IHSWCA 2015 Middle School State

[BLTN]

After spending all day in New Castle yesterday for what was a great day of wrestling, I wanted to post a few thoughts. Overall a very good tournament but as a parent there were a few things that bothered me.

 

1) Why state that your weigh-ins would close 2-12-15 when they really closed on 2-14-15. Not what the flyer says and not what's listed on the website. In fact, somewhere it was listed weigh-ins would close Thursday 2-11-15, which was clearly a misprint.

2) In the past, this event was seeded using a wrestlers Trackwrestling profile ranking. This was clearly not done.

3) When I registered my wrestler I read the flyer regarding the criteria for determining a Team Champion, the flyer stated the Champion would be determined by using only the top 6 placers in each weight class earning points for their school. It appears that changed somewhere along the way.

4) A wrestler was overweight by .1, left the room and was allowed to weigh-in again, this time making weight. I don't care but this did happen.

 

I hate to sound so negative about a really good tournament but I think a lot of this could be avoided with better communication.

 

1) I don't care when you close registration, just state it clearly, ahead of time and don't change it.

2) If you're going to blind draw the brackets, ok, just let us know. 

3) I don't care how you determine a Team Champion but once you decide on a criteria don't change it. In my opinion, have it mirror how the IHSAA now determines the High School Team State Champion.

4) There needs to be clearly defined rules for weigh-in procedures. This way everybody's aware of the guidelines ahead of time and they're not open to interpretation.

 

Aside from my above comments, I want to say thanks to the IHSWCA for running this tournament. The future of Indiana wrestling looks very bright after what I saw yesterday!

 

[Coach Peck]

  I thought that this year's Middle School State Tournament was the best one we have ever had in terms of the mechanism.  That does not mean there were not problems.  I am not sure that I have ever been to a tournament where there was not some issue.  I was thrilled that I did not have to have anyone escorted out, or threaten anyone with a ride to our jail if they did not leave or settle down.  That was a first.  We had only minor damage to our facility due mostly to parents who think it is just fine to let their kids run wild, or let them go ballistic when they lose. 

 

A few thoughts:

 

- there was a problem with the registration time. There was a typo that was discovered right at the last minute and it made no sense to make a big deal out of it at that point because it was a typo that hurt no one.  If someone thought the dealine was Wednesday (eventhough Wednesday was not the 12th) and they registered they were in the tournament and if someone waited until Thursdaay because they thought registration ended on Thursday then they were in the tournament.  As for the registration being strung out until Saturday that was a problem in communication with the person who set the tournament up.  Again it made no difference and it kept no one out of the tournament that wanted in.  I think there were very few peole that registered between Thursday evening and Saturday evening anyway. 

 

- The criteria for determining the "Team Champion" is clearly stated on our Flier (which is on our website) and it says,

 

 "SCORING: Team scoring will be based on points awarded to the highest place finisher, from a Middle School team, in each weight class. All-Star teams (or combined teams) will not be permitted in the team portion of the competition. If there is a challenge it is the team’s responsibility to prove eligibility.  

 

It says nothing about the top six placers, and I know that statement has appeared in our Flier for several years.  I do not think you read the whole flier when you registered your wrestler.

 

I think the way we determine a "Team Champion" is just fine.  There is no really fair way to do it.  The IHSAA has the advantage of limiting each team to one entrant per weight class....we do not.  The only consideration I could see would be eliminating the Team competition altogether.

 

-  I think there were two wrestlers who were allowed to go into the weigh-in room a 2nd time.  In both cases, for whatever reason, on their first attempt they were not allowed to weigh-in on any of the other scales which is what we have allowed in the past, which is common practice at tournaments, and which every other wrestler who was overweight on the scale he/she was on, was allowed to do.  It was the right thing to do, and whether you felt it was fair, or not, does not matter because I am the guy who has to make that decision and I felt it was the fair and right thing to do.  The only way that would not have happened is if it would have been one of my own wrestlers and then I would have told them too bad because you know you should ask for a challenge.

 

I would say that we do have clearly defined rules for weigh-in, and if people should be aware of them.  Maybe coaches need to educate their wrestlers and parents on how a weigh-in works.  We make it very clear that they weigh-in wearing a singlet and shoes (in writing on our website) yet I bet between emails and questions Sunday morning over 100 people ask, "me what do they weign-in in?"  We make it clear that each wrestler gets a 2 pound allowance for singlet and shoes and if they are over they are out of the tournament (and absolutely no one who is at or under their actual weight class would be over once they put on their singlet and shoes) yet when their wrestler is over they are upset about them being out.  Maybe choosing the right weight class would be the thing to do.   I could have poketed $175 Sunday if I would have taken the three offers that were made to me to let wrestlers move up in weight...it is crazy!!! 

 

I will say this....I will tighten the rules for weigh-ins next year and make it clear (with signage and in our information) that a wrestler may ask to weigh-in on another scale, but once a wrestler leaves the weigh-in room that is it for them.

 

That is about enough.

 

 

 

Edited February 16, 2015 by Coach Peck

[Flash Attakk]

Very well run tournament.

 

As far as team scores, I think if scoring started in the round of 8 or 16 it would help equalize weight classes and minimize the random draw effect. Either way glad to be apart of a great middle school tournament and hope to continue to compete for years to come.

[Coach Peck]

Starting scoring at a certain round might be something to consider.

[Mattyb]

I liked last years scoring system. Where as a smaller community or a team with less entries would have a punchers chance (scoring top six placers only).

 

For many programs it is a difficult thing to get your whole line up to buy usa cards, fork over a 35 dollar entry fee, pay for gas and food, maybe hotel, and spectator fees.

For us die hards, this is not an issue. But....... For many it's a hard sale. So then it comes down to a numbers game. If teams bring one or two decent kids at each weight they are going to win. But maybe.... If a team bring a ton of kids, then they may derserve to win. Because that is a feat in itself.

With all of this said, we had a blast. Nice to see a lot of good folks!

Edited February 16, 2015 by Mattyb

[BLTN]

I appreciate the reply and thought it was a very good tournament as well. It's not easy when there are approximately 600 wrestlers to get weighed-in and wrestling in around 1 1/2 hours. I agree with you most tournaments I've been to have issues, some large and some small. What bothered me were more communication related.

 

Registration - I understand things can happen. No big deal, just a little confusing.

Brackets - Like I stated above, I don't care if there done by a blind draw. I just would have liked to know about it ahead of time since they were seeded in the past.

Team Champions - I don't think that's the same criteria as last year based on what I saw in another post but no problem. If you want to win it you need to bring a lot of kids and they need to be spread out over the weight classes. It is similar to the IHSAA though, in that your only awarding points to the highest place finisher in that weight class.

Weigh-ins - I didn't have a problem with it but from what I read it wasn't clearly defined in the procedures listed on the flyer or website

 

Thanks!

[RASSLER4LIFE]

The scoring seems no different than the high school sectional format, there is no improvision for a team that forfeits several weight classes. We can't punish a school for filling more weight classes than the next and we are a small school that had 6 place in the top 7.

[sslaymon]

I thought it was a good tournament. A lot of good wrestling on the day. Glad to see some smaller schools start bringing out more wrestlers. A good experience for them. 

 

- Weigh-in situation, it always happens. Someone will find a way to complain about anything. It doesn't bother me, as anyone who has hosted weigh-ins knows things happen and people complain. One of my wrestlers got a valuable learning experience. I don't know if I'd call it valuable, but he got a $35 education really quick after that mishap. He went to weigh-in without talking to me first and without checking his weight. He missed by .1 and couldn't wrestle. He'll get over it and hopefully he'll never let it happen again. 

