Sectionals placing the unseeded wrestlers

[ENoblewrestling]

Is there any reason why we place the unseeded wrestlers the way we do at sectionals?  It is unfair to all involved for an unseeded kid to draw the #1 or the #2.  Usually they don't have much of a chance, but in a deeper sectional you will see some pretty good kids, kids that could be regional or semi-state qualifiers draw into the best kids in the rattails, I do not see why we place their season on a blind draw?

 

 

In our conference we seed 1-6, place 7 and 8 on the bracket based on record, then we draw in 9, 10, 11 against the 6,7, and 8. This at least gives these kids a chance, those ratails essentially become a "wrestle-in" match for the unseeded guys.  The way it stands now you could have a kid who is 3-27 get a better draw than a 25-10 kid, I have no clue why we do it this way.  

[janders2]

The reasoning for the blind draw of wrestlers into any open spot on the bracket is:

 

"7. A seeded contestant shall have the same opportunity to draw for a bye as other contestants in his bracket."

 

This is the last point in the Winter Bulletin regarding pairing and seeding. Not saying it makes sense in a tournament that doesn't score the first round, but that is the reasoning.   

[Major Ursula]

Is there any reason why we place the unseeded wrestlers the way we do at sectionals? It is unfair to all involved for an unseeded kid to draw the #1 or the #2. Usually they don't have much of a chance, but in a deeper sectional you will see some pretty good kids, kids that could be regional or semi-state qualifiers draw into the best kids in the rattails, I do not see why we place their season on a blind draw?

 

 

In our conference we seed 1-6, place 7 and 8 on the bracket based on record, then we draw in 9, 10, 11 against the 6,7, and 8. This at least gives these kids a chance, those ratails essentially become a "wrestle-in" match for the unseeded guys. The way it stands now you could have a kid who is 3-27 get a better draw than a 25-10 kid, I have no clue why we do it this way.

This is not personal so please don't take it that way. I never understood why people are concerned about seeds. I hope every kid who enters a tournament, invite or sectional, steps to that line intent on winning. To win sectionals I have to beat everyone who steps to the line. So it doesn't matter if I wrestle the supposed best first or last I have to win. When I was a senior I was unseeded at Conference and in the rat tail. I won. Seeded second to an undefeated wrestler in sectionals I won. My son was the top seed at conference this past week...he was upset by the 8th seed. His sectional draw is one of his best buddies. Someone has to lose. That's one of the tough lessons we learn from wrestling in a one class system. Yet philosophically seeds are only someone's opinion on how good you are. Prove'em wrong.

[base]

Here's the major issue I have with the current sectional bracketing:

 

 

Sectional A -- 11 participating schools, 3 wrestlers are 1-and-done.  If they lose the "rat-tail" round then they are out

 

Sectional B -- 8 participating schools.  Essentially wrestle-backs for the entire field

 

 

I wouldn't mind if they keep the random seeding for #7 through #11, but give them a chance to still compete for the top 4 if they lose that first round

[Coach Peck]

Here's the major issue I have with the current sectional bracketing:

 

 

Sectional A -- 11 participating schools, 3 wrestlers are 1-and-done.  If they lose the "rat-tail" round then they are out

 

Sectional B -- 8 participating schools.  Essentially wrestle-backs for the entire field

 

 

I wouldn't mind if they keep the random seeding for #7 through #11, but give them a chance to still compete for the top 4 if they lose that first round

The problem is that where a Sectional requires a 16 man bracket to have full wrestlebacks it would possibly mean some wrestlers might have to wrestle more times than National Federation Rules allow.

[littlevito]

I think it is fine just the way it is. In all honesty, there is no Sectional that is "deep" enough that an unseeded wrestler is a semi-state caliber wrestler. People need to quit whining about "fairness". Just another part of America becoming more and more wimpier.

[timbo]

I think many sectionals pair up the unseeded wrestlers in the rat tail. Basically wrestle another unseeded person to get into the 8 man bracket

[ENoblewrestling]

I think it is fine just the way it is. In all honesty, there is no Sectional that is "deep" enough that an unseeded wrestler is a semi-state caliber wrestler. People need to quit whining about "fairness". Just another part of America becoming more and more wimpier.

