Lets not ruin the gift

[Madtownxwrestler]

you guys crack me up.    the truth isnt a scare tactic.  and you continue to say that putting EMD in the correct position makes the numbers inaccurate when you continue to want to put the tiny school that is good into the large school numbers to help your cause.  funny how its only a good idea if it helps your cause    to heck with it actually is the proper stats

[bog190]

you guys crack me up.    the truth isnt a scare tactic.  and you continue to say that putting EMD in the correct position makes the numbers inaccurate when you continue to want to put the tiny school that is good into the large school numbers to help your cause.  funny how its only a good idea if it helps your cause    to heck with it actually is the proper stats

 

The truth?  So which classed state has their state finals in a high school gym?

[Y2CJ41]

you guys crack me up.    the truth isnt a scare tactic.  and you continue to say that putting EMD in the correct position makes the numbers inaccurate when you continue to want to put the tiny school that is good into the large school numbers to help your cause.  funny how its only a good idea if it helps your cause    to heck with it actually is the proper stats

Mater Dei is a HUGE outlier, they had almost as many state qualifiers as the rest of 1A schools combined.

 

State could easily be held at Banker's Life if it were classed. They could put down two to four more mats and be fine.

[KarlHungus]

you guys crack me up.    the truth isnt a scare tactic.  and you continue to say that putting EMD in the correct position makes the numbers inaccurate when you continue to want to put the tiny school that is good into the large school numbers to help your cause.  funny how its only a good idea if it helps your cause    to heck with it actually is the proper stats

 

You have no tangible evidence to say that a classed state finals would be moved to a high school.  Oregon increased attendance when adding classes.  It's just hyperbole for you say otherwise.

 

Look up the word outlier at what real statisticians do with them.

[Fabio Jr.]

This is bringing up bad memories of Elementary Statictics in college and Cat boxes...

[Wrestling Scholar]

I see NJ referenced as successful unclassed state .  But lets take a look at some other states that are classed and are very successful.  Iowa has 3 Classes and Oklahoma has 4.    Both states have produced more all-Americans than Indiana and have smaller populations.  We could throw Minnesota into this argument also.  There could be various contributors to their success, but maybe class wrestling has something to do with it.  And I here people reference the participation ribbon sissification of our country that is destroying the youth of America.  Class wrestling has been going on for a long time in these to the extent of 40 to 50 years depending on which state you look at.

 

MCKAJC- I see you mention that the Illinois wrestling community dislikes class wrestling, ok maybe.  I'll reference my experience with the Ohio wresltling community.  I lived there 5 years and my older son wrestled in the 2A middle class and in the same county where the Stiebers wrestled.  I would say most Ohioans think they have the best system in the country and that they scoff at Indiana wrestling.  I never heard anybody complain about class wrestling there.  I do have to admit the Ohians are a little arrogant there wrestling, but they back it up. 

 

My opinion is people become indoctrinated to what they have experienced and grown up with and not open to new concepts.  Look at the defense of one class wrestling just in this post to see an example of it.    I see similar fervor from my home state Kansas, but in the defense of class wrestling.  Note KS has four classes and half the population of IN.    I totally admit its way watered down and presents its own set of problems that they have to hold it at 3 different locations and officiating is criticized due to spreading the good officials over 4 tournaments.    But my point is there is a solid middle ground and valid points to each system. Maybe progressive and take the benefits of both systems.

[Madtownxwrestler]

You have no tangible evidence to say that a classed state finals would be moved to a high school.  Oregon increased attendance when adding classes.  It's just hyperbole for you say otherwise.

 

Look up the word outlier at what real statisticians do with them.

 

straight from the website

 

ASAA/FIRST NATIONAL BANK ALASKA

2014 4A WRESTLING STATE CHAMPIONSHIPS

February 7-8, 2014

Bartlett High School – Anchorage

Hosted by: ASAA and Bartlett High School

 

so you propose to fix the outlier problem of MD having an obscure number from the average is to put them with the larges schools????  because that is exactly what Y2 did  maybe Cathedral should be thrown out too because im sure that they are way off of the average for large schools  i know this wont work because it doesnt fit your agenda 

[Madtownxwrestler]

I see NJ referenced as successful unclassed state .  But lets take a look at some other states that are classed and are very successful.  Iowa has 3 Classes and Oklahoma has 4.    Both states have produced more all-Americans than Indiana and have smaller populations.  We could throw Minnesota into this argument also.  There could be various contributors to their success, but maybe class wrestling has something to do with it.  And I here people reference the participation ribbon sissification of our country that is destroying the youth of America.  Class wrestling has been going on for a long time in these to the extent of 40 to 50 years depending on which state you look at.

