KarlHungus Posted February 13, 2015 Share Posted February 13, 2015 We have actually converted many people over the years Benny Caprino Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
decbell1 Posted February 14, 2015 Author Share Posted February 14, 2015 (edited) That's how South Adams was few years ago but now we're struggling to fill a lineup. Even though we had success, no one cared enough to come out.I think it is pretty evident that the success and now lack of is connected to the caliber of coach South Adams was able to bring in. A school that small doesn't have room to just make teaching spots appear easily. Barry Humble is a wonderful coach but we all know he was there because no one else would come. He came back again this year because of it too. Now he's leaving and the lack of flexibility at SA in hiring will only hurt their program more. These are the reasons why small schools struggle. You can't just blindly say the kids need to just "try harder" Here is the saddest part: If I were to ask everyone to rank the following 3 by priority level, not everyone would have same answer: -overall success and growth of our sport -the fan experience during the state tournament -some elite wrestler from a school making sure he knows he is #1 Edited February 14, 2015 by decbell1 KarlHungus 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IU89 Posted February 14, 2015 Share Posted February 14, 2015 We have actually converted many people over the years Y2 has converted me over the years. My only concern is will the IHSAA let a small school elect to wrestle up like Mater Dei does in the IHSWCA Team State duals? They are a 1A school in size but choose to wrestle with the larger schools. Is this permitted in other classed sports? Y2CJ41 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
decbell1 Posted February 14, 2015 Author Share Posted February 14, 2015 (edited) I am pretty sure it is permitted, but I don't know of any schools that have done it. Sure sounds like Churubusco and a few others are volunteering to move up to 2A in a classed system. I wonder how many coaches concerned about beating "the best" and calling class nonsense would stay quiet and fight in the 1A tournament Edited February 14, 2015 by decbell1 IU89 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
B. Alan Posted February 14, 2015 Share Posted February 14, 2015 Y2 has converted me over the years. My only concern is will the IHSAA let a small school elect to wrestle up like Mater Dei does in the IHSWCA Team State duals? They are a 1A school in size but choose to wrestle with the larger schools. Is this permitted in other classed sports? Furthermore, will the IHSAA permit an INDIVIDUAL to wrestle up during the state series while the rest of his team is competing in a different sectional? It just gets really messy when you class an individual sport. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bog190 Posted February 14, 2015 Share Posted February 14, 2015 Furthermore, will the IHSAA permit an INDIVIDUAL to wrestle up during the state series while the rest of his team is competing in a different sectional? It just gets really messy when you class an individual sport. Yet 40 or more states can figure it out. Y2CJ41 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Y2CJ41 Posted February 14, 2015 Share Posted February 14, 2015 I know I'm late to the party here, but I don't like the idea of classing individual state, at all. Team state, love it. Individual, no. I'm sure it's been covered at some point in here (I'm not going through the entire thread), but, what happens when an elite kid from a small school is arguably, or even unquestionably, the best kid in the state? Why should he have to settle for a "small school" state title when he is the best? Yes, I agree getting more kids to qualify for state could be good for a program, and possibly for the entire state(from a numbers perspective), but why dilute what it means to be a "state qualifier" or "state placer" or "state champion." Our state tournament series is fantastic as is. Why change or take away from it? An elite kid from a small school? Ohh like say Stevan Micic.. His sophomore year he would have had Sawyer Miller and Hayden Lee in his weight class His junior year he would have had Sawyer Miller in his weight class His senior year he would have had Elliot Molloy and Cael McCormick in his weight class So you admit that it could help small school programs, but are so fascinated with having a "true" champion that you will sacrifice more kids wrestling for the one champion. Most top-notch kids get to that level because of the off-season training they do with clubs and such, so the size of school doesn't make much difference. Kids will get out what they put in, regardless of the school they are attending. I know it already goes on to certain degree, but a move like this would even further encourage high level kids to leave their small town schools and attend bigger "top class" schools in pursuit of the best competition and more distinguished honors. Classing individual state would increase numbers, somewhat, but it definitely wouldn't increase the quality of wrestling throughout our state. I understand my perspective, that of a fan and only a fan, will certainly differ from that of