H1N1 Posted March 4, 2014 Share Posted March 4, 2014 Okay, is it just me or does the title of this thread (Let's not ruin the gift) seem like the inscription on a Jonas Brothers purity ring? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ENoblewrestling Posted March 4, 2014 Share Posted March 4, 2014 The IHSAA is a different beast. If they were to do this, it would happen across all individual sports. It would take more than wrestling coaches to get this done. It would take track, cross country, tennis, golf, etc coaches also. It would really take a big proposal from principals who would push for this for it to go through. Having more tan 10-20% of the coaches in the state supporting a move to class wrestling would probably help too. Just because a very vocal minority (again somewhere between 10 and 20% of the coaches last time it was surveyed...I don't have the exact numbers) say they want something doesn't mean it's going to happen. Hell something like 85% said duals were the best way to determine the team champ and we see where that got us. I doubt they care what 10 guys on indianamat think. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Y2CJ41 Posted March 4, 2014 Share Posted March 4, 2014 Having more tan 10-20% of the coaches in the state supporting a move to class wrestling would probably help too. Just because a very vocal minority (again somewhere between 10 and 20% of the coaches last time it was surveyed...I don't have the exact numbers) say they want something doesn't mean it's going to happen. Hell something like 85% said duals were the best way to determine the team champ and we see where that got us. I doubt they care what 10 guys on indianamat think. Even if it were 100% the IHSAA isn't going to listen to the IHSWCA. Most likely because of the past history of IHSWCA presidents that are liars and shady people. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ENoblewrestling Posted March 4, 2014 Share Posted March 4, 2014 Even if it were 100% the IHSAA isn't going to listen to the IHSWCA. Most likely because of the past history of IHSWCA presidents that are liars and shady people. I never knew that, which ones are you referring to? I honestly ask because in 100% of the experiences that I have had with the coaches association I have dealt with a bunch of guys who volunteer their time to do what is best for the sport in Indiana. I literally have never felt that the people that I volunteer to work with to help our sport are shady or liars ( I have only been doing stuff with the IHSWCA during presidents Cale Hoover, Trent McCorrmick, and Danny Struck time). I get that you don't agree with the IHSWCA association on a lot of things, but that doesn't make them shady, or liars. Do you have any thing to make your claim valid, just throwing unsubstantiated accusations out about a group of volunteers seems fairly shady to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Y2CJ41 Posted March 4, 2014 Share Posted March 4, 2014 I never knew that, which ones are you referring to? I honestly ask because in 100% of the experiences that I have had with the coaches association I have dealt with a bunch of guys who volunteer their time to do what is best for the sport in Indiana. I literally have never felt that the people that I volunteer to work with to help our sport are shady or liars ( I have only been doing stuff with the IHSWCA during presidents Cale Hoover, Trent McCorrmick, and Danny Struck time). I get that you don't agree with the IHSWCA association on a lot of things, but that doesn't make them shady, or liars. Do you have any thing to make your claim valid, just throwing unsubstantiated accusations out about a group of volunteers seems fairly shady to me. It is neither of those guys, it is a former president that is somehow in the Hall of Fame. I have explicit proof that he was lying to kids and coaches today. It is a shame that a supposed leader has to resort to lying. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bog190 Posted March 4, 2014 Share Posted March 4, 2014 Having more tan 10-20% of the coaches in the state supporting a move to class wrestling would probably help too. Just because a very vocal minority (again somewhere between 10 and 20% of the coaches last time it was surveyed...I don't have the exact numbers) say they want something doesn't mean it's going to happen. Hell something like 85% said duals were the best way to determine the team champ and we see where that got us. I doubt they care what 10 guys on indianamat think. Just curious, when was this survey that you continue to reference done? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Madtownxwrestler Posted March 4, 2014 Share Posted March 4, 2014 Just so no one is confused state[ steyt ] 7. a politically unified people occupying a definite territory champion[ cham-pee-uhn ] noun 1. a person who has defeated all opponents in a competition or series of competitions, so as to hold first place: the heavyweight boxing champion. So a high school state champion must be first place out of the people in high schools in the defined territory (Indiana) By logic of classed wrestling you could win an Indiana State title and call yourself a classed National champion because in the Indiana class you are the best in the country Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fabio Jr. Posted March 4, 2014 Share Posted March 4, 2014 Thanks man. Really clears things up...big question though can I at least consider my self a state placer? I am not sure if you watched my match and if that didn't happen I will have to toss my medals and brackets.