got medals.  

 

So if you lost a hard fought and emotionally charged match to go to the finals, you had to immediately come back to wrestle a kid who had been resting since that morning and is now psyched up to get a chance to place.

 

It was a totally unjust system that myself and other coaches lobbied the IHSAA hard for several years to get changed.

 

History does not have to repeat itself.

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Boy I never thought I would see a comment about how it was done in 1982. I placed second in my semi state at Ft Wayne so I came to Market Square Arena and wrestled Friday night and won 3-2 over Dean Smaltz from Roncali. The 4 Semi State champs didn't have to wrestle until Sat morning so their was 12 guys total in each weight class. I then wrestled Curt Cinnimen (sp)from Hobart and go into over time and I win on criteria. So I go into the Semi Finals to meet the eventual champion David Abbot from Blackford. I lose that match 9-3 so as a junior I look at my coach and go okay not bad I will place in the top 4 and could possibly place 3rd as I wrestled Dave Petruzzi from Carmel before and lost 8-7 at the conference so I knew I had a chance to get 3rd. So my coach looks at me and says hey sorry to tell you this but you have to win another match just to get into the 3rd and 4th place match. He goes on to say if you lose you get nothing. I'm like what I just got to the final 4. At that point I was 2-1 and now I have to wrestle a guy that's been resting since 10 am and I have had 3 matches one Friday night and one overtime win in the morning and then the eventual champ in the afternoon. So I lose that conso match 3-2 and the guy I wrestle comes to me at the  conso 0-1 and I'm 2-1 and I go home with nothing. To this day I can't believe they tried that system and the guy that beat me lost the next match and places 4th. so he goes 1-2 for the state tourney and places. I would go home 2-2 and nothing. I mean it was a nightmare.

.

Edited by Ironbear

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True second at the finals would be a waste. Every wrestler's dream is to win the championship. If they get to that match and lose they won't care about wrestling another match. Did you see Sawyer Miller's face on the podium? He'd lost the goal he'd chased since he was little. If he had to wrestle again he wouldn't have had his heart in the match. I don't think you'd end up with a true second because of those kinds of emotions.

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Why do we care about true second, when the system is broke? Until we get wrestlebacks at semistate and change our system at state, we will have to realize the CHAMP is #1 and the rest werent #1. We all know there are plenty of kids watching from the stands that have beaten and would the majority of the time beat some on the podium. They either had a horrible ticket round or a horrible Friday night. It is what it is. One guy wins, the rest dont.

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True second is pointless and a non factor if the kids are properly seeded. The committee that is the IHSAA needs to be wise and listen to counsel. Counsel being the guys that have an unbelievable amount of results and experience to list the rankings.

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The only time a true second makes any sense is if it is for qualifying for the next tournament.

 

We just need a true 4 at semi-state. The rest of the broken garbage I can live with.

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