 

MCKAJC- I see you mention that the Illinois wrestling community dislikes class wrestling, ok maybe.  I'll reference my experience with the Ohio wresltling community.  I lived there 5 years and my older son wrestled in the 2A middle class and in the same county where the Stiebers wrestled.  I would say most Ohioans think they have the best system in the country and that they scoff at Indiana wrestling.  I never heard anybody complain about class wrestling there.  I do have to admit the Ohians are a little arrogant there wrestling, but they back it up. 

 

My opinion is people become indoctrinated to what they have experienced and grown up with and not open to new concepts.  Look at the defense of one class wrestling just in this post to see an example of it.    I see similar fervor from my home state Kansas, but in the defense of class wrestling.  Note KS has four classes and half the population of IN.    I totally admit its way watered down and presents its own set of problems that they have to hold it at 3 different locations and officiating is criticized due to spreading the good officials over 4 tournaments.    But my point is there is a solid middle ground and valid points to each system. Maybe progressive and take the benefits of both systems.

 

do you really believe this  there are at least 5 classed states that are terrible nationally for every one classed state that is good nationally

[bog190]

straight from the website

 

ASAA/FIRST NATIONAL BANK ALASKA

2014 4A WRESTLING STATE CHAMPIONSHIPS

February 7-8, 2014

Bartlett High School – Anchorage

Hosted by: ASAA and Bartlett High School

 

so you propose to fix the outlier problem of MD having an obscure number from the average is to put them with the larges schools????  because that is exactly what Y2 did  maybe Cathedral should be thrown out too because im sure that they are way off of the average for large schools  i know this wont work because it doesnt fit your agenda

 

Had to dig pretty deep there, didn't you.  Alaska?  Is that the only one you could find?

[Y2CJ41]

straight from the website

 

ASAA/FIRST NATIONAL BANK ALASKA

2014 4A WRESTLING STATE CHAMPIONSHIPS

February 7-8, 2014

Bartlett High School – Anchorage

Hosted by: ASAA and Bartlett High School

 

so you propose to fix the outlier problem of MD having an obscure number from the average is to put them with the larges schools????  because that is exactly what Y2 did  maybe Cathedral should be thrown out too because im sure that they are way off of the average for large schools  i know this wont work because it doesnt fit your agenda 

After this winter, I really dread becoming like Alaska.

 

You can throw Cathedral out and see what happens to the numbers.

[Y2CJ41]

Had to dig pretty deep there, didn't you.  Alaska?  Is that the only one you could find?

Ahhhhh we will be just like Alaska if we go to class wrestling, ahhhh run people, run now!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Wrestling Scholar]

do you really believe this  there are at least 5 classed states that are terrible nationally for every one classed state that is good nationally

 

Show me your ratio then:

 

Here's good classed states that you can argue are better Natioally than Indiana:

OH, PA, MI, MN, IA, OK, NY, WI

 

States that compete well nationally with class wrestling:

MO, NE, KS, CO, UT, VA, NC, MD, DE, FL, GA,  many western states with small population

 

Texas has one class and based on its population is terrible.

 

[base]

You're 11.5% is too high. Even if we use the average varsity wrestler per school, 9, we get 945 wrestlers in 1A.  That equals 1.2% of the varsity wrestlers in 1A qualify for the state tournament.

 

Meanwhile in 3A land with 1301 varsity wrestlers and 152 qualifying for state you get a whooping 11.6% of the varsity wrestlers in 3A going to state.

 

At the 2A level there are 1160 wrestlers with 60 qualifying for state or 5.2%.