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Madtownxwrestler Posted March 4, 2014 Share Posted March 4, 2014 Thanks man. Really clears things up...big question though can I at least consider my self a state placer? I am not sure if you watched my match and if that didn't happen I will have to toss my medals and brackets.... Don't drop to y2's level of snide comments. Yes you are a state placer since you did it in a single class state. In Ohio they will say your 2014 106 pound division 1 state champion. In Indiana your 2014 106 pound state champion. You can't have a STATE champion at one weight when there are three division Champions Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fabio Jr. Posted March 4, 2014 Share Posted March 4, 2014 SO you will be the one to tell guys like David Taylor, Brent Metcalf, Kyle Dake, they are not really state champions? Also by your definition they are not really National Champions either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KarlHungus Posted March 4, 2014 Share Posted March 4, 2014 SO you will be the one to tell guys like David Taylor, Brent Metcalf, Kyle Dake, they are not really state champions? Also by your definition they are not really National Champions either. Who are those puds? Probably didn't even win in the big school division. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MD92 Posted March 4, 2014 Share Posted March 4, 2014 Even if it were 100% the IHSAA isn't going to listen to the IHSWCA. Most likely because of the past history of IHSWCA presidents that are liars and shady people. Stay classy! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ENoblewrestling Posted March 4, 2014 Share Posted March 4, 2014 Just curious, when was this survey that you continue to reference done? it was with-in the last five years, probably 2-3 years ago. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wrestling Scholar Posted March 4, 2014 Share Posted March 4, 2014 Just so no one is confused state[ steyt ] 7. a politically unified people occupying a definite territory champion[ cham-pee-uhn ] noun 1. a person who has defeated all opponents in a competition or series of competitions, so as to hold first place: the heavyweight boxing champion. So a high school state champion must be first place out of the people in high schools in the defined territory (Indiana) By logic of classed wrestling you could win an Indiana State title and call yourself a classed National champion because in the Indiana class you are the best in the country Now your getting into definitions. I know this might blow your mind Madtownx, but could you consider the fact that some states have defined their territories by school population levels. In Ohio, they defined their territories into three different territories or (evil word) classifications. Also the political/state sports associations have defined a state champion is a person who wins the championship within the defined population levels. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Madtownxwrestler Posted March 4, 2014 Share Posted March 4, 2014 Now your getting into definitions. I know this might blow your mind Madtownx, but could you consider the fact that some states have defined their territories by school population levels. In Ohio, they defined their territories into three different territories or (evil word) classifications. Also the political/state sports associations have defined a state champion is a person who wins the championship within the defined population levels. They can divide it however they want but until they split the state and rename said territories. Ohio is one state. If there are more than one tournaments for the same weight it is a division title SO you will be the one to tell guys like David Taylor, Brent Metcalf, Kyle Dake, they are not really state champions? Also by your definition they are not really National Champions either. Once again. Choosing the college you attend is much different than going to the high school in your area. If you are good enough to win a D1 title them you don't wrestle D3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unknown Caller Posted March 4, 2014 Share Posted March 4, 2014 Okay, is it just me or does the title of this thread (Let's not ruin the gift) seem like the inscription on a Jonas Brothers purity ring? +10 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Y2CJ41 Posted March 4, 2014 Share Posted March 4, 2014 Once again. Choosing the college you attend is much different than going to the high school in your area. If you are good enough to win a D1 title them you don't wrestle D3 But they aren't true national champions due to six different divisions in college. There are always instances of a lower division wrestler beating a top DI guy throughout the year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wrestling