You might be saying that because of the lack of depth at your sectional, but I see solid kids every year that either do or potentially get screwed by a random draw.  You guys are always on here proclaiming to know what is best for our sport, but how would this easy fix that helps to ensure that solid kids get a fair shot any different than people whining about "fairness" when it comes to wrestlebacks?  I guess wrestlebacks are just another part of America becoming more and more wimpier.

[Troll]

This is not personal so please don't take it that way. I never understood why people are concerned about seeds. I hope every kid who enters a tournament, invite or sectional, steps to that line intent on winning. To win sectionals I have to beat everyone who steps to the line. So it doesn't matter if I wrestle the supposed best first or last I have to win. When I was a senior I was unseeded at Conference and in the rat tail. I won. Seeded second to an undefeated wrestler in sectionals I won. My son was the top seed at conference this past week...he was upset by the 8th seed. His sectional draw is one of his best buddies. Someone has to lose. That's one of the tough lessons we learn from wrestling in a one class system. Yet philosophically seeds are only someone's opinion on how good you are. Prove'em wrong.

You're logic only works in very rare situations and is quite frankly, stupid.  Sure, all wrestlers should go out to the line with an intent to win, but that does not mean every wrestler has the skill set to do so.  We do seeds so you don't have the best two kids wrestle each other first round and have a potential state runner-up get beat out at sectionals.  The state tournament isn't settled in a day, it is settled over four weeks.  Which means two wrestlers could wrestle each other every week with a different outcome every time.  Knocking out a state runner-up or even state champ first round of sectionals is the dumbest thing you could do for the sport of wrestling.  How do you not understand why people are concerned with seeds?  Are you that thick?

[littlevito]

You might be saying that because of the lack of depth at your sectional, but I see solid kids every year that either do or potentially get screwed by a random draw.  You guys are always on here proclaiming to know what is best for our sport, but how would this easy fix that helps to ensure that solid kids get a fair shot any different than people whining about "fairness" when it comes to wrestlebacks?  I guess wrestlebacks are just another part of America becoming more and more wimpier.

Wrestlebacks are way more logical than worrying about where a kid gets placed in a draw at Sectionals. I understand that you want to fight for your kids and give them the best chance to earn a 4th Place Sectional patch. But it doesn't matter what Sectional you are in, you already know 95% of which kids are going through. Maybe a wrestler should have done a better job at wrestling instead of putting himself in a position to be one and done at Sectionals. And depth has nothing to do with actual quality. A good wrestler is going to win, while a wrestler with an inflated record making it look like a deep weight class is going to lose. 

[arch.74]

im not in disagreement that some good kids get put out early, but in most cases, the top 4 seeds are the more consistent wrestlers. I didn't say best because any kid that steps out on the mat can have the best 6 minutes of his wrestling career and beat a seeded wrestler, it happens every year thru out these next few weeks. In the end, I feel the best kids end up at Bankers, imho

im not in disagreement that some good kids get put out early, but in most cases, the top 4 seeds are the more consistent wrestlers. I didn't say best because any kid that steps out on the mat can have the best 6 minutes of his wrestling career and beat a seeded wrestler, it happens every year thru out these next few weeks. In the end, I feel the best kids end up at Bankers, imho

[littlevito]

The first drawn and second drawn have to go into the 7th and 8th spots. You would rather a 1 or 2 seed have a bye to the semis, just so your kid wrestles a 3-6 seed?

[GrecoCoach]

The reasoning for the blind draw of wrestlers into any open spot on the bracket is:

 

"7. A seeded contestant shall have the same opportunity to draw for a bye as other contestants in his bracket."

 

This is the last point in the Winter Bulletin regarding pairing and seeding. Not saying it makes sense in a tournament that doesn't score the first round, but that is the reasoning.   

 

An unseeded wrestler has zero chance to draw a bye, so it is possible to take away the "chance" of a seeded wrestler drawing a bye and instead just give it to him.