a coach, parent, or, most importantly, a wrestler. I also understand that my opinion holds no bearing, whatsoever, and that I probably sound like a broken record, but I'd hate to see our state go in this direction. It wouldn't encourage kids to move to bigger schools any more than it does now. If we get more kids wrestling the quality will increase, plain and simple. Also one factor you are missing is if more kid are qualifying for state or coming close(semi-state), they will also be more inclined to do more offseason things like clubs and tournaments, thus getting better and thus increasing the QUALITY. On top of that more kids at state will help their exposure for college wrestling. More kids wrestling in college is great as they are also likely to come give back to the sport after they are finished with school. I would love to have more guys with college experience helping out coaching or reffing in the state. Y2 has converted me over the years. My only concern is will the IHSAA let a small school elect to wrestle up like Mater Dei does in the IHSWCA Team State duals? They are a 1A school in size but choose to wrestle with the larger schools. Is this permitted in other classed sports? Welcome to the dark side! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thor Posted February 14, 2015 Share Posted February 14, 2015 How does increasing quantity improve quality? It's not like small schools have a stud just doing nothing in the winter. Most students are involved in other activities or work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
decbell1 Posted February 14, 2015 Author Share Posted February 14, 2015 Kids wrestling further into the season and having success wouldn't help them improve? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Y2CJ41 Posted February 14, 2015 Share Posted February 14, 2015 How does increasing quantity improve quality? It's not like small schools have a stud just doing nothing in the winter. Most students are involved in other activities or work.The same way having 2000 kids to choose from is better than having 500 to choose from. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thor Posted February 14, 2015 Share Posted February 14, 2015 I'm talking about the numbers. A lot of posts are about having more success means more people want to come out to wrestle. I'm saying that at small schools there's hardly anyone available to come out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
B. Alan Posted February 14, 2015 Share Posted February 14, 2015 So you admit that it could help small school programs, but are so fascinated with having a "true" champion that you will sacrifice more kids wrestling for the one champion. Yes. Again, I am simply a fan. As I said, my perspective will differ from that of someone more directly involved. It wouldn't encourage kids to move to bigger schools any more than it does now. Yes it would unless the IHSAA allowed kids to wrestle up individually in the sectional. If I'm the best kid in the state, it'd be a crying shame if the size of my school kept me from proving it. Also one factor you are missing is if more kid are qualifying for state or coming close(semi-state), they will also be more inclined to do more offseason things like clubs and tournaments, thus getting better and thus increasing the QUALITY. I absolutely understand what you're getting at here, and for the most part, I agree with you, but I think it would work both ways. Yes, a kid getting the chance to go deep in the tournament, and getting hungry, would promote more offseason work, which would of course be great for quality. On the other hand, a more gifted kid wrestling for a small school might not have to work hard at all to make deep runs in the tournament, which would likely deter them from putting in offseason work, thus keeping them from reaching their full potential, a potential that might've been reached had they been forced to put the time in due to wrestling better competition. On top of that more kids at state will help their exposure for college wrestling. More kids wrestling in college is great as they are also likely to come give back to the sport after they are finished with school. I would love to have more guys with college experience helping out coaching or reffing in the state. More kids at the state tournament would not mean more kids wrestling in college. Colleges aren't going to expand their programs just because Indiana has twice as many kids at the state tournament. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Y2CJ41 Posted February 14, 2015 Share Posted February 14, 2015 Yes it would unless the IHSAA allowed kids to wrestle up individually in the sectional. If I'm the best kid in the state, it'd be a crying shame if the size of my school kept me from proving it. 40+ states have these "crying shames" as you like to put it. Amazing that none of these "crying shames" are reverting back to single class wrestling. Within the last 10 years Illinois has added a class along with New York actually going from single class to two classes. I absolutely understand what you're getting at here, and for the most part, I agree with you, but I think it would work both ways. Yes, a kid getting the chance to go deep in the tournament, and getting hungry, would promote