 

This is from maligned's post

http://indianamat.com/messageboard/index.php/topic,30104.0.html

I am still trying to understand the various angles of this debate.

 

Previously someone made a pretty convincing argument that having multiclass state champions would allow more people to get on the radar of college coaches.  Had me leaning that way.  But now I am confused again -- if only 1% of class 1A and 5% of class 2A are even making it to state (not winning, just making it there) then what level of wrestling will we really be exposing to college coaches by classing and how will this spark their interest??

[Y2CJ41]

Show me your ratio then:

 

Here's good classed states that you can argue are better Natioally than Indiana:

OH, PA, MI, MN, IA, OK, NY, WI

 

States that compete well nationally with class wrestling:

MO, NE, KS, CO, UT, VA, NC, MD, DE, FL, GA,  many western states with small population

 

Texas has one class and based on its population is terrible.

 

Texas just recently went to a two class system within the last few years.  Plus as a sport Texas has only sanctioned wrestling since the 2000-2001 season.

[Y2CJ41]

I am still trying to understand the various angles of this debate.

 

Previously someone made a pretty convincing argument that having multiclass state champions would allow more people to get on the radar of college coaches.  Had me leaning that way.  But now I am confused again -- if only 1% of class 1A and 5% of class 2A are even making it to state (not winning, just making it there) then what level of wrestling will we really be exposing to college coaches by classing and how will this spark their interest??

 

First, as I have stated many times, I am only for a two class tournament. These statistics are obviously based on a three class event.  The cutoff for a two-class system would be around 700 students currently.

 

In a 2A environment it would be very much the same as it is now. The 1A level in the first five years would have good matches in the semis and finals, but past that you would probably see lesser quality wrestling. The thing is, you would probably see an increase in the quality within five to ten years.  What would happen at the small school level would be more kids going to camps, clinics, RTCs, etc with the added exposure. It would have a trickle down effect as more kids would see others having success and want to join them so they would put in the work. I saw this happen at Garrett when we started getting state qualifiers as the numbers in the middle school grew almost overnight.

[KarlHungus]

 

so you propose to fix the outlier problem of MD having an obscure number from the average is to put them with the larges schools????  because that is exactly what Y2 did  maybe Cathedral should be thrown out too because im sure that they are way off of the average for large schools  i know this wont work because it doesnt fit your agenda 

 

They (MD) see themselves as the outlier and already self segregate.  Enough with the hyperbole, you make it sound like there is a secret society thats out to class wrestling in Indiana. 

[Madtownxwrestler]

http://mwolverine.com/Top_Wrestling_States.html

 

check this out  this is only 1961 to 2011 but the numbers will still ring true

if you look where indiana is on the list  every state below them i tallied the numbers for states that have classes

they have 234 individuals that reach AA for a combined 396 top 8 finishes in D1 NCAAs

that was 24 states combined    so yea the majority of classed states dont do well nationally

[AllWrestleNoPlay]

I'm gonna throw my two cents in here, like it matters. If we went to a two-class system it could help those smaller schools produce more state qualifiers, but not necessarily. Just because you have more classes doesn't mean the quality of your wrestlers will go up. There are always gonna be good and bad wrestling schools regardless of size. My belief is that good wrestlers can suffer from bad practice partners. So if a good wrestler attends that small school, how is adding another class going to make him better? I agree that the kids that attend dominant large schools (not all large schools are dominant) have an advantage because wrestling with another state-qualifier every day is going to make you better. But the only way that small school wrestler is going to get better is by going to camps as the big school wrestlers also do. Would a two-class system make the state finals more boring? I suppose that's a possibility, but I don't think it'll go to the extreme of how other states are. Having three classes is a different story. I feel like 3 state champs with our population would be ridiculous. We're just not big enough to need that. So I can see both sides to this argument. We just have to decide whether more state qualifiers would 1) actually bring more attention to the sport or would less attention come because of multiple state champs and 2) grow an interest to build the programs of the smaller schools. Is it worth having multiple state champs so more schools can say they had state qualifiers? That's not really for me to decide. Who says the IHSAA would even listen to our opinion either way?

[Madtownxwrestler]

They (MD) see themselves as the outlier and already self segregate.  Enough with the hyperbole, you make it sound like there is a secret society thats out to class wrestling in Indiana.

 

like i said you shoot down logic because it doesnt fit your agenda  instead of changing facts because it doesnt fit what you want. either dont use this argument  or put the numbers out as they are factually. 

[TripleB]

I'm jumping in w/o reading any of the 7 pages of comments.

 

When comparing states that are better than us nationally one component that should be looked at is Freestyle/Greco. I would guess that all the states that are "better" than us also out perform us at Fargo, Freestyle Duals, Greco Duals, etc.

 

Freestyle is dead in Indiana. I remember when we'd schedule our tournament is March or April and we'd constantly have to compete w/ 3-4 other tournaments. This year was nadda, maybe one other tournament on our weekend. We can't field competitive teams for freestyle or Greco Duals. Our best skip out on Fargo, even worse our low top tier kids skip out who would greatly benefit from a week or two w/ other top talents in a training camp setting.

 

So while I get the arguments for class wrestling. I'm not sold on the quality of wrestling increasing b/c of class wrestling. Yes our kids will get more college looks, but our national performances will still lack.

 

The kiddie folkstyle circuit and $$$ has killed off freestyle and Greco in Indiana.

 

Shallow minds (no offense) that believe the only way to win a high school state title is by constantly wrestling folkstyle limits our over all depth as a state.

 

 

[Hornet]

Does "class" individual wrestling help the sport at the college level?  I have my opinion but I thought I'd throw it out there.  I had a "moment of clarity" last night while watching Iowa vs. Wisconsin on B10 network..  Would it be fair if teams like U-Indy and Wabash had to compete in the same individual tourney as Big 10 teams?  Are Div-II national champions less proud of their accomplishment because they didn't get to be on ESPN like the Div-I champs?

 

Smaller college's have the same type of competitive issues that small high schools have in relation to bigger programs.  Less of a recruiting base, lower quality facilities, less experianced coaching, smaller budget, etc..  Not trying to dog any Div-II programs, I'm just trying to make a realistic comparision vs. using another sport like Basketball. 

[KarlHungus]

like i said you shoot down logic because it doesnt fit your agenda  instead of changing facts because it doesnt fit what you want. either dont use this argument  or put the numbers out as they are factually. 

 

You didn't look up "outlier" did you?

[Madtownxwrestler]

Does "class" individual wrestling help the sport at the college level?  I have my opinion but I thought I'd throw it out there.  I had a "moment of clarity" last night while watching Iowa vs. Wisconsin on B10 network..  Would it be fair if teams like U-Indy and Wabash had to compete in the same individual tourney as Big 10 teams?  Are Div-II national champions less proud of their accomplishment because they didn't get to be on ESPN like the Div-I champs?

 

Smaller college's have the same type of competitive issues that small high schools have in relation to bigger programs.  Less of a recruiting base, lower quality facilities, less experianced coaching, smaller budget, etc..  Not trying to dog any Div-II programs, I'm just trying to make a realistic comparision vs. using another sport like Basketball.

 

im going to say yes they are less proud.  i wont argue that you have to be talented to win a D3 or D2 title  but ask yourself how many of the D2 champs watch the D1 ncaa wrestling tournament and how many watch the D3 tournament  that alone will show that they know where the best of the best are and that (for the most part) they werent part of that

[Madtownxwrestler]

You didn't look up "outlier" did you?

 

you didnt treat it like an outlier so stop acting smart    all you did was use it for your agenda  even using it as a statistician would it would still benefit the small schools  but you are using it to benefit the large schools  once again your agenda not the truth

[Y2CJ41]

im going to say yes they are less proud.  i wont argue that you have to be talented to win a D3 or D2 title  but ask yourself how many of the D2 champs watch the D1 ncaa wrestling tournament and how many watch the D3 tournament  that alone will show that they know where the best of the best are and that (for the most part) they werent part of that

It is kind of hard for a D2 or D3 wrestler to watch the other tournament due to them being the same weekend.

 

And thanks for throwing all non-DI wrestlers under the bus. Shows what type of person you really are. These kids work hard and are very proud of their accomplishments whether some bafoon like yourself recognizes it or not.