Scholar Posted March 4, 2014 Share Posted March 4, 2014 Having more tan 10-20% of the coaches in the state supporting a move to class wrestling would probably help too. Just because a very vocal minority (again somewhere between 10 and 20% of the coaches last time it was surveyed...I don't have the exact numbers) say they want something doesn't mean it's going to happen. Hell something like 85% said duals were the best way to determine the team champ and we see where that got us. I doubt they care what 10 guys on indianamat think. I think its ineteresting we hear things how great our one class is and that a alledgedly super majority of 80%to 90% dont want to change anything, and that class wrestling will hurt or kill Indiana wrestling. As an experiment, I set up a thread in my home state's wrestling forum describing the pros of having one class. Note my home state, Kansas has had four classes for over 40 years. A majority of responses were that having one class would be terrible and that it would kill wrestling and really punish the small schools, that participation would dwindle and some people wouldnt even attend the state tournament. I think there's some pros and cons to both sides of the argument, but the interesting thing that people become so ingrained in the current system that they've grown up and experienced, that any new idea or concept is so totally foreign that they cant even consider that there might be some donwfalls or negatives to their current system. People who grew up with Class wrestling think its the best thing since sliced bread. One state tournament states think they're way ahead of the curve. The reallity is your perception is what it is from where you were born. Say MadtownXwrestler was born in Madison, Iowa instead of Madison, IN. His tag would be the same but he would post on the Iowa forum how good Iowa wrestling is, and states like Indiana suck because they don't class wrestling. Of course he would still use horrible mathematical arguments to make his point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldGoatGrappler Posted March 4, 2014 Share Posted March 4, 2014 Maybe the International Olympic Committee (IOC) and International Federation of Associated Wrestling Styles (FILA) should implement classing? Maybe then the wrestlers from Azerbaijan (pop. 9 million) would then have a chance to win an Olympic Gold medal... oh, wait they just won two (2) freestyle gold medals (out of 7) at the last "classless" Olympics... how could that be? hmm... Our great country also won two (2) and, in case you haven't been keeping up, we have a population of 314 million. The situation in the last Olympics for Greco-Roman is also interesting. Iran has 77 million people and won 3 of 7 gold medals... USA zero. Don't you guys get it? Championships are won by those (Countries, States, Communities, Organizations, Schools) who focus on it. It's what the community focuses on that will make it successful (EMD, Perry, Yorktown, Franklin, Delta back in the day, and Carmel very soon). If you don't like losing, build a program. It takes time, dedication, hard work, commitment, courage, buy-in, grit, determination, and luck). Don't take the easy way out by creating more prizes. In the USA we wrestle folkstyle / high-school / collegiate whatever you want to call it - we are the only ones in the world who wrestle our form of wrestling. We focus on it. If there was our form of wrestling in the Olympics we would dominate, but there's not. So the countries that focus on freestyle and Greco are the ones who dominate. I've been fortunate enough to see both classed and unclassed systems in place. I grew up in classed Wisconsin and we had this little town by the name of Mineral Point - they were one of the "small" schools, but year after year they'd produce top quality state champion wrestlers. Many years, their kids could beat the snot out of the big school kids but never got the chance. I spent a long time in Nevada (3x state championship official). We had 4 classes in Nevada for most sports, but wrestling they put the 1A/2A small schools together, which gave us 3 classes. A little town by the name of Battle Mountain would smack people around even though they were only a 2A school at the time. In the beginning of the classed system they would have all three championships in different locations (in a high school gym). Now they do it all together on three (3) mats in an events center. One year they tried a "Super" State where all of the winners from the classed championships got to wrestle it out for the overall champion... it didn't work. The big school coaches got upset that the little school kids were winning all the super state medals, so it only lasted a year. It was also confusing as when a kid said "I'm the State Champ", are you the State Champ of just one of the classes or the Super State? I liked the Super State and it is comparable to what we luckily have here in Indiana (one state champ per weight class) - although you had 2 other guys at each weight-class walking around saying they were the State Champ even though they got beat by the Super State winner. That, I didn't like. Eight years ago I moved to Indiana. Not yet having