more offseason work, which would of course be great for quality. On the other hand, a more gifted kid wrestling for a small school might not have to work hard at all to make deep runs in the tournament, which would likely deter them from putting in offseason work, thus keeping them from reaching their full potential, a potential that might've been reached had they been forced to put the time in due to wrestling better competition. So one kid not working hard, versus the 10 that are working harder...I'll take the 10 working harder. More kids at the state tournament would not mean more kids wrestling in college. Colleges aren't going to expand their programs just because Indiana has twice as many kids at the state tournament. More kids at the state finals would get more kids wrestling in college. Right now our state tournament as "awesome" as it is, is not attended well by college coaches. Quite simply, they can go to Michigan, Illinois, Ohio, etc and watch 40+ kids per weight to recruit versus watching 16. If I'm a college coach I'm going to any of those tournaments. I'm talking about the numbers. A lot of posts are about having more success means more people want to come out to wrestle. I'm saying that at small schools there's hardly anyone available to come out. Small schools can realistically get 20-25 kids out every year under the right circumstances. When they have 50+ out for football, they can get half that for wrestling. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thor Posted February 14, 2015 Share Posted February 14, 2015 And a majority of those football players play basketball, swim, work, or do other school activities. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MattM Posted February 14, 2015 Share Posted February 14, 2015 (edited) I'm just shocked the possibly of additional revenue for classing individual sports hasn't atleast enticed the IHSAA to look into things further. Seems like if it is done in the right way they could pocket more and that seems to help drive some of the IHSAA decision making. Guessing the team sport basketball fiasco may have made them rethink that though. Edited February 14, 2015 by MattM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Y2CJ41 Posted February 14, 2015 Share Posted February 14, 2015 And a majority of those football players play basketball, swim, work, or do other school activities.So what is your expert opinion on how many wrestlers a school of 350 students can expect? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ENoblewrestling Posted February 14, 2015 Share Posted February 14, 2015 I am pretty sure it is permitted, but I don't know of any schools that have done it. Sure sounds like Churubusco and a few others are volunteering to move up to 2A in a classed system. I wonder how many coaches concerned about beating "the best" and calling class nonsense would stay quiet and fight in the 1A tournament I am not saying we would bump up if classing ever happened. I wish I had that much virtue, but honestly I don't. I would take the easier accolades, and I am sure that my team and staff would be all right with that. I honestly do not think that classing would kill the sport like I once did. I also don't think it would do anything to make wrestling in the state "better". It may add some kids at small schools I guess, but I don't believe that the easier path would cause the level of wrestling at small schools to improve. This season we had five kids on the team who went to camps, wrestled club and did the things currently needed to advance in the post season. Want to guess how many moved on in the post season? If we were classed those same kids and others who didn't put in the extra effort would be able to move on. The system we have now forces you to put in extra effort, if we classed you could get to a higher level without having to put in the extra effort. If that makes our sport better then I guess the is what we should shoot for. In the end I don't think the any small gain in numbers at small schools would be worth throwing away the strong tradition the our state has built. I have two kids wrestling tomorrow, if they make it, it's because they earned it under our current system. If they don't make it, it won't be a fault of the system they simple wouldn't qualify because they didn't earn it. I don't see a need to change our system because it is difficult. JoshMed 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thor Posted February 14, 2015 Share Posted February 14, 2015 So what is your expert opinion on how many wrestlers a school of 350 students can expect? I think you're spot on about the 20-25 at the very best but not half the football team. And a team could have numbers, but a team could have 12 of those wrestlers weigh under 145 or could have 4 wrestlers who weigh 220 and up. A big issue is getting kids at the right weights. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
