Greatsport Posted February 24, 2014 Share Posted February 24, 2014 Yep class basketball really helped that sport. Name the 4 or was it 5 class basketball champs last year. Hey if your a stud wrestler you can compete against the big schools. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
munges Posted February 24, 2014 Share Posted February 24, 2014 I was just going over some enrollment numbers and I saw some 1 a schools who had more state streeters than schools over 1,000 in enrollment. That can't be possible can it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fearless fly Posted February 25, 2014 Share Posted February 25, 2014 I think this would make for a good poll. 2 class individual system or keep it as 1. Personally, I like to find out who the true number one is on Saturday, but I understand the opposition. Just a differing of opinions. wont do any good....tried that...someone likes to change the numbers coming in... ah, I remember it well..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Y2CJ41 Posted February 25, 2014 Share Posted February 25, 2014 I was just going over some enrollment numbers and I saw some 1 a schools who had more state streeters than schools over 1,000 in enrollment. That can't be possible can it? I can find where a 3A team has 50+ state qualifiers while a 1A team has only a couple. The cool thing with a class system, even those bigger schools that are struggling will get a boost in kids at state or on the verge of state qualification. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Madtownxwrestler Posted February 25, 2014 Share Posted February 25, 2014 http://indianamat.com/messageboard/index.php/topic,30104.0.html Small schools average 9 kids in their lineup this year, that isn't healthy. That isn't a good sign for our state in terms of participation. 12 state qualifiers for the smallest schools...that is almost as many as Penn as a team had! 1A teams scored a combined 4 points at state this weekend. That is a combination of 105 schools! 1A teams produced one state place winner this year. If those aren't alarming statistics I don't know what isn't. Schools are in budget crunches and a sport like wrestling is easy to axe when they have a severe lack of participants and interest. Stop using the stats the way you want to any school that moved to larger class by choice needs to be included (EMD) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unknown Caller Posted February 25, 2014 Share Posted February 25, 2014 If Indiana would vote this in it would possibly give the sport a little more pull with the IHSAA. Think about it, twice the fans, twice the revenue. They talk about our sport not being a big money maker, well theirs a start Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BeastMode#31 Posted February 25, 2014 Share Posted February 25, 2014 Incredibly mature. It's definitely tougher to make a logical argument then to make a comment like that isn't it? Hilarious. Mature enough not to waste my time making the same argument over and over with a guy who has a couple years experience as an assistant HS coach (at one small and one big school so now he knows what's best for Indiana wrestling). Please spare me the Findlay talk... I want the opinions of the expert wrestlers from Indiana. The guys who know there stuff and have NO BIAS here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Madtownxwrestler Posted February 25, 2014 Share Posted February 25, 2014 Let's think about this. Kids that are now on the verge of being a state qualifier or maybe not even that close would become state qualifiers with two or three class system. So now their parents will be spending more money in hotel cost, ticket cost, food at state and so on. Let's face it, it's not exactly cheap to spend a weekend in indy for state finals. So now that these kids that are state qualifiers does that somehow make them better nationally? No does it make them better in practice? No. So these kids aren't any better at all but are now state qualifiers. So wouldn't the hundreds of dollars spent watching a normally undeserving kid at state be better spent sending them to camps or RTCs during the off season that would actually improve their skills not just give them a title of state qualifier? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ENoblewrestling Posted February 25, 2014 Share Posted February 25, 2014 If Indiana would vote this in it would possibly give the sport a little more pull with the IHSAA. Think about it, twice the fans, twice the revenue. They talk about our sport not being a big money maker, well theirs a start The IHSWCA surveyed this a few years ago, and the vast majority, at least 80% of the coaches said that they did not want it (it may have been closer to 90% I cannot remember). I coach at a small school, we have had a fair amount of success. I have been very open about my opinions on class wrestling in the past. I will say that I have changed in this regard, while I don't think that class wrestling would add much for anyone, I also don't think that it would completely kill the sport here either. For us it would just mean that all of a sudden our regional, and semi-state guys would be called state qualifiers. The kids have said as much when we discuss this and it would be what it would be I guess. My kids that want to become better wrestlers and challenge for state do so. They work in the off season and go to