any experience with Indiana wrestling, I saw that the State Championships were being held at Conseco so I grabbed my son and we headed down. I saw that the finals were scheduled for like 7:30 PM, so I figured we'd get there about 6:45 to enjoy the show... you can just imagine my surprise the moment I walked through the entry -- and I bet you can also guess where we got to sit (wish I would have had some nose-plugs with me). I'll NEVER forget that moment the rest of my life... I'd been to many a state championships, but nothing like that ever before. When they turned off the lights and went through the intros etc. the excitement was incredible and something I never want to miss ever again (haven't yet, thank God). Some of you really don't understand what a very special precious gift our classless system is, if you did - you would protect it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Y2CJ41 Posted March 4, 2014 Share Posted March 4, 2014 Maybe the International Olympic Committee (IOC) and International Federation of Associated Wrestling Styles (FILA) should implement classing? Maybe then the wrestlers from Azerbaijan (pop. 9 million) would then have a chance to win an Olympic Gold medal... oh, wait they just won two (2) freestyle gold medals (out of 7) at the last "classless" Olympics... how could that be? hmm... Our great country also won two (2) and, in case you haven't been keeping up, we have a population of 314 million. The situation in the last Olympics for Greco-Roman is also interesting. Iran has 77 million people and won 3 of 7 gold medals... USA zero. Will your next statement be wanting 65 classes so everyone gets a ribbon? There is a big difference between world and olympic championships and state championships. Don't you guys get it? Championships are won by those (Countries, States, Communities, Organizations, Schools) who focus on it. It's what the community focuses on that will make it successful (EMD, Perry, Yorktown, Franklin, Delta back in the day, and Carmel very soon). If you don't like losing, build a program. It takes time, dedication, hard work, commitment, courage, buy-in, grit, determination, and luck). Don't take the easy way out by creating more prizes. Are you hinting that teams like St. Paris Graham and Delta in Ohio don't work hard or have dedication? In the USA we wrestle folkstyle / high-school / collegiate whatever you want to call it - we are the only ones in the world who wrestle our form of wrestling. We focus on it. If there was our form of wrestling in the Olympics we would dominate, but there's not. So the countries that focus on freestyle and Greco are the ones who dominate. I've been fortunate enough to see both classed and unclassed systems in place. I grew up in classed Wisconsin and we had this little town by the name of Mineral Point - they were one of the "small" schools, but year after year they'd produce top quality state champion wrestlers. Many years, their kids could beat the snot out of the big school kids but never got the chance. I spent a long time in Nevada (3x state championship official). We had 4 classes in Nevada for most sports, but wrestling they put the 1A/2A small schools together, which gave us 3 classes. A little town by the name of Battle Mountain would smack people around even though they were only a 2A school at the time. In the beginning of the classed system they would have all three championships in different locations (in a high school gym). Now they do it all together on three (3) mats in an events center. One year they tried a "Super" State where all of the winners from the classed championships got to wrestle it out for the overall champion... it didn't work. The big school coaches got upset that the little school kids were winning all the super state medals, so it only lasted a year. It was also confusing as when a kid said "I'm the State Champ", are you the State Champ of just one of the classes or the Super State? I liked the Super State and it is comparable to what we luckily have here in Indiana (one state champ per weight class) - although you had 2 other guys at each weight-class walking around saying they were the State Champ even though they got beat by the Super State winner. That, I didn't like. Eight years ago I moved to Indiana. Not yet having any experience with Indiana wrestling, I saw that the State Championships were being held at Conseco so I grabbed my son and we headed down. I saw that the finals were scheduled for like 7:30 PM, so I figured we'd get there about 6:45 to enjoy the show... you can just imagine my surprise the moment I walked through the entry -- and I bet you can also guess where we got to sit (wish I would have had some nose-plugs with me). I'll NEVER forget that moment the rest of my life... I'd been to many a state championships, but nothing like that ever before. When they turned off the lights and went through the intros etc. the excitement was incredible and something I never want to miss ever again (haven't yet, thank God). Some of you really don't understand what a very special precious gift our classless system is, if you did - you would protect it. I would much rather our state become like Wisconsin who has had over 80 NCAA All-Americans in the past 50 years. It seems they are doing something right there as a state especially when Indiana has almost half as many in that time span. My guess is Indiana wouldn't fall into a Nevada category due to our location between many of wrestling's hotbeds. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mtv2112 Posted March 4, 2014 Share Posted March 4, 2014 Maybe the International Olympic Committee (IOC) and International Federation of Associated Wrestling Styles (FILA) should implement classing? Maybe then the wrestlers from Azerbaijan (pop. 9 million) would then have a chance to win an Olympic Gold medal... oh, wait they just won two (2) freestyle gold medals (out of 7) at the last "classless" Olympics... how could that be? hmm... Our great country also won two (2) and, in case you haven't been keeping up, we have a population of 314 million. The situation in the last Olympics for Greco-Roman is also interesting. Iran has 77 million people and won 3 of 7 gold medals... USA zero. For me, this argument doesn't hold water. Those countries noted are not losing focus or resources on athletes playing baseball, basketball, football, etc. We would probably be winning more medals if the top athletes in the US focused on wrestling first. Thinly spread resources are a potential issue with small schools. Whether the resource is money, facilities, time, or the number of available athletes. Small schools likely have a much high incidence of athletes playing multiple sports and therefore not as likely to focus on wrestling year round. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wrestling Scholar Posted March 4, 2014 Share Posted March 4, 2014 Maybe the International Olympic Committee (IOC) and International Federation of Associated Wrestling Styles (FILA) should implement classing? Maybe then the wrestlers from Azerbaijan (pop. 9 million) would then have a chance to win an Olympic Gold medal... oh, wait they just won two (2) freestyle gold medals (out of 7) at the last "classless" Olympics... how could that be? hmm... Our great country also won two (2) and, in case you haven't been keeping up, we have a population of 314 million. The situation in the last Olympics for Greco-Roman is also interesting. Iran has 77 million people and won 3 of 7 gold medals... USA zero. Iran's and Azerbaijan's success is a silly analolgy to our great debate over class wrestling. And also, I doubt anybody knows, but these countries might have class wrestling at their youth levels. Havent you ever heard of the Tehran AAA Class? They do a little better than the parochial Ayatola Islamic class B Division. The Iron Sheik won that division, nobody ever questioned his state sponsored championship. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bonehead63 Posted March 6, 2014 Share Posted March 6, 2014 This talk about class wrestling is absurd. I cannot understand the notion that ANY wrestler, coach, parent , or fan would even entertain the thought to promote Class wrestling. Wrestling format in Indiana High School should remain intact! 1 Champion per weight class....PERIOD!! Of all sports in this world, Wrestling is as Equal an opportunity for both athletes as can possibly be! Dont give me the garbage about small schools not having the opportunity so lets give out something for nothing! You are the same size, and its 1 on 1 for crying out loud!!!!!If you want it, work for it! Class wrestling would ruin the best event the IHSAA puts on each year. You want to do class dual wrestling, then go ahead. Dont mess with perfection, or near perfection, wrestlebacks would be nice! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fabio Jr. Posted March 6, 2014 Share Posted March 6, 2014 if thats the case why are there not more small school state placers? or at least a proportional amount compared to qualifiers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Madtownxwrestler Posted March 6, 2014 Share Posted March 6, 2014 For me, this argument doesn't hold water. Those countries noted are not losing focus or resources on athletes playing baseball, basketball, football, etc. We would probably be winning more medals if the top athletes in the US focused on wrestling first. Thinly spread resources are a potential issue with small schools. Whether the resource is money, facilities, time, or the number of available athletes. Small schools likely have a much high incidence of athletes playing multiple sports and therefore not as likely to focus on wrestling year round. once again that comes down to what your community focuses their efforts on in our community we get two state placers and it hits the newspaper behind the 5th grade girls basketball tournament absolutely nothing will change this if madison wrestling won the 2A team title when we arrived back to the school we would be greeted by a hand full of family members and maybe a fire truck that one of the coaches would have to call in a favor to get done since no one else in the town would be paying attention to whether we won or lost probably would have selectively not heard any announcement about it in the first place Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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