B. Alan Posted February 14, 2015 Share Posted February 14, 2015 (edited) 40+ states have these "crying shames" as you like to put it. Amazing that none of these "crying shames" are reverting back to single class wrestling. Within the last 10 years Illinois has added a class along with New York actually going from single class to two classes. IL and NY are more or less dominated by private/parochial schools when it comes to wrestling(with the exception of OPRF). These schools go all over the country to wrestle. Their state tournament isn't as big of a deal to them. If IL wasn't classed three teams would very likely have ALL of the state champions. OPRF, Montinni Catholic and Marist. Indiana doesn't have that problem. Edited February 14, 2015 by B. Alan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Y2CJ41 Posted February 14, 2015 Share Posted February 14, 2015 I am not saying we would bump up if classing ever happened. I wish I had that much virtue, but honestly I don't. I would take the easier accolades, and I am sure that my team and staff would be all right with that. Just like you do with IHSWCA team state right? Why don't you bump up to 3A since you think 1A is watered down and an easier path? Challenge yourself and your team and quit hiding in the 1A class, Mater Dei did it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KarlHungus Posted February 14, 2015 Share Posted February 14, 2015 IL and NY are more or less dominated by private/parochial schools when it comes to wrestling(with the exception of OPRF). These schools go all over the country to wrestle. Their state tournament isn't as big of a deal to them. If IL wasn't classed three teams would very likely have ALL of the state champions. OPRF, Montinni Catholic and Marist. Indiana doesn't have that problem. Glenbard North and Sandburg would not agree with your statement. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
B. Alan Posted February 14, 2015 Share Posted February 14, 2015 Glenbard North and Sandburg would not agree with your statement. You're right. You'd have to throw Washington, St. Rita, and Marmion in there as well. The number of nationally ranked kids coming from this handful of schools is staggering, making a class system necessary. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neccdad Posted February 14, 2015 Share Posted February 14, 2015 I would encourage everyone wondering about class wrestling to head up to The Palace to in a few weeks to see Michigan's state finals. For a state to have several of the best wrestlers in the country every year, you would rarely know who they are because of the mess that comes with class wrestling. 12 mats, mass confusion, ridiculously hard to follow. It's all about that certain few kids that you are there to watch. I like to watch it all, I'm a fan of great wrestling. I have 3 wrestling fans from Michigan that come with me to see Indiana's state finals because, as they say "It's where it's at". We have allowed the ihsaa to ruin what the entire country knew was the best basketball tournament, let's not encourage the same with what has now become by far the BEST tournament our state has to offer. It would be a far reach to assume the ihsaa would only have 2 classes. It would be 3 or 4. The Finals are also held at the same time in class wrestling, I'm not a fan of wondering who just won a state title on May 3 when I wax keyed in on Mat 1. Get on YouTube and check it out. If u want class wrestling because your child goes to a smaller school and you think they would have a better chance that's understandable, however there are a lot of us out there that will be engaged in the sport long after said child is gone. Let's not fix it if it's not broken. I can just see the posts on here from parents of state champions ranting because there kid has never received a scholarship offer, because in reality a college scout or coach will see the real potential and talent level and it may not be good enough, even though you are a state champ. Kudos to the IHSAA for getting it right! Loki27, Thor, ENoblewrestling and 3 others 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neccdad Posted February 14, 2015 Share Posted February 14, 2015 Sorry about the auto correct. My point was missing something on one mat when you may be watching another mat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BeastMode#31 Posted February 14, 2015 Share Posted February 14, 2015 Neccdad- Great post. I think you are spot on. There was a dad on here last year that did/said exactly what you mentioned. He was upset because his son went to some grand wrestling camp and when he was registering at the beginning of the week the coach of a D1 program asked this guys son: D1 coach: " where are you from?" Kid: "Indiana" Coach: " did you make it to state meet?" Kid: "no, I made it to semi-state" The dad goes on to say that the coach did not show any interest in his kid the whole week of camp. BUT, if Indiana would have had a watered down class system his kid would have gotten some attention from said D1 coach. So I ask, "Is your kid a D1 caliber kid? Because most D1 caliber kids in Indiana are 3-4x state qualifiers" Dad says, "no" Then what are you complaining about? That your little Jimmy/Johnny can't say he is a state qualifier???? Most wrestlers are not state champs! It doesn't mean that wrestling is not an excellent sport. It teaches many great life lessons to those who are brave enough to step on a mat (whether you are a sectional qualifier or state champ). Afraid soccer moms/dads have infiltrated our great sport. Thor and munges 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts