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How would class wrestling work in Indiana?


decbell1

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As we have said before, Track and X-country both have strong support for classing amongst their coaches.  The award classed all state awards in cross country and classed coach of the year awards.

 

No coach in their right mind would tell their kid that the system is screwing them over.  No one has suggested you tell your kids they are getting screwed over.  Bringing up a statement like that is silly attempt to appeal to emotions.  

 

The fact of the matter is that the two kids you speak of would have had a greater chance to qualify at a bigger school, if that bigger school had a) more coaches, B) better facilities, c) better practice partners, d) a tougher schedule, e) less pressure to compete in multiple sports, etc, etc, etc.  Assuming of course, that both put in the same amount of work at both schools.

I don't necessarily agree that those two kids would have a greater chance to qualify at a bigger school.  A bigger school with those advantages more than likely also has a MUCH more difficult path for a wrestler to even make varsity.  A tough room with stiff competition may make a wrestler better, but by no means makes the path easier.  That's one of the reasons big schools have more qualifiers than smaller schools, because in general a big school varsity wrestler has had to defeat numerous quality wrestlers to even make varsity.  We see the state number breakdown by potential classes, but those are comparing varsity numbers only which doesn't tell the whole story.   Comparing all wrestlers including JV would show a much clearer picture.  If a wrestler has already beaten 4 wrestlers to just make varsity, he should have a better chance to advance than a wrestler who didn't have as hard of a path to a varsity spot.  A small school wrestler shouldn't be compared to his big school wrestler counterpart, he should be compared to all of the wrestlers at that weight from that big school

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I don't necessarily agree that those two kids would have a greater chance to qualify at a bigger school.  A bigger school with those advantages more than likely also has a MUCH more difficult path for a wrestler to even make varsity.  A tough room with stiff competition may make a wrestler better, but by no means makes the path easier.  That's one of the reasons big schools have more qualifiers than smaller schools, because in general a big school varsity wrestler has had to defeat numerous quality wrestlers to even make varsity.  We see the state number breakdown by potential classes, but those are comparing varsity numbers only which doesn't tell the whole story.   Comparing all wrestlers including JV would show a much clearer picture.  If a wrestler has already beaten 4 wrestlers to just make varsity, he should have a better chance to advance than a wrestler who didn't have as hard of a path to a varsity spot.  A small school wrestler shouldn't be compared to his big school wrestler counterpart, he should be compared to all of the wrestlers at that weight from that big school

 

If they can qualify for semi state from a small school, I like their chances to make varsity for most programs.

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I don't believe that the school size is killing the smaller schools.  I believe that the advent of single sport specialization, and the option of doing other activities is what is killing the smaller school programs.  Let's say Hoosiertucky HS has a potential of 150 male students across all grade levels

 

  • 1980s
    • 15 play basketball
    • 20 on the wrestling team
    • 115 of them have a job, aren't athletes, or have no interest in wrestling
  • 2014
    • 15 play basketball
    • 8 on the wrestling team
    • 15 do winter "lifting" for football
    • 10 are doing conditioning for spring baseball or track
    • 5 of them play travel soccer year round
    • 97 of them have a job, aren't athletes, or have no interest in wrestling

In my opinion, adding a classed tournament for the smaller schools isn't going to do much getting those other 97 kids out for wrestling.  Maybe you'll draw some of the 15 that are lifting, but then aren't you really hurting your small school football team?  Rewarding current regional-level quality wrestlers with a trip to "state" is not the answer.  Our society has brainwashed parents into believing that the only way to have success at a sport is to specialize in it and do it year-round, and that they only way their athlete will enjoy a sport is if they are not only competing and being part of the team, but reaching some mythical "elite" level.  Not everybody is a college athlete.  Maybe it's the crusty old fart mentality, but many student athletes don't seem to take pride in working harder than their peers -- the cell phone society is too comfortable compared to sweating 5 days a week after school and "only making sectionals".

 

Just random thoughts, I'm not totally opposed to a 2-class system, but I also do not believe it will increase the numbers across the board at smaller schools.  Good coaching and a "team first" mentality will continue to thrive at a handful of schools.  Wrestlers at small schools have a host of options available to them in offseason wrestling if they want to specialize and make the run at a high finish.

 

I just pulled those numbers out of the air -- I'd love to hear some real-world numbers from a small school coach.  What are all the kids doing during winter sports?  How many of the non-wrestlers do you think you could pull onto the team if, say, you built the program such that you had 4-5 "small state" qualifiers every year?

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What would be the argument for classes in track and in cross country?  Bigger schools get to practice on better surfaces?  Proximity to Dick's Sporting Goods allows larger schools a better opportunity to purchase top of the line track shoes.  What disadvantages are faced by the small school kids in track or CC?