 

-Team scoring, maybe the IHSWCA can set a class system up like ISWA. Large team vs small team and only count the highest place from each school in each weight? But that could hurt a team with 3 really good kids on 1 weight class. Is there a better way to score for teams, yes, but do I have time to sit down and propose it, no. Maybe just let trackwrestling handle scoring, and remove academy teams from that list at the end? Maybe the IHSWCA will ask input on how to score it from coaches to get a better perspective for future scoring. 

 

- As for registration, I don't think it really mattered to much. What difference is there leaving it open from Thursday night to Saturday night? IHSWCA made a few more dollars, and it's not like they set brackets up and messed them up for not closing early. They built them upon weigh-ins. I know some parents will wait until last minute to see where Johnny Champ is signed up and try to dodge him, but with a tournament of this caliber it's going to be a tough bracket no matter what. 

 

- And as for seeding, trackwrestling can't be used anymore as it allows parents to clear there wrestlers history now. Some parents have cleared them and what's to say a former 5x ISWA state champ clears theirs and last years IHSWCA champ didn't? They could still get paired up first round. No good way to set brackets by seeding middle school wrestlers with little known history. I'm good with blind draw, let the best wrestler prevail. 

 

Only complaint I have, similar to Rex's complaint, I just wish people would be a little more considerate of themselves and the school providing the tournament. How hard is it to do a little cleaning up after themselves? This saves the time of many others that have already worked hard during the day. They don't want to clean up after you when they've been running the tournament for you and your children to wrestle at all day already. Please be kind of enough to take 4 minutes and clean it up. 

 

Thanks for another great tournament IHSWCA. 

Edited February 17, 2015 by sslaymon

[DLane]

I agree with going away from trackwrestling seeding. People can delete stuff and can make thier track profile way better by attending tons of ISWA open events. Where some national events are not using them.

 

For example: (I know these are on track now, but just using as exmaple)

Tulsa nationals placer, Dixie national champ (just say track wasn't used for those tournaments)

Flo national placer. This kid is wrestling way better comp then a kid who attending and winning....3-6 ISWA Folksyle Opens (Track was used for all of these)

Edited February 17, 2015 by DLane

[MattM]

To find something halfway far for seeding it would seems the easiest way would be to just go by the previous years placement. Yeah, 8th graders tend to dominate the top spots of most weight classes, but a few 6th and 7th graders usually make it into the lower placements.  Obviously it will be hard to get it perfect since some stud kids don't attend until their 8th grade year.  But at least its provides a decent starting point for seperation, plus promotes a few more guys to attend in 7th grade in order to help their draw as 8th graders.

[Coach Peck]

Trackwrestling is a rgeat vehicle, but for seeding it is crazy sometimes.  At least 2-3 times each year someone comes up complaining that a High School kis is wrestling in the event and they show me his profile.  It is always a High School kid, but he is from some other state and not in our tournament.  It can become confusing to those who have not been exposed to it very much.  For the most part I still think if you are good enough you will get to where you ought to be by wrestling it out.

[Mattyb]

Maybe this could be the seeding criteria:

 

1. Returning middle school state champ

2. Returning middle school state placer

3. ISWA folkstyle schoolboy state champ

4. ISWA folkstyle schoolboy top 4 placer

5. ISWA folkstyle novice state champ

6. ISWA folkstyle novice top 4 placer

 

If you have none of these you go unseeded. From being there the last three years, I think this would give us fair brackets.

 

Thoughts?????

Edited February 18, 2015 by Mattyb

[MattM]

My only though is that when you are looking at ISWA as a criteria I would say a schoolboy or cadet level champ or placer would hold more weight at a MS level event than someone with a good Intermediate or Novice showing. In my view going up an age groups will affect even some better wrestlers and that is worth noting when looking at previous results for seperation criteria. As I've mentioned before with the ISWA freestyle or greco separation criteria I would like to see more emphasis placed on those who have a previous track record at the age group being competed in over those who have had success in a younger group.

