Salinas Posted February 24, 2014 Share Posted February 24, 2014 I know this has been discussed in detail here and I hate to open a can of worms, but I feel it is appropriate. Its only a matter of time before the topic comes up again. First off, congratulations to all the kids who just finished up a tough season. Every kid who stepped onto the mat and wrestled their butt off the past couple of months should be proud of what they just accomplished, regardless of their record or status. I was lucky enough to have been in attendance for the consolations and the finals this past year and they were simply amazing. Although I am a few years removed from the sport and don’t know any names of the kids and am now a ‘casual fan’, it was an awesome experience. Indiana wrestling has a gift that might be the greatest finals presentation in the country. While I could be picky and offer up some ideas to make the presentation a little bit more spectator friendly, it is fantastic overall and appears to blow other states finals presentation out of the water. The aura of the entire thing: the lights down, the spotlight, introductions, replays on the jumbotrons, the crowd of almost 11 thousand people completely focused on ONE MATCH. All of this would be ruined with class wrestling, if we were crowning two or three champions simultaneously. It would be almost impossible, too time consuming, and simply boring- if we introduced the finalists two or three times in the way that we do. We couldn’t turn down the lights, have an awards presentation, or a single spot light like we do and the crowds attention would be split between multiple matches. For example here are other states finals: Take a look at Matt Mcdonough win his 3rd HS state title in Iowa at 3A. 2 other matches going on. YAWN Illinois 1A state champs win titles while half the crowd is focused on other matches, not paying attention. Kid at 2:25 wins a title, while it sounds like the entire crowd is focused on the other mat yelling “TWOOO!” Lets watch Mr. Jaggers win his 4th state title in Ohio and the announcers even say how they feel sorry for the other kid who won a title on the other mat because nobody pays attention to him at 5:40 Announcer “Poor guy on mat #2 nobody who just won a title, nobody even knows he exists” You get the point. Bottom line is we have something special, that is our finals in our state. An opportunity for kids to wrestle in the event of a lifetime. For the record, I don’t care how many NCAA all Americans Indiana high school wrestling produces. I don’t care how many NCAA titles we take home, nor do I care if we are a “first tier wrestling state”. I don’t care about some random guys subjective rankings on flowrestling if we are in the “top 10” state in the country. So for those of you who argue and contend class wrestling will make us more competitive with the other more prestigious wrestling states, which may or may not be true. Why do we care so much where we are in relation to other states? Why do we even care how many NCAA Americans/champions we produce? Our focus should not be on future athletic accomplishments of our wrestlers, but it should be about providing them with an opportunity RIGHT NOW to wrestle in an event of a lifetime. Giving them an opportunity to do something they may never have the chance to do again. Most of these kids are not going to wrestle D1 and are not going to be NCAA all Americans, nor should we expect them to be. Majority of them are going to be done wrestling after high school, and that is 100% fine. So lets not even think about the idea of taking this away from them because you want Indiana to have more NCAA all Americans. If its not broken don’t fix it and if it is awesome, don’t even think about it. Personally, I believe the idea of classing wrestling in our state is absurd. It will ruin the finals experience that we have. While it may or may not make us a “top tier state, producing more NCAA all Americans” I say who cares. Of course I do hope Indiana does well at the next level -it’s ultimately a moot point. It is tantamount to me rooting for Notre Dame football players to perform well in the NFL or IU basketball players in the NBA. Currently, the system works, its awesome, and does more then enough to present kids opportunities to earn scholarships at the next level and it gives them an opportunity to do something great in a one of a kind finals presentation. If I remember correctly, the attendance for the finals was 10,800ish. Which was more than UFC 170 drew at Mandalay Bay in Las Vegas-which contained a title fight. So these kids who earned the right to compete under lights in front of almost 11k fans undivided attention can truly say they competed in an event of a lifetime. Why would we even consider changing it? Steven Salinas Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pjayroza Posted February 24, 2014 Share Posted February 24, 2014 Good post! I completely agree. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Y2CJ41 Posted February 24, 2014 Share Posted February 24, 2014 Why would we even consider changing it? To help grow the spot where it is dying at the small school level. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BeastMode#31 Posted February 24, 2014 Share Posted February 24, 2014 I know this has been discussed in detail here and I hate to open a can of worms, but I feel it is appropriate. Its only a matter of time before the topic comes up again. First off, congratulations to all the kids who just finished up a tough season. Every kid who stepped onto the mat and wrestled their butt off the past couple of months should be proud of what they just accomplished, regardless of their record or status. I was lucky enough to have been in attendance for the consolations and the finals this past year and they were simply amazing. Although I am a few years removed from the sport and don’t know any names of the kids and am now a ‘casual fan’, it was an awesome experience. Indiana wrestling has a gift that might be the greatest finals presentation in the country. While I could be picky and offer up some ideas to make the presentation a little bit more spectator friendly, it is fantastic overall and appears to blow other states finals presentation out of the water. The aura of the entire thing: the lights down, the spotlight, introductions, replays on the jumbotrons, the crowd of almost 11 thousand people completely focused on ONE MATCH. All of this would be ruined with class wrestling, if we were crowning two or three champions simultaneously. It would be almost impossible, too time consuming, and simply boring- if we introduced the finalists two or three times in the way that we do. We couldn’t turn down the lights, have an awards presentation, or a single spot light like we do and the crowds attention would be split between multiple matches. For example here are other states finals: Take a look at Matt Mcdonough win his 3rd HS state title in Iowa at 3A. 2 other matches going on. YAWN Illinois 1A state champs win titles while half the crowd is focused on other