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How would class wrestling work in Indiana?


decbell1

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I have seen no proof that classing wrestling will improve participation.  Someone show me it does without question! Coach Brobst mentioned this stigma among his kids that if you go out for wrestling then you like men (see his point no. 3). If this is true then do we need to disprove this stigma to get more participation ? 

 
 
 
Coach Brobst quote:

 

I noticed this as well. Last year, when I coached in IPS, the IPSAC tournament had 19 first round matches, whereas there were only 7 this year when I went to watch my old wrestlers compete last Friday (It's an 8-man bracket with 9 teams).  The numbers across the conference were way down though. Tech still fielded a full team, but nobody else had more than 8 registered wrestlers and only 182, 220, and 285 had more than 5 wrestlers. That's probably why they feel there should be 14 teams in this sectional, because there will only be around the same number of wrestlers as an 8-10 team field, maybe even less.

 

I also noticed numbers at the private city schools are down, Ritter, Scecina, and Chatard (not in this sectional, but still relevant) all have seen full teams from just a couple seasons ago turn into much smaller rosters. Ritter went from having just two forfeits two years ago to 7 this year and Scecina went from 3 to 8 in that two year time period. 

 

There's definitely a dip in the participation in the city, across the board. The question is: Why won't more of these kids come out and wrestle. The athletes are there in the schools, I just wonder why they won't wrestle.

 

I believe the problem is 3-fold (probably many more issues, but I want to keep this concise):

 

1. There is a large lack of youth exposure to wrestling in the city. Other than CYO (of which most of the best wrestlers end up at Cathedral), these kids aren't being exposed to our sport at an early age and believe, even when they are only 5'3" that they will go pro in the NBA because of their love of basketball. This, combined with the lack of exposure for the student body due to the fact that hardly any of the matches are at home for any of the teams (in my case, we literally didn't have mats due to the take-over process at Howe) make it a hard sell.

 

2. There's difficulty in finding coaches. Not necessarily Head Coaches, I worked as a Head Coach there for 2 years and have nothing but great things to say about my colleagues in the city. They know their stuff, but now that I work at a school outside of town with a staff of 10 coaches, I see that me and my one paid assistant who showed up every other day and my 2 volunteer coaches who could only make it a few times all season were vastly behind in the amount of knowledge we could give to our wrestlers in a 2.5 hour practice. There was no money in our budget to hire anyone else and despite posting on this site and calling every buddy I have within an hour's drive, I could get no takers to come and help. 

 

3. There seems to be a social stigma among the students I worked with at least that if you wrestled, you liked men. Even more so than with the kids outside the city. Many great athletes at Howe that helped their football team find success wouldn't come near the wrestling room because they were afraid of what their buddies would say about them.

 

I do think that there are many other reasons, but these stuck out to me.

Edited by fearless fly
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I have seen no proof that classing wrestling will improve participation.  Someone show me it does without question! Coach Brobst mentioned this stigma among his kids that if you go out for wrestling then you like men (see his point no. 3). If this is true then do we need to disprove this stigma to get more participation ? 

 
 
 
Coach Brobst quote:

 

I noticed this as well. Last year, when I coached in IPS, the IPSAC tournament had 19 first round matches, whereas there were only 7 this year when I went to watch my old wrestlers compete last Friday (It's an 8-man bracket with 9 teams).  The numbers across the conference were way down though. Tech still fielded a full team, but nobody else had more than 8 registered wrestlers and only 182, 220, and 285 had more than 5 wrestlers. That's probably why they feel there should be 14 teams in this sectional, because there will only be around the same number of wrestlers as an 8-10 team field, maybe even less.

 

I also noticed numbers at the private city schools are down, Ritter, Scecina, and Chatard (not in this sectional, but still relevant) all have seen full teams from just a couple seasons ago turn into much smaller rosters. Ritter went from having just two forfeits two years ago to 7 this year and Scecina went from 3 to 8 in that two year time period. 

 

There's definitely a dip in the participation in the city, across the board. The question is: Why won't more of these kids come out and wrestle. The athletes are there in the schools, I just wonder why they won't wrestle.

 

I believe the problem is 3-fold (probably many more issues, but I want to keep this concise):

 

1. There is a large lack of youth exposure to wrestling in the city. Other than CYO (of which most of the best wrestlers end up at Cathedral), these kids aren't being exposed to our sport at an early age and believe, even when they are only 5'3" that they will go pro in the NBA because of their love of basketball. This, combined with the lack of exposure for the student body due to the fact that hardly any of the matches are at home for any of the teams (in my case, we literally didn't have mats due to the take-over process at Howe) make it a hard sell.

 

2. There's difficulty in finding coaches. Not necessarily Head Coaches, I worked as a Head Coach there for 2 years and have nothing but great things to say about my colleagues in the city. They know their stuff, but now that I work at a school outside of town with a staff of 10 coaches, I see that me and my one paid assistant who showed up every other day and my 2 volunteer coaches who could only make it a few times all season were vastly behind in the amount of knowledge we could give to our wrestlers in a 2.5 hour practice. There was no money in our budget to hire anyone else and despite posting on this site and calling every buddy I have within an hour's drive, I could get no takers to come and help. 