 

When the round of 16 doesn't score any team points, the top seeds should be given the byes.  No wrestler should have his season end the first round of sectionals by drawing into the state champ.  I don't care if he's 0-20 or if he just missed being seeded based on a technicality.  The IHSAA has approved this and some sectionals already do it.  I'm disappointed that the IHSAA has not told all sectionals to do it.

[Y2CJ41]

An unseeded wrestler has zero chance to draw a bye, so it is possible to take away the "chance" of a seeded wrestler drawing a bye and instead just give it to him.

 

When the round of 16 doesn't score any team points, the top seeds should be given the byes.  No wrestler should have his season end the first round of sectionals by drawing into the state champ.  I don't care if he's 0-20 or if he just missed being seeded based on a technicality.  The IHSAA has approved this and some sectionals already do it.  I'm disappointed that the IHSAA has not told all sectionals to do it.

Unseeded wrestlers are drawn into the 7th and 8th seed spots, those spots have an equal chance to draw a bye.  

 

The IHSAA did not approve that as we looked into it a couple years ago.

[janders2]

An unseeded wrestler has zero chance to draw a bye, so it is possible to take away the "chance" of a seeded wrestler drawing a bye and instead just give it to him.

 

When the round of 16 doesn't score any team points, the top seeds should be given the byes.  No wrestler should have his season end the first round of sectionals by drawing into the state champ.  I don't care if he's 0-20 or if he just missed being seeded based on a technicality.  The IHSAA has approved this and some sectionals already do it.  I'm disappointed that the IHSAA has not told all sectionals to do it.

 

Just quoting the manual.  The IHSAA makes it very clear though the Bulletin and the Tournament Manual what they want their Tournament Directors to do.  They publish this information to be transparent so it will eliminate the possibility of different sites doing different things.  With that being said, I wouldn't doubt that some sites choose to disregard this information (they are only human).  If a site is going off of the norm that is set, it may not be approved.  Or, it may be approved.  There is no telling really.

 

My opinion on seeds and criteria: they are important.  Criteria was created to show an athletes Proven abilities. In general it is very good at sorting out the best wrestlers.  Will there always be teams with inflated records due to their schedules, yes.  Nothing can really be done to change that except to have some of those other teams at those Sectionals create some dual meets to get head-to-head competition.  Will there be issues where very good wrestlers get placed on the same side of the bracket, absolutely.  Sometimes that will happen.  Will the IHSAA ever approve a "strength of schedule" quotient, I very much doubt that (leaning more towards never going to happen).  

 

In the end, every wrestler does have to step to that line and make their own destiny. If a coach thinks his wrestler should have been seeded 3rd instead of 4th (to put him on the bottom of the bracket), he still will have to win those matches.  Technically, he is still on track to go to the same match (3rd/4th).  Does that take away the chance of an "upset" over the 2 seed, yes. This is competition, and you have to step up.  The State Tournament Series is not the place to be concerned about giving a kid who is 7-25 a second or third match in the day. We are looking for the best.  The cream will rise to the top.  

[maligned]

What some people aren't understanding about the concerns of coaches from small schools like Busco that are in deep sectionals is that they are also fighting for spots in the State Duals.  Getting 5th or 6th compared to losing in a rat-tail matters in 1A qualifying. 

 

And people also don't understand that not all sectionals are created equally.  There are absolutely some weight classes at deeper sectionals whose 4 thru 7 are better than sectional winners from sectionals with 8 small schools.  Last year, the Zionsville sectional went 46-10 against the Crawfordsville sectional in the first round at regional (and C'ville is FAR from the worst sectional).  C'ville's champs went 9-5 and the rest went 1-41.  You think there weren't some 5/6/7s at the loaded Zionsville sectional that could have advanced to semi-state if the tournament had been re-wrestled a few times?  

 

What busco is asking is simply: once the 7th and 8th spots are filled and there's 2-3 of us left to draw, isn't there a way to make sure that my decent kid can wrestle bottom seeds for a chance to prove he might be top 4 instead of getting an automatic out ticket?

