KarlHungus Posted February 26, 2014 Share Posted February 26, 2014 you didnt treat it like an outlier so stop acting smart all you did was use it for your agenda even using it as a statistician would it would still benefit the small schools but you are using it to benefit the large schools once again your agenda not the truth Huh. You are confusing Joe and I. Personally, I would through out the outlier but I am no statistician. If you took the temperature of 10 items in your kitchen and came up with an average of 250 degrees is that good statistics? Or might the oven blazing at 500 degrees be an outlier, thus skewing the rest of the data? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KarlHungus Posted February 26, 2014 Share Posted February 26, 2014 im going to say yes they are less proud. i wont argue that you have to be talented to win a D3 or D2 title but ask yourself how many of the D2 champs watch the D1 ncaa wrestling tournament and how many watch the D3 tournament that alone will show that they know where the best of the best are and that (for the most part) they werent part of that Since when did not facing the best make anyone more or less proud of their accomplishments? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hornet Posted February 26, 2014 Share Posted February 26, 2014 I've been against the idea of a classed individual tournament for a long time, but I have to say that after seeing the stats and the arguments made on this topic I'm being more open minded to the idea. I coach a small 1A school and I can tell you that our school has to literally pick which sport(s) they want to be competitive in, I believe other 1A programs are the same way. One reason we don't have football is because if we did there would be no kids playing tennis, cross-country, or soccer. Also, it is not uncommon for me to hear other small team coaches complain about trying to compete with Basketball because their school wants all the "talent" on the court (to win a 1A title). If there was a bigger carrot dangling out there for 1A schools they might get more support for wrestling from the school. You have to admit that this topic is an interesting concept that just might give 1A wrestlers more motivation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Madtownxwrestler Posted February 26, 2014 Share Posted February 26, 2014 Since when did not facing the best make anyone more or less proud of their accomplishments? since the beginning of time. That is why we have competition. I once wrestled in a world tournament in Oklahoma and there were three guys in my bracket. I won one match and am now a world runner up. It's not even a joke I really am by definition a world runner up. Should I be proud of this? And y2 I never said they were not proud to be a d2 champ. They should be proud because they had to work hard and go through many opponent to get there but if they think they should be more proud than the d1 guys they are either stupid or they beat the d1 champ that year Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Y2CJ41 Posted February 26, 2014 Share Posted February 26, 2014 since the beginning of time. That is why we have competition. I once wrestled in a world tournament in Oklahoma and there were three guys in my bracket. I won one match and am now a world runner up. It's not even a joke I really am by definition a world runner up. Should I be proud of this? And y2 I never said they were not proud to be a d2 champ. They should be proud because they had to work hard and go through many opponent to get there but if they think they should be more proud than the d1 guys they are either stupid or they beat the d1 champ that year I heard most D2 and D3 kids just throw their awards in the trash after they get them. If you want a nice NCAA plaque just check the garbage after D2 or D3 nationals. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrecoCoach Posted February 26, 2014 Share Posted February 26, 2014 im going to say yes they are less proud. i wont argue that you have to be talented to win a D3 or D2 title but ask yourself how many of the D2 champs watch the D1 ncaa wrestling tournament and how many watch the D3 tournament that alone will show that they know where the best of the best are and that (for the most part) they werent part of that One big difference between high school and college "classes" is that college kids chose their school knowing what division it is in. DII and DIII college kids said to themselves, "That's the competition level I want to compete in." I doubt DII national champs are sad that they didn't win DI nationals. High school kids, on the other hand, don't have anywhere near that same type of choice. Unless they live near a large and successful private school, they are going to go to their local public school and have to accept whatever size it is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Madtownxwrestler Posted February 26, 2014 Share Posted February 26, 2014 I heard most D2 and D3 kids just throw their awards in the trash after they get them. If you want a nice NCAA plaque just check the garbage after D2 or D3 nationals. We know you only hear what you want to. Let me put it like this if you coach your team to a team state title in Indiana (of which you can be proud of) and you don't want to challenge the number one team in the nation or at least accept they are better than you, then Y2 you are ignorant. Is that a fair assumption? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Madtownxwrestler Posted February 26, 2014 Share Posted February 26, 2014 One big difference between high school and college "classes" is that college kids chose their school knowing what division it is in. DII and DIII college kids said to themselves, "That's the competition level I want to compete in." I doubt DII national champs are sad that they didn't win DI nationals. High school kids, on the other hand, don't have anywhere near that same type of choice. Unless they live near a large and successful private school, they are going to go to their local public school and have to accept whatever size it is. So you're saying they choose to not win a d1 title even though they can or they know they aren't good enough for that level of competition? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrecoCoach Posted February 26, 2014 Share Posted February 26, 2014 So you're saying they choose to not win a d1 title even though they can or they know they aren't good enough for that level of competition? It'll be different for each kid, but either of those could be accurate along with many other ways to look at it. For example, maybe a kid struggles in classes and chooses to go to a DIII school where he can wrestle and have more time to study plus more individual attention from professors. Ultimately, it's their choice which division to compete in. High schoolers don't normally get that choice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Galagore Posted February 26, 2014 Share Posted February 26, 2014 One thing that this thread has done for me is affirm that our mathematics education should be centered around statistics, not calculus. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fabio Jr. Posted February 26, 2014 Share Posted February 26, 2014 since the beginning of time. That is why we have competition. I once wrestled in a world tournament in Oklahoma and there were three guys in my bracket. I won one match and am now a world runner up. It's not even a joke I really am by definition a world runner up. Should I be proud of this? And y2 I never said they were not proud to be a d2 champ. They should be proud because they had to work hard and go through many opponent to get there but if they think they should be more proud than the d1 guys they are either stupid or they beat the d1 champ that year Pride is subjective thing. Only I can determine how proud I am of my accomplishments. To sit here and say that kids are not proud of what they have done be it win a national title or just complete 5 hard years of college wrestling is what is ignorant. I went to a small D2 school and was an average to below average wrestler. I am PROUD of what I accomplished, I made it through the meat grinder of competing for 5 years while maintaining a job, staying up on course work, and earning my degree. I knew going in to my freshman year I was probably not the best and that my goal was to make it to the end to say I did it. I didn't face the best...but I am damn proud of what I accomplished. So call me stupid..because I am as proud if not more so than those guys who (ALSO) reached their goals. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wrestling Scholar Posted February 26, 2014 Share Posted February 26, 2014 http://mwolverine.com/Top_Wrestling_States.html check this out this is only 1961 to 2011 but the numbers will still ring true if you look where indiana is on the list every state below them i tallied the numbers for states that have classes they have 234 individuals that reach AA for a combined 396 top 8 finishes in D1 NCAAs that was 24 states combined so yea the majority of classed states dont do well nationally MadTownx, I did some data crunching on your chart, and here's a more realisitic statistical look at the data and I think more relevant than just the states below Indiana. 40 states with class wrestling had 3,070 all americans or an average of 77. 9 states with one class had 524 all-amerians or an average of 58. ( I included Texas in this group as they had one class in time period) I think 28 all-americans came from foreign countries. So based on the data you provided, class wrestling states on average produce more all-americans. Obviously some flaws with this analsysis, but much more sound than your conclusion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Salinas Posted February 26, 2014 Author Share Posted February 26, 2014 Unfortunately this topic morphed into the exact same debate that it always does. The purpose of my original post that started this entire thing was to highlight the fact that we have an awesome finals experience. Looking at other states, classed systems has a detrimental effect on the finals experience/atmosphere as 2 or 3 finals matches are being run simultaneously. There are lots of videos of kids winning titles while half the gym is focused on another match and nobody seems to notice. No matter where your lie on the class or do not class spectrum, it appears to be 100% undeniable that you would fundamentally change the finals experience that we all have grown to love. Lets not change the one thing that is 100% unique to indiana wrestling- which is our finals presentation. I believe it is the best in the country. Arguing that we need to class wrestling to produce more AAs in NCAA