 

3. There seems to be a social stigma among the students I worked with at least that if you wrestled, you liked men. Even more so than with the kids outside the city. Many great athletes at Howe that helped their football team find success wouldn't come near the wrestling room because they were afraid of what their buddies would say about them.

 

I do think that there are many other reasons, but these stuck out to me.

 

Show me evidence that class wrestling will hurt participation?

 

So because Indianapolis city schools are struggling...much like Fort Wayne, we should just keep doing what we are doing? You don't think that having kids with more advancement into regional and semi-state and even state would help those programs and their perception in the school?

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So how do you judge if these kids work hard or not for their state titles?  Do you envision kids in Ohio smoking cigs, sitting on the couch, just going out and winning state titles?

1. No one here is advocating more than 2 classes for Indiana

2. Most people are of the theory that 2 or 3 classes is best

3. If you want to poll the kids feel free to do so, I guarantee your kid would celebrate a 1A title if he won. I highly doubt he would throw it in the trash and call it a crying shame. I'm sure your school would celebrate his championship, put his picture on the way and a sign outside the city.  You may also want to poll the kids on what they want in the school cafeteria, that would be good. You may want to poll the kids on if they want an extra 5lbs for the state finals too, I'm sure they'd like that.

When you beat the Indiana State Champ you beat the Indiana State Champ. When you beat a Ohio State Champ you beat a Ohio State Champ. Repulsive! 

I am all for poling the kids in the cafeteria who are healthy, athletic, and have demonstrated Fantastic discipline in eating! That would be prudent.Maybe we should class the Olympics Ick!!! Paul would celebrate a 1a title about like a semi state title! And the school would announce him as the State Champ but he would be a State Champ. Not the same thing! Nothing good comes out of this!

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Another oldie, but goodie, keep them coming!

So you say success is going to semi-state...I get it now. In 2009, I lost three kids in the ticket round. I did not consider that a success....however you would have. That year still haunts me like no other and I still think of that every year around this time. Of course you would be celebrating it like you won the Super Bowl.

The point is,, every time this subject is belched out...we hear nothing but whining and complaining abut how hard it is to beat those horrible "Big Schools".   When in reality, it is no easier to fill a full roster in a school of 1500 kids than it is in a school of 500.   If your logic actually bore out, Ben Davis, North Central, Lawrence North, and schools of that size would blow through every state tourney unchallenged base on raw numbers in the talent pool...Oddly enough the schools that traditionally are the power players in out sport ARE the smaller schools by population...

 

Wrestling at it's core is NOT about the numbers...it's about the individuals...and the efforts of those individuals.

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Show me evidence that class wrestling will hurt participation?

 

So because Indianapolis city schools are struggling...much like Fort Wayne, we should just keep doing what we are doing? You don't think that having kids with more advancement into regional and semi-state and even state would help those programs and their perception in the school?

don't know, show me it does! We have classwrestling now and doesn't seem broken to me and I think it should stay classless so prove to me that classing it will.

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When you beat the Indiana State Champ you beat the Indiana State Champ. When you beat a Ohio State Champ you beat a Ohio State Champ. Repulsive! 

I am all for poling the kids in the cafeteria who are healthy, athletic, and have demonstrated Fantastic discipline in eating! That would be prudent.Maybe we should class the Olympics Ick!!! Paul would celebrate a 1a title about like a semi state title! And the school would announce him as the State Champ but he would be a State Champ. Not the same thing! Nothing good comes out of this!

Repulsive, yet you have to get tickets to their state finals months in advance. That is really repulsive, let me tell you. Repulsive is also them having multiple kids per weight ranked nationally. That is so repulsive, I can't believe that state. Repulsive is all their NCAA qualifiers, All-Americans, and National champions.

 

That is awesome, let's poll kids what they want in the cafeteria, why just limit it to certain kids. Bring on Chipotle and ice cream and pop! 

 

Classing the Olympics, another oldie but goodie....why not just have one weight class then? Just work harder if you are 115lbs.

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If more kids going to state will create more exposure then why not advocate to take 32 to state instead of 16 with 1 class. Doesn't this accomplish getting more kids exposure and more opportunities?

 

Classing wrestling might create an easier path for kids from small schools but it also creates a more difficult path for some kids at big schools. After looking through the "projected" results for a 2 class system I noticed several big schools that would have had only 1-2 kids make it out of sectional but those same schools qualified 4-6 to semi state. If you have a big school that is primarily a basketball/football school and they can only get 1 kid out of sectional will we see less and less numbers in their program? Wouldn't that hurt the sport of wrestling?

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It seems exposure and participation are the main arguments in support of a classed system. Am I right in declaring this? 

 

Would everyone agree that numbers in ALL sports have taken a hit in the last ten years? I have no data on this, but, based on casual observation, I'm thinking you'll find it to be true. 

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If more kids going to state will create more exposure then why not advocate to take 32 to state instead of 16 with 1 class. Doesn't this accomplish getting more kids exposure and more opportunities?