[hook and half]

You're logic only works in very rare situations and is quite frankly, stupid.  Sure, all wrestlers should go out to the line with an intent to win, but that does not mean every wrestler has the skill set to do so.  We do seeds so you don't have the best two kids wrestle each other first round and have a potential state runner-up get beat out at sectionals.  The state tournament isn't settled in a day, it is settled over four weeks.  Which means two wrestlers could wrestle each other every week with a different outcome every time.  Knocking out a state runner-up or even state champ first round of sectionals is the dumbest thing you could do for the sport of wrestling.  How do you not understand why people are concerned with seeds?  Are you that thick?

Troll up

[arch.74]

What some people aren't understanding about the concerns of coaches from small schools like Busco that are in deep sectionals is that they are also fighting for spots in the State Duals.  Getting 5th or 6th compared to losing in a rat-tail matters in 1A qualifying. 

 

And people also don't understand that not all sectionals are created equally.  There are absolutely some weight classes at deeper sectionals whose 4 thru 7 are better than sectional winners from sectionals with 8 small schools.  Last year, the Zionsville sectional went 46-10 against the Crawfordsville sectional in the first round at regional (and C'ville is FAR from the worst sectional).  C'ville's champs went 9-5 and the rest went 1-41.  You think there weren't some 5/6/7s at the loaded Zionsville sectional that could have advanced to semi-state if the tournament had been re-wrestled a few times?  

 

What busco is asking is simply: once the 7th and 8th spots are filled and there's 2-3 of us left to draw, isn't there a way to make sure that my decent kid can wrestle bottom seeds for a chance to prove he might be top 4 instead of getting an automatic out ticket?

you'd pretty much have to give the #1 and #2 a bye first round to put your "draw kids" up against an unseeded or low seeded wrestler. I think that could open up a hole other can of worms!! IMHO.

[maligned]

you'd pretty much have to give the #1 and #2 a bye first round to put your "draw kids" up against an unseeded or low seeded wrestler. I think that could open up a hole other can of worms!! IMHO.

What can of worms??  Again, rat-tail matches don't count toward scoring, so what other drawback is there?  There are plenty of sports that automatically give the higher seeds byes and let the lower seeds go at it first.  This isn't new, dangerous territory we're talking about.

[Major Ursula]

You're logic only works in very rare situations and is quite frankly, stupid. Sure, all wrestlers should go out to the line with an intent to win, but that does not mean every wrestler has the skill set to do so. We do seeds so you don't have the best two kids wrestle each other first round and have a potential state runner-up get beat out at sectionals. The state tournament isn't settled in a day, it is settled over four weeks. Which means two wrestlers could wrestle each other every week with a different outcome every time. Knocking out a state runner-up or even state champ first round of sectionals is the dumbest thing you could do for the sport of wrestling. How do you not understand why people are concerned with seeds? Are you that thick?

am I thick? Yes I weigh 220 at 5'4" that's fairly thick I'd say. I hope you are being facetious. If not you are dense. Your logic sounds like an 18 year old on JV. The dumbest thing to happen to wrestling is people whinning about seeds. To quote Littlevito "people need to quit whinning about fairness.....becoming more and more wimpier."

[Troll]

am I thick? Yes I weigh 220 at 5'4" that's fairly thick I'd say. I hope you are being facetious. If not you are dense. Your logic sounds like an 18 year old on JV. The dumbest thing to happen to wrestling is people whinning about seeds. To quote Littlevito "people need to quit whinning about fairness.....becoming more and more wimpier."

I agree people shouldn't whine when they aren't good enough to get seeded in the top 6.  But what you were describing is everyone getting thrown into a hat and have a random draw because the best wrestler will get through anyway.  That is stupid. At least the top 4 should be separated.  Some years a sectional could be good enough to have 4 wrestlers place at state.  It would be a shame for one of those to get randomly drawn into a state champ first round.  

 

Just because a kid that should be a 2 seed complains about drawing into a 1 seed doesn't mean he is most wimpiest.

[tyquhp13]

I dont know if this the right forum to ask this , but I was just looking at the brackets and was curious how the number two seed gets the first found ff instead of the number one in a bracket with only one ff? I thought one of the perks of being top seed was having the so called easier road ( I'm aware that no road is easy and every match needs to be wrestled to determine a winner)

[base]

I dont know if this the right forum to ask this , but I was just looking at the brackets and was curious how the number two seed gets the first found ff instead of the number one in a bracket with only one ff? I thought one of the perks of being top seed was having the so called easier road ( I'm aware that no road is easy and every match needs to be wrestled to determine a winner)

 

My understanding of it is this -- the top 6 seeds are separated traditionally on a bracket.  The remaining open spots are randomly selected from among the remaining wrestlers to fill.  So the byes have an equal chance of being rewarded to the #1 through #6 wrestlers

[base]

I took a few minutes last night to look through some of the larger brackets to find some examples of where I feel like the unseeded losers of the rattail matches should have a chance to fight back for 3rd/4th and a spot at regionals.

 

Yes, I realize that in the grand scheme of things an unseeded wrestler probably isn't going to be a state qualifier, but realize that for some of these kids a trip to Regionals would be their season goal.  Tough to watch another wrestler with a 2-14 record have a second and maybe third round match while you are out after one.

 

Ok, if you want to, take a look at these (please don't take these personally if it is your son.  I am just comparing records, it's not personal):

 

Castle Sectional, 145 lb bracket

A wrestler with a 4-0 record draws into the #1 seed in the first round.  If he loses, he's done.

Two other wrestlers with records of 16-5 and 18-10 have to face off in the first round.  One of them is done

Meanwhile a freshman with a record of 1-10 draws a bye in the first round.  Even if he loses his next match, he gets to wrestle for placement and Regionals

 

Carroll (Ft Wayne) Sectional, 220 lb bracket

Wrestler with 25-9 record is drawn to wrestle the #1 seed in the rattail match.  One of them (let's say the #1 seed loses to this wrestler with a clearly good record) is done for the season without a chance to compete for 3rd/4th

 

Hamilton Heights Sectional, 132 lb bracket

Wrestler with 18-6 record is drawn to face the #1 seed (who must have come back from injury? with a 1-0 record).  The 18-6 wrestler (if he loses) does not get a chance to wrestle for a probably more appropriate 3rd/4th place.  He is forced to beat #1 or he's gone

[frigginhurts]

I took a few minutes last night to look through some of the larger brackets to find some examples of where I feel like the unseeded losers of the rattail matches should have a chance to fight back for 3rd/4th and a spot at regionals.

 

Yes, I realize that in the grand scheme of things an unseeded wrestler probably isn't going to be a state qualifier, but realize that for some of these kids a trip to Regionals would be their season goal.  Tough to watch another wrestler with a 2-14 record have a second and maybe third round match while you are out after one.

 

Ok, if you want to, take a look at these (please don't take these personally if it is your son.  I am just comparing records, it's not personal):

 

Castle Sectional, 145 lb bracket

A wrestler with a 4-0 record draws into the #1 seed in the first round.  If he loses, he's done.

Two other wrestlers with records of 16-5 and 18-10 have to face off in the first round.  One of them is done

Meanwhile a freshman with a record of 1-10 draws a bye in the first round.  Even if he loses his next match, he gets to wrestle for placement and Regionals

 

Carroll (Ft Wayne) Sectional, 220 lb bracket

Wrestler with 25-9 record is drawn to wrestle the #1 seed in the rattail match.  One of them (let's say the #1 seed loses to this wrestler with a clearly good record) is done for the season without a chance to compete for 3rd/4th

 

Hamilton Heights Sectional, 132 lb bracket

Wrestler with 18-6 record is drawn to face the #1 seed (who must have come back from injury? with a 1-0 record).  The 18-6 wrestler (if he loses) does not get a chance to wrestle for a probably more appropriate 3rd/4th place.  He is forced to beat #1 or he's gone

 you are correct...the way we seed this is ridiculous.   and if you say we are wimps then lets get rid of ALL wrestlebacks at every level and only the champs should advance.  all rat tails should draw into the lowest seeded wrestlers...its pretty simple.