is absolutely ridiculous. Who cares where we are in relation to other states, or if some clown has us as a "top tier" wrestling state" on flowrestling message boards? Why does that matter? Sure, we all want indiana wrestling to be great-as it already is! Lets focus on the kids in our state right now by presenting them an opportunity to wrestle in front of 11k fans, under the lights, with the 100% of the crowd's focus. Which is an opportunity not many other states offer. Classing wrestling to produce more AAs in the NCAA is a dumb argument. The best college football team is not determined by how many NFL pro bowlers they produce, so arguing the best wrestling state by # of NCAA AAs is just as absurd. Indiana HS wrestling is great. It provides opportunities for kids to compete and grow up as young men, gives them scholarship opportunities, and most kids who are hell bent on making it to state make it. It also gives 28 kids the opportunity of a lifetime to wrestle under the lights and receive their awards with no other distractions going on. If its not broke, dont fix it. -ss Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KarlHungus Posted February 26, 2014 Share Posted February 26, 2014 Pride is subjective thing. Only I can determine how proud I am of my accomplishments. To sit here and say that kids are not proud of what they have done be it win a national title or just complete 5 hard years of college wrestling is what is ignorant. I went to a small D2 school and was an average to below average wrestler. I am PROUD of what I accomplished, I made it through the meat grinder of competing for 5 years while maintaining a job, staying up on course work, and earning my degree. I knew going in to my freshman year I was probably not the best and that my goal was to make it to the end to say I did it. I didn't face the best...but I am damn proud of what I accomplished. So call me stupid..because I am as proud if not more so than those guys who (ALSO) reached their goals. Your silly Fab, anyone who goes D1 clearly has more pride because they wrestled D1. It's science.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snoopy Posted February 26, 2014 Share Posted February 26, 2014 I'm sure Bill Sharpe, who I really respect, will be glad to know the talent pool is as deep at Jimtown as Penn. Who tells my parents that their son must skip church to go iswa to be good. If I tell the kids no football or baseball. Most kids will not wrestle. How does encouraging schools with small enrollments or no wrestling room to drop the sport. That would really help. Remember there are ihsaa a a board members from 1A schools. Another silly thought a wrestler might choose a DII or DIII for educational values. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Madtownxwrestler Posted February 26, 2014 Share Posted February 26, 2014 MadTownx, I did some data crunching on your chart, and here's a more realisitic statistical look at the data and I think more relevant than just the states below Indiana. 40 states with class wrestling had 3,070 all americans or an average of 77. 9 states with one class had 524 all-amerians or an average of 58. ( I included Texas in this group as they had one class in time period) I think 28 all-americans came from foreign countries. So based on the data you provided, class wrestling states on average produce more all-americans. Obviously some flaws with this analsysis, but much more sound than your conclusion. States like penn ams Ohio are outliers and shouldn't be counted lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Y2CJ41 Posted February 26, 2014 Share Posted February 26, 2014 http://mwolverine.com/Top_Wrestling_States.html check this out this is only 1961 to 2011 but the numbers will still ring true if you look where indiana is on the list every state below them i tallied the numbers for states that have classes they have 234 individuals that reach AA for a combined 396 top 8 finishes in D1 NCAAs that was 24 states combined so yea the majority of classed states dont do well nationally A majority of classless states do poorly also Texas, Delaware, Kentucky, Hawaii, Connecticut and Vermont are all 16-49 in terms of AA's produced by a state. There are only 2 states with classless wrestling in the top 15. Thus a MAJORITY( 7 vs. 2 ) are doing "well." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wrestling Scholar Posted February 26, 2014 Share Posted February 26, 2014 A majority of classless states do poorly also Texas, Delaware, Kentucky, Hawaii, Connecticut and Vermont are all 16-49 in terms of AA's produced by a state. There are only 2 states with classless wrestling in the top 15. Thus a MAJORITY( 7 vs. 2 ) are doing "well." A big factor on states doing well in producing good wrestlers has a lot more to do with climate than class wrestling. You have to admit in the sun belt, wrestling is not as attractive sport. Y2 do you some crazy data showing each states average temperature with the ratio of all-americans it creates. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Madtownxwrestler Posted February 27, 2014 Share Posted February 27, 2014 Someone mentioned it earlier. The way everyone can be happy is a point spot. Say if you wrestle up one class you start the match with 2 points and if you move up two classes you start with 5 points. This way it is "fair" for the kids that came from a small school and we still get our one true state champion. I think that is a fair compromise. Although it won't hand out more medals it will give the guys from small schools an even shake even though I don't understand how one guy standing across from one guy that both weigh the same yet one of them had an advantage because his school is bigger. I've never ever seen someone go out to help another wrestler win a match. Guess if we ever implement tag team wrestling that should definitely be classed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snoopy Posted February 27, 2014 Share Posted February 27, 2014 More fire! Seems like I've heard of states going two classes. Public and private (parochial and charter). Not that I want it, but curious. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Madtownxwrestler Posted February 27, 2014 Share Posted February 27, 2014 I wonder how many states have different classes for wrestling as oppose to basketball and football. After looking at the list of stays and classes it seems as many states might have a standard class system that applies to all sports Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KarlHungus Posted February 27, 2014 Share Posted February 27, 2014 Illinois has eight classes for football i believe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ENoblewrestling Posted February 27, 2014 Share Posted February 27, 2014 Couple of thoughts- We have this debate every year. In the end it doesn't matter what the coaches want, what Y2 wants, or what anyone wants. In the end it is up to the IHSAA. They will do what they want. If they wanted class wrestling we would have it. If they continue to not want it we won't. I think we should also note that as far as coaches go in the state the last time it was surveyed the coaches voted that a 1 class tournament was the way to go by a very large margin (80-90%). If we were to ever have class wrestling do you think that it would matter that the smaller school kids would be seen as winning a "lesser tournament"? We have finished second and first at the first two class team states. We have received a ton of praise, and are viewed as being state champs. We are proud as hell of our accomplishments. When you look at the message board though there is much more discussion about the bigger classes. Look at the qualifying thread from this years state. Class 3A has 6 pages worth of discussion, class 1A has 2 pages. Getting to team state at any class is a huge deal, winning it was awesome, we celebrate it like any other team would a championship (so no Y2 we didn't throw our titles away), but at the same time it is noticeable that the other classes matches and titles are viewed as being bigger, and they should be in terms of a discussion of who is the best team overall. Those teams are better than we are, and in a team competition the size of the school makes a difference. Individually though I would have a hard time with my guys competing in what would be viewed as a lesser tournament. I think it would be tough for me to have my guys that can make it to state in a 1 class tournament, and tell them that because they go to Churubusco they are not good enough to compete with the individuals from the big schools. I'm just curious what others would think of this. As far as colleges go, do you think that competing at the small school level would hurt the kids that are actually good enough for D1 or D2 to get recruited based on the fact that they were at small schools (I know it didn't hurt Steiber)? One final thought, I know that the wrestlers who make it to semi-state for us get a ton of letters from various D2, and D3 schools around the midwest. I would say colleges are smart enough to know that good wrestlers make it to semi-state, and don't just recruit state qualifiers, but semi-state as well. Do we really need to class the tournament to get our guys recruited? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fearless fly Posted February 27, 2014 Share Posted February 27, 2014 First, as I have stated many times, I am only for a two class tournament. These statistics are obviously based on a three class event. The cutoff for a two-class system would be around 700 students currently. In a 2A environment it would be very much the same as it is now. The 1A level in the first five years would have good matches in the semis and finals, but past that you would probably see lesser quality wrestling. The thing is, you would probably see an increase in the quality within five to ten years. What would happen at the small school level would be more kids going to camps, clinics, RTCs, etc with the added exposure. It would have a trickle down effect as more kids would see others having success and want to join them so they would put in the work. I saw this happen at Garrett when we started getting state qualifiers as the numbers in the middle school grew almost overnight. we have no class yet a small school experiences success...inconceivable ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Y2CJ41 Posted February 28, 2014 Share Posted February 28, 2014 Ohio had 10,989 attendees for the first round of their watered down state finals. There are people on their forums asking for tickets....must be rough in a watered down tournament without true champions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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