[Mattyb]

My only though is that when you are looking at ISWA as a criteria I would say a schoolboy or cadet level champ or placer would hold more weight at a MS level event than someone with a good Intermediate or Novice showing. In my view going up an age groups will affect even some better wrestlers and that is worth noting when looking at previous results for seperation criteria. As I've mentioned before with the ISWA freestyle or greco separation criteria I would like to see more emphasis placed on those who have a previous track record at the age group being competed in over those who have had success in a younger group.

Revised above. Did not include cadet. 2nd year Cadets are not typical for this tournament. Maybe just a couple entered into this years tournament.  

[Brey]

My two cents on this topic as I fielded a lot of questions on Sunday about this situation. I agree with Mattyb on this separation criteria. Bottom line cream rises to top but top two place winners wrestling first round is not good. (I.e 95lb weight) those two both placed in last years tournament and should not have wrestled first round. 75lb had two ISWA state champs wrestling first round in which loser wrestled all the way back to true second as well. I think if we weight age divisions in criteria it muddies the water a little. At least separate based on Mattyb criteria so no first round match ups. Track seeding is not a good tool as of now because you can alter your kids results. I am sure one day soon it will be a good tool to separate but just not now. As I said earlier cream rises to the top eventually you just might have to wrestle 14 matches to do so. Overall great tournament with great competition.

Bryan Bailey

Indiana Outlaws

Edited February 18, 2015 by Brey

[Mattyb]

My two cents on this topic as I fielded a lot of questions on Sunday about this situation. I agree with Mattyb on this separation criteria. Bottom line cream rises to top but top two place winners wrestling first round is not good. (I.e 95lb weight) those two both place in last years tournament and should not have wrestled first round. 75lb had two ISWA state champs wrestling first round in which loser wrestled all the way back to true second as well. I think if we weight age divisions in criteria it muddies the water a little. At least separate based on Mattyb criteria so no first round match ups. Track seeding is not a good tool as of now because you can alter your kids results. I am sure one day soon it will be a good tool to separate but just not now. As I said earlier cream rises to the top eventually you just might have to wrestle 14 matches to do so. Overall great tournament with great competition.

Bryan Bailey

Indiana Outlaws

To add to that. It becomes a safety issue. We had studs meet the first round. Some of the losers in those matches wrestled back for true second. That gave them 10 or 11 matches on the day. That would have been prevented if seeding was used.

 

With all of this said, Coach Peck we do appreciate what you do. Please do not take this as bashing the tournament. It is great. Your tournament has provided my family great joy that we wont soon forget. Just throwing out ideas on a message board.

Edited February 18, 2015 by Mattyb

[Coach Peck]

No offense taken to any of this.  I like to hear feedback and I really feel everyone that has commented so far has done it in a positive manner, and with the best of intentions.  We can always do better.  One of the reasons the tournament has improved over the years is because we have noticed things that need to be improved, and because people have made suggestions for improvement.

[ColtsCoach]

I think seeding at this tournament would be great, but I also believe it would be nearly impossible to see that many wrestlers who have very little head to head or common opponents.  It would be very hard to get accurate seedings and you still run a high potential of top notch kids seeing each other very early in the tournament.  My opinion is that we don't need to put even more work on the crew that must not sleep for three days to put this thing on.  However, I would like to see this tournament have brackets with mat and match numbers like I see at other tournaments around the state to cut back on confusion.  I don't know if it is possible to do this with so many matches in a day but it is very difficult to keep up with where your kids are at only being able to see 4 matches out and scrolling through ten mats at a time.

 

Thanks for the hard work guys

[Sig40]

I think Mattyb and brey are right on the money with the seeding.  It would not be that stressful to do it correctly since you have to wrestle the weight you signed up for.  All you would have to do is close the sign ups Saturday afternoon and you will have that entire day to do the seeding.  Also there is an option through track where parents can state if their kid has met any seeding criteria when signing them up.  With all this information and time staff can post brackets the night before.  If a kid misses weight then he is out and his oppent gets a bye.