 

Ill bet he was kicking himself in the butt for having a quitters mentality when you guys beat the adversity holding your athletes back and won two state titles in the last five years.

 

Numbers for one thing. Bigger programs have many quality runners that focus on one or two events. Smaller ones have no chance to win meets unless there runners do 3 or 4 events. Big difference, takes a lot out of a kid doing that many events. Also training partners just like wrestling. It's much easier to improve when you have faster and better runners to train with, makes everyone better. Not to mention if someone is off or injured, that can devastate a smaller team. Bigger programs just reload with another runner. There have been many times in CC were top runners don't even compete in sectionals because the team will still advance due to depth. And as several coaches have stated to me, many individual sports take more athletes than basketball, so why not class them all.

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So assuming our tournament can handle twice as many state qualifiers.... you have now sent 224 kids to state that wouldn't normally be there. There parents will get a hotel in indy for around 130 dollars for one night. 20 dollars per ticket. Possibly have to take off work to make the event. They will spend money on fuel for their trip. (Some more than others) they will have to spend money on food at restaurants over the weekend. Now to keep all this in perspective, none of these kids are better wrestlers because they are "state qualifiers". No one in your school cares that you're a state qualifier and they aren't interested in joining your team because you qualified for state. So instead of all this money being spent to have a "state qualifier", it could be spent on wrestling camps or trips to RTCs to actually get better.

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So assuming our tournament can handle twice as many state qualifiers.... you have now sent 224 kids to state that wouldn't normally be there. There parents will get a hotel in indy for around 130 dollars for one night. 20 dollars per ticket. Possibly have to take off work to make the event. They will spend money on fuel for their trip. (Some more than others) they will have to spend money on food at restaurants over the weekend. Now to keep all this in perspective, none of these kids are better wrestlers because they are "state qualifiers". No one in your school cares that you're a state qualifier and they aren't interested in joining your team because you qualified for state. So instead of all this money being spent to have a "state qualifier", it could be spent on wrestling camps or trips to RTCs to actually get better.

 

None of this accurately describes my experience taking kids to state.  For both of our wrestlers, people were over-joyed to be making the trip.  And we had quite a hoopla from the school surrounding the trip to state.  Some (new) guys on our team in the following years remarked that they were in the room because of seeing classmates on the floor at Banker's Life.  That was a small school, so every one knew both of our qualifiers quite well.  Hopefully our experience was closer to the norm, instead of being an outlier. 

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None of this accurately describes my experience taking kids to state. For both of our wrestlers, people were over-joyed to be making the trip. And we had quite a hoopla from the school surrounding the trip to state. Some (new) guys on our team in the following years remarked that they were in the room because of seeing classmates on the floor at Banker's Life. That was a small school, so every one knew both of our qualifiers quite well. Hopefully our experience was closer to the norm, instead of being an outlier.

So do you feel if we moved to 5 classes, like some of these states that have less wrestling teams than Indiana, we could qualify 1120 kids to state every year and nearly every team in the state would see number increases from having the publicity of a state qualifier?

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So do you feel if we moved to 5 classes, like some of these states that have less wrestling teams than Indiana, we could qualify 1120 kids to state every year and nearly every team in the state would see number increases from having the publicity of a state qualifier?

No one is saying to have five classes other than you.

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So do you feel if we moved to 5 classes, like some of these states that have less wrestling teams than Indiana, we could qualify 1120 kids to state every year and nearly every team in the state would see number increases from having the publicity of a state qualifier?

 

No.

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So assuming our tournament can handle twice as many state qualifiers.... you have now sent 224 kids to state that wouldn't normally be there. There parents will get a hotel in indy for around 130 dollars for one night. 20 dollars per ticket. Possibly have to take off work to make the event. They will spend money on fuel for their trip. (Some more than others) they will have to spend money on food at restaurants over the weekend. Now to keep all this in perspective, none of these kids are better wrestlers because they are "state qualifiers". No one in your school cares that you're a state qualifier and they aren't interested in joining your team because you qualified for state. So instead of all this money being spent to have a "state qualifier", it could be spent on wrestling camps or trips to RTCs to actually get better.

So in your opinion:

A kid in today's generation can

 

A: wrestle on a small school team and finish 5th at sectional along w rest of his team and be done for year

Or

 

B: Qualify for state, accomplish a goal, gain recognition from his peers and family, and practice for two more weeks with his coaches and teammates

 

 

And you think after all that, you'll have the exact same talent level?

 

What happened to just working harder? Isn't that kid working harder?

 

Or does he not care because you don't care?