camps. They are usually pretty successful by the end of their careers. The kids that would be helped by class wrestling are the ones who are on the team, but don't put in the extra time to get better, they would all of a sudden move further on in the tournament, and would be able to do so by doing what they are already doing. I think that small schools can and do compete pretty well in our state. I never feel as though I our my kids are somehow cheated by the system. OUr kids have been state qualifiers, and those that have made it are the ones have are the best athletes, and the ones that work the hardest. This is the same at schools of any size, it just so happens that big schools have more kids that work harder and are better athletes. In my opinion my top end guys are at no disadvantage because they wrestle for us as opposed to anyone else. Sometimes I do think about what it would be like to have classed individual state, and I think that it would be nice to have it a little easier in getting kids to "state" but to be honest that is for completely selfish reasons, I truly don't think it would mean that our kids have gotten better, just that they had an easier road to get there. The kids that work hard will still be the state qualifiers, they just will have a better chance to get there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Y2CJ41 Posted February 25, 2014 Share Posted February 25, 2014 Mature enough not to waste my time making the same argument over and over with a guy who has a couple years experience as an assistant HS coach (at one small and one big school so now he knows what's best for Indiana wrestling). Please spare me the Findlay talk... I want the opinions of the expert wrestlers from Indiana. The guys who know there stuff and have NO BIAS here. Actually been at two big schools and one small school. Why would I be biased, I am at a big school now. I LOVE beating up on the 1A teams!!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Y2CJ41 Posted February 25, 2014 Share Posted February 25, 2014 The IHSWCA surveyed this a few years ago, and the vast majority, at least 80% of the coaches said that they did not want it (it may have been closer to 90% I cannot remember). I coach at a small school, we have had a fair amount of success. I have been very open about my opinions on class wrestling in the past. I will say that I have changed in this regard, while I don't think that class wrestling would add much for anyone, I also don't think that it would completely kill the sport here either. For us it would just mean that all of a sudden our regional, and semi-state guys would be called state qualifiers. The kids have said as much when we discuss this and it would be what it would be I guess. My kids that want to become better wrestlers and challenge for state do so. They work in the off season and go to camps. They are usually pretty successful by the end of their careers. The kids that would be helped by class wrestling are the ones who are on the team, but don't put in the extra time to get better, they would all of a sudden move further on in the tournament, and would be able to do so by doing what they are already doing. I think that small schools can and do compete pretty well in our state. I never feel as though I our my kids are somehow cheated by the system. OUr kids have been state qualifiers, and those that have made it are the ones have are the best athletes, and the ones that work the hardest. This is the same at schools of any size, it just so happens that big schools have more kids that work harder and are better athletes. In my opinion my top end guys are at no disadvantage because they wrestle for us as opposed to anyone else. Sometimes I do think about what it would be like to have classed individual state, and I think that it would be nice to have it a little easier in getting kids to "state" but to be honest that is for completely selfish reasons, I truly don't think it would mean that our kids have gotten better, just that they had an easier road to get there. The kids that work hard will still be the state qualifiers, they just will have a better chance to get there. So getting 12 state qualifiers for 105 teams is now what you would call "competing pretty well." Are you also saying that in states with class wrestling kids don't have to "work hard" to become a state qualifier? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Madtownxwrestler Posted February 25, 2014 Share Posted February 25, 2014 Y2 is still beating the dead horse only using numbers he wants. EMD had 8 state qualifiers which means there were at least 20 in the small schools. And also you said two classes would be perfect for individual which means the "small school division" would then gain about 50 more schools which I'm sure would change the numbers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fearless fly Posted February 25, 2014 Share Posted February 25, 2014 what about the B wrestlers of the really good teams ? I bet there is a state qualifier in there somewhere but who are they ? We need to get them included in the tournament also. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ENoblewrestling Posted February 25, 2014 Share Posted February 25, 2014 what about the B wrestlers of the really good teams ? I bet there is a state qualifier in there somewhere but who are they ? We need to get them included in the tournament also. Two of our semi-state qualifiers lost in a dual with Carroll's B team. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ENoblewrestling Posted February 25, 2014 Share Posted February 25, 2014 So getting 12 state qualifiers for 105 teams is now what you would call "competing pretty well." Are you also saying that in states with class wrestling kids don't have to "work hard" to become a state qualifier? This year was lower than most years. This debate happens every year and usually a little more than 25% of the state qualifiers are from 1A schools, and about 25% of the students are from 1A. That is a ratio actually says to me that 1A school do better than they should by just a little bit. This year the number seems lower than most years. The semi-states have their fair share of small school guys. I also think that making it to semi-state is a big deal, to me you have a real shot at state from there, its usually a difference between winning and loosing a close match, so I would say that yes we compete very well in that regard. As far as kids not having to work hard, that is not what I said. Our kids that don't make it out of sectionals all work hard. Every kid who is at semi-state works very hard, or has a ton of natural ability, that doesn't mean they should just become state qualifiers. I am sure the classed kids work very hard. My kids work hard, they would work hard if it were classed. The kids that make it to state now are very exceptional, in a classed system you would just have to be really good to make it, instead of exceptional, thats the difference to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Y2CJ41 Posted February 25, 2014 Share Posted February 25, 2014 This year was lower than most years. This debate happens every year and usually a little more than 25% of the state qualifiers are from 1A schools, and about 25% of the students are from 1A. That is a ratio actually says to me that 1A school do better than they should by just a little bit. This year the number seems lower than most years. The semi-states have their fair share of small school guys. I also think that making it to semi-state is a big deal, to me you have a real shot at state from there, its usually a difference between winning and loosing a close match, so I would say that yes we compete very well in that regard. As far as kids not having to work hard, that is not what I said. Our kids that don't make it out of sectionals all work hard. Every kid who is at semi-state works very hard, or has a ton of natural ability, that doesn't mean they should just become state qualifiers. I am sure the classed kids work very hard. My kids work hard, they would work hard if it were classed. The kids that make it to state now are very exceptional, in a classed system you would just have to be really good to make it, instead of exceptional, thats the difference to me. 1A is in reference to a three class system. The bottom 105 teams are not exactly lighting the world on fire. OUr kids have been state qualifiers, and those that have made it are the ones have are the best athletes, and the ones that work the hardest. This is the same at schools of any size, it just so happens that big schools have more kids that work harder and are better athletes. So are you saying the kids that don't make it to state are not working hard? Just want to make sure I am not misquoting you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
munges Posted February 25, 2014 Share Posted February 25, 2014 Come on Y2 you know what he meant by that and he addressed it earlier in the post "My kids that want to become better wrestlers and challenge for state do so. They work in the off season and go to camps. They are usually pretty successful by the end of their careers. The kids that would be helped by class wrestling are the ones who are on the team, but don't put in the extra time to get better" You can't tell me you disagree with this part of his statement. It is not to say the other kids don't work hard but they might be going to football or baseball things in the offseason. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ENoblewrestling Posted February 25, 2014 Share Posted February 25, 2014 1A is in reference to a three class system. The bottom 105 teams are not exactly lighting the world on fire. So are you saying the kids that don't make it to state are not working hard? Just want to make sure I am not misquoting you. as far as the bottom 105 not setting the world on fire, plenty of those teams were at semi-state, so they had a legit shot at a stater imo. im not saying the kids that dont make it to state are not working hard at all, it pry came off that way, i spent a while trying to decide how to word that, it came off wrong. our staters have been our best atheletes and they have worked very hard as well. our kids that havent made it to state have also been good atheletes and have worked hard. hard work alone doesnt get a kid to state, there are a lot of things that go into it. our hardest working kid that i have coached was zack armstead, he came up just short of making it to state, it didnt mean that the four that made it worked any harder than him, or that they were better atheletes. it does mean that they either where better wreslters, or had a better match or two at some point. zack armstead, or any of my kids that didnt make it to state didnt make it due to the fact that they were either out worked, out wrestled, or had some bad luck during the tournament. the fact that they went to a 1a school was not the reason that any of them didnt make it to state. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snoopy Posted February 25, 2014 Share Posted February 25, 2014 One point nobody has mentioned. I've had guys go to rtc, camps, trips, but then summer ends. I've watched technique and skills slip away during the season due to quality of work out partners in the room. Let us work together during the tournament series. Yea right. With nothing in it. I will say a neighboring school has won both girls and boys basketball and I have never heard a word about it only being a 1A title. I've seen good athletes be a reserve bb player rather than a good wrestler cause he's got a good chance to go to state. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RAJR Posted February 25, 2014 Share Posted February 25, 2014 My understanding is that the purpose of student-athletics is to teach life skills such as work ethic, discipline, teamwork, sportsmanship and goal setting... The main goal wasn't to determine the best wrestler in the state (although it's a great byproduct). The development of well rounded individuals was the goal. Key to that would be participation. I wrestled for a large school and my sons for a smaller school, there is no comparison. Workout partners, facilities and even numbers help with fund raising. I once read something to the effect of "One of the biggest obstacles facing wrestling and it's growth is staring back at us in the mirror". Unfortunately, I tend to agree. I still hear about a local 1A school that won state years ago in basketball, doesn't seem to bother them. Basketball was already losing attendance before it was classed. If you talk to most smaller schools, they aren't disappointed years later. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
et1 Posted February 25, 2014 Share Posted February 25, 2014 Speaking from another sports class perspective (baseball) I would have been extremely excited to have even won a sectional in class 2a baseball. I played on a team that was subpar at best but we had great participation and had some great times. Our wrestling team (our schools most successful sport by win percentage) is lucky to have a full team. Our basketball programs on the other hand had some success in the recent past and made it to a couple 2a state championship games for the boys and a couple long runs and i believe 3 regional titles in a row. Nobody looks down on their titles because they are 2a titles. They still celebrate and talk about them. I am not for giving out participation trophies and I've had my butt handed to my in baseball more times than I can count and wrestling eded up a disaster for me after internal injures but I don't think winning the 1a title would be a demeaning thing. Winning a 1a title would be celebrated just as much as our last state champion wrestler in 09. I also second the good wrestlers playing basketball to win. We have had multiple guys who played basketball, won sectional and regional titles. They then gave up basketball for wrestling and were semi state qualifiers. So I think success factor does matter to a young kid and could make a difference whether or not they wrestle. Why would you not want to increase participation in the sport? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XCard Posted February 25, 2014 Share Posted February 25, 2014 How many 1A and 2A kids are recruited by D1 schools in other states? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Madtownxwrestler Posted February 25, 2014 Share Posted February 25, 2014 My understanding is that the purpose of student-athletics is to teach life skills such as work ethic, discipline, teamwork, sportsmanship and goal setting... The main goal wasn't to determine the best wrestler in the state (although it's a great byproduct). The development of well rounded individuals was the goal. Key to that would be participation. I wrestled for a large school and my sons for a smaller school, there is no comparison. Workout partners, facilities and even numbers help with fund raising. I once read something to the effect of "One of the biggest obstacles facing wrestling and it's growth is staring back at us in the mirror". Unfortunately, I tend to agree. I still hear about a local 1A school that won state years ago in basketball, doesn't seem to bother them. Basketball was already losing attendance before it was classed. If you talk to most smaller schools, they aren't disappointed years later. Stop comparing INDIVIDUAL wrestling tournaments to basketball and baseball which is a TEAM sport only Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fabio Jr. Posted February 25, 2014 Share Posted February 25, 2014 We should discuss this on the hangout with the season being out i think it would be great way to discuss these hot button issues and try to get multiple viewpoints out there Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wrestling Scholar Posted February 25, 2014 Share Posted February 25, 2014 We should discuss this on the hangout with the season being out i think it would be great way to discuss these hot button issues and try to get multiple viewpoints out there Fabio, You're so much more diplomatic this year. Seriously. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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