 

Classing wrestling might create an easier path for kids from small schools but it also creates a more difficult path for some kids at big schools. After looking through the "projected" results for a 2 class system I noticed several big schools that would have had only 1-2 kids make it out of sectional but those same schools qualified 4-6 to semi state. If you have a big school that is primarily a basketball/football school and they can only get 1 kid out of sectional will we see less and less numbers in their program? Wouldn't that hurt the sport of wrestling?

Of course adding 16 or even 4 more state qualifiers "help.'  Right now we get about 75% of state qualifiers from big schools or 12 per weight class. Increasing the big schools to 16 state qualifiers will help them a little. The teams getting 4 qualifiers might get 5 or 6. At the small school level they would see a bigger jump and thus help them more by classing. They would go from 4 qualifiers per class to 16, that is 4X as many. 

 

Which one would help small schools more?

The burden of proof lies with those wishing to change the status quo. Good luck presenting a major change to the IHSAA that the wrestling community does not remotely aggree on.

 

Single class supporters have all the proof they need...show up next weekend and see it.

Bobby Cox stated that the 6A class in football is one of the best things the IHSAA has done. He isn't against classing athletics.

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I keep hearing that if we have classes there will be more numbers because of more success. Let's just quit screwing around with all the bull crap. If we could have 32 classes we could crown 448 state champions a year and that is bound to benefit every school in the state. This would help the sport. Me and y2 are leading wrestling into the future.

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Im just guessing that those who want classed state champions were ones who never got to be 1? I may be wrong but why would a STATE CHAMPION even bring this up...i just asked my brother "Who was" and his response..."I was asked as a freshman why i didnt play basketball that i woukd probably be a starter. I Simply replied are we going to win a state title? How many other guys will i depend on to help win this for me? Coach: well you have no guarantees you'll win 1 wrestling either!! My brother: No but i dictate wheather i do or not and i wont feel as good if im an average player with minimal playing time so i think ill take my chances at my own glory"....

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The point is,, every time this subject is belched out...we hear nothing but whining and complaining abut how hard it is to beat those horrible "Big Schools".   When in reality, it is no easier to fill a full roster in a school of 1500 kids than it is in a school of 500.   If your logic actually bore out, Ben Davis, North Central, Lawrence North, and schools of that size would blow through every state tourney unchallenged base on raw numbers in the talent pool...Oddly enough the schools that traditionally are the power players in out sport ARE the smaller schools by population...

 

Wrestling at it's core is NOT about the numbers...it's about the individuals...and the efforts of those individuals.

 

Can you please reference me to the post that supports the claim that being classed is about how hard it is to beat the "Big Schools?"  All of the ones I have looked at state that the motivation is to improve participation. 

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The point is,, every time this subject is belched out...we hear nothing but whining and complaining abut how hard it is to beat those horrible "Big Schools". When in reality, it is no easier to fill a full roster in a school of 1500 kids than it is in a school of 500. If your logic actually bore out, Ben Davis, North Central, Lawrence North, and schools of that size would blow through every state tourney unchallenged base on raw numbers in the talent pool...Oddly enough the schools that traditionally are the power players in out sport ARE the smaller schools by population...

 

Wrestling at it's core is NOT about the numbers...it's about the individuals...and the efforts of those individuals.

Very Well Put! Edited by decbell1
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You all keep missing the point of advocating for two classes.

It's about improving the sport for as many programs as possible.

 

The program at South Adams is a perfect example of why we need classes, lol

 

 

And for those referencing the "feelings" of our state champs, who cares?

 

 

There are four thousand varsity wrestlers in the state, I couldn't care less about the self esteem of our champs lol

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I have a proposal that makes everyone happy. We could have a state championship like normal and then we can have a secondary title that any school ,no matter the size, can opt to not wrestle in the normal tournament and go to the secondary tournament. All by choice without forcing anyone. That way the guys who want the glory can have that and the guys who have a little pride can wrestle for the real title.

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I have a proposal that makes everyone happy. We could have a state championship like normal and then we can have a secondary title that any school ,no matter the size, can opt to not wrestle in the normal tournament and go to the secondary tournament. All by choice without forcing anyone. That way the guys who want the glory can have that and the guys who have a little pride can wrestle for the real title.

So you think if we split the state into two classes that there would be dozens of teams opting to move up to 2A? No way

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I keep hearing that if we have classes there will be more numbers because of more success. Let's just quit screwing around with all the bull crap. If we could have 32 classes we could crown 448 state champions a year and that is bound to benefit every school in the state. This would help the sport. Me and y2 are leading wrestling into the future.

 

Strawman argument

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14 CHAMPIONS 1 CLASS...move to another state if you want to be a group of other #1's....Best of the BEST PERIOD...work harder get better earn what you get, Its life...Hardcore yes Reality yes but sugar coating kids is what keeps them from working for what they want...good things come to the kids who put in the the Xtra work...if your coach is cutting it voice your opinions to school boards multiple other options than CLASS CHAMPIONS....read my quote at the bottom of my name its about PUTTING IN THE TIME...Success breeds Success... you can build baseball fields but if you cant get players there useless...

Edited by fanatic46041
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