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So in your opinion:

A kid in today's generation can

 

A: wrestle on a small school team and finish 5th at sectional along w rest of his team and be done for year

Or

 

B: Qualify for state, accomplish a goal, gain recognition from his peers and family, and practice for two more weeks with his coaches and teammates

 

 

And you think after all that, you'll have the exact same talent level?

 

What happened to just working harder? Isn't that kid working harder?

 

Or does he not care because you don't care?

are you reading the words you type? So the two weeks of practice (that the kid can attend even if they don't qualify for state) with the same teammates he always practices with (which apparently are so bad they need to be separated from the good kids in the state) is much better, to you, than going to a wrestling camp put on by a college?

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you obviously have no idea how athletes at a small school work. One season ends and another begins

 

Your attitude says,"screw kids who don't want to wrestle year round, we don't need them."

 

Our argument is:"if we don't keep those kids who play other sports, the sport is not getting stronger in our state, it's weakening."

Edited by decbell1
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I have had the opportunity to coach for 25 year. I grew up and wrestled in Ohio. I think it should be classed. Two classes. I have coached at both small and large schools. I think today--to keep things interesting--kids need to have success. They need to be able to set attainable goals. I think in the long run dual meet/ team success--is what keeps kids together. A kid at a small school does not have the same chances to experience state success. With a half of a line up it is also tough to experience team success

 

I would be curious to poll all the wrestlers in Indiana to hear their preference

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And in our opinion adding more weak/mediocre wrestlers will not make the state better at wrestling...

I laugh every time I hear this.

 

If we have more kids in Indiana, wrestling more matches, our sport is in worse shape.

 

Don't you feel any responsibility to promote the sport and build up existing programs, and maybe, just maybe, start new programs??

 

The best I can tell, you guys would rather just see the bottom 40-50 programs fold so all those "bad" wrestlers don't clog up the mats

 

This sport is NOT on the way up, it's dying in a lot of areas in this state

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And in our opinion adding more weak/mediocre wrestlers will not make the state better at wrestling...just increase the amount of matches and people attending the state series.

Less participation=good for wrestling in Indiana. Makes sense.

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It's not participation as a whole... It's participation in the state series... Don't you think more people at a small school would be more encouraged by a buddy who made it to state beating the big schools compared to a kid who beat some kids from only the small schoops... You guys have yet to prove how more kids at state will make more kids who are already doing other sports or things decide that now that it is easier to make it to state they now want to wrestle...

2 bad kids wrestling doesn't make anyone better. If they want to get better they have to challenge themselves and wrestle better kids... Not kids on their level. If I curl a 50 pound dumbbell day after day it would be really hard at first because it's a challenge but 50 days in it would no longer be a chanllenge and I wouldn't get any better

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Is there any data from other states that points to an increase in participation after going to a classed system? Or does anybody with an unbiased opinion have any credible, first-hand experiences to draw from?

 

I'd just like to actually see something of substance. This thread is nothing but a bunch of hypothetical assumptions and "if this, then that" rhetoric to reinforce everyone's respective opinions, which both sides of the argument are guilty of (myself included).

Edited by B. Alan
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Many kids that don't wrestle in high school are solid to good wrestlers. Just because they don't wrestle doesn't mean they're bad, but they have football and baseball to play so why wrestle if they can't make it to a high level? You're increasing the incentive for kids like that to come out. Its not a difficult concept.

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you obviously have no idea how athletes at a small school work. One season ends and another begins

 

Your attitude says,"screw kids who don't want to wrestle year round, we don't need them."

 

Our argument is:"if we don't keep those kids who play other sports, the sport is not getting stronger in our state, it's weakening."

I really hope you're not referring to me here because I encourage kids to participate in any sports they enjoy doing. I've seen first hand over the last 15 years that a state qualifier doesn't increase the numbers in your program and it certainly doesn't increase the talent. participation awards are silly. There are 13 states that qualify over 50 percent of all the wrestlers in the state yet those states don't seem to be booming in number increases or talent. According to your analysis this is the complete opposite of your predictions.

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I really hope you're not referring to me here because I encourage kids to participate in any sports they enjoy doing. I've seen first hand over the last 15 years that a state qualifier doesn't increase the numbers in your program and it certainly doesn't increase the talent. participation awards are silly. There are 13 states that qualify over 50 percent of all the wrestlers in the state yet those states don't seem to be booming in number increases or talent. According to your analysis this is the complete opposite of your predictions.

I think he is talking about me. But I agree kids should do whatever sport they like. Which is why the ones who are good enough or devoted enough to concentrate one one sport are not likely to risk injury or loss of practice for their main sport...

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