matches, not paying attention. Kid at 2:25 wins a title, while it sounds like the entire crowd is focused on the other mat yelling “TWOOO!” Lets watch Mr. Jaggers win his 4th state title in Ohio and the announcers even say how they feel sorry for the other kid who won a title on the other mat because nobody pays attention to him at 5:40 Announcer “Poor guy on mat #2 nobody who just won a title, nobody even knows he exists” You get the point. Bottom line is we have something special, that is our finals in our state. An opportunity for kids to wrestle in the event of a lifetime. For the record, I don’t care how many NCAA all Americans Indiana high school wrestling produces. I don’t care how many NCAA titles we take home, nor do I care if we are a “first tier wrestling state”. I don’t care about some random guys subjective rankings on flowrestling if we are in the “top 10” state in the country. So for those of you who argue and contend class wrestling will make us more competitive with the other more prestigious wrestling states, which may or may not be true. Why do we care so much where we are in relation to other states? Why do we even care how many NCAA Americans/champions we produce? Our focus should not be on future athletic accomplishments of our wrestlers, but it should be about providing them with an opportunity RIGHT NOW to wrestle in an event of a lifetime. Giving them an opportunity to do something they may never have the chance to do again. Most of these kids are not going to wrestle D1 and are not going to be NCAA all Americans, nor should we expect them to be. Majority of them are going to be done wrestling after high school, and that is 100% fine. So lets not even think about the idea of taking this away from them because you want Indiana to have more NCAA all Americans. If its not broken don’t fix it and if it is awesome, don’t even think about it. Personally, I believe the idea of classing wrestling in our state is absurd. It will ruin the finals experience that we have. While it may or may not make us a “top tier state, producing more NCAA all Americans” I say who cares. Of course I do hope Indiana does well at the next level -it’s ultimately a moot point. It is tantamount to me rooting for Notre Dame football players to perform well in the NFL or IU basketball players in the NBA. Currently, the system works, its awesome, and does more then enough to present kids opportunities to earn scholarships at the next level and it gives them an opportunity to do something great in a one of a kind finals presentation. If I remember correctly, the attendance for the finals was 10,800ish. Which was more than UFC 170 drew at Mandalay Bay in Las Vegas-which contained a title fight. So these kids who earned the right to compete under lights in front of almost 11k fans undivided attention can truly say they competed in an event of a lifetime. Why would we even consider changing it? Steven Salinas Couldn't agree more. Brace yourself though, the "participation medal" crowd is gonna bring the hate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BeastMode#31 Posted February 24, 2014 Share Posted February 24, 2014 To help grow the spot where it is dying at the small school level. Like Edgewood? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Y2CJ41 Posted February 24, 2014 Share Posted February 24, 2014 Like Edgewood? Edgewood is in the middle of the pack in terms of enrollment. They are at 144th in terms of enrollment of about 310 teams. If we had a two class system they would be a BIG school. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BeastMode#31 Posted February 24, 2014 Share Posted February 24, 2014 Edgewood is in the middle of the pack in terms of enrollment. They are at 144th in terms of enrollment of about 310 teams. If we had a two class system they would be a BIG school. How do you expect Edgewood to compete with the top 100 schools (by population)? We need at least 5-6 classes to make it fair and get everyone to state. (Sarcasm) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Y2CJ41 Posted February 24, 2014 Share Posted February 24, 2014 How do you expect Edgewood to compete with the top 100 schools (by population)? We need at least 5-6 classes to make it fair and get everyone to state. (Sarcasm) The same way we need to only have one weight class....right? I think we are hurting the kids by having multiple weight classes and if those little guys would just work hard they would be able to compete with Big Wes and Gelen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BeastMode#31 Posted February 24, 2014 Share Posted February 24, 2014 The same way we need to only have one weight class....right? I think we are hurting the kids by having multiple weight classes and if those little guys would just work hard they would be able to compete with Big Wes and Gelen. Lol We need some EXPERTS to weigh in on this (not you or I). Guys who have wrestled competitively nationally (with all due respect, please don't try to include yourself in this group). So, if Tsirtsis, Escobedo, Maurer, Caughlin, Quiroga, Eppert, Wright, Humphreys, Hassemans, Howe, Schafer, IU/PU coach, Micic (not MCAJCK), Hernandez, or any other experienced wrestlers are on this board please weigh in on class wrestling. If and only if I got some legit reasons from these guys would I even begin to consider class wrestling helping Indiana wrestling. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Y2CJ41 Posted February 24, 2014 Share Posted February 24, 2014 Because they all know what it is like to coach at a small school and big school right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BeastMode#31 Posted February 24, 2014 Share Posted February 24, 2014 Because they all know what it is like to coach at a small school and big school right? Waiting for an expert to respond... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Y2CJ41 Posted February 24, 2014 Share Posted February 24, 2014 Waiting for an expert to respond... They are experts on coaching at the small and big school levels right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MCKAJC Posted February 24, 2014 Share Posted February 24, 2014 (not MCAJCK) Wait, What? Not quite sure why you need to be a D1 competitor to understand. Just look at the states that are currently classed and ask them what they think. Illinois folks hate it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wrestling Scholar Posted February 24, 2014 Share Posted February 24, 2014 Waiting for an expert to respond... And wrestling nationally at NCAA D2 school is not expert enough. So dont think about it non-expert. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Y2CJ41 Posted February 24, 2014 Share Posted February 24, 2014 Wait, What? Not quite sure why you need to be a D1 competitor to understand. Just look at the states that are currently classed and ask them what they think. Illinois folks hate it Then why did their coaches vote to add another class recently? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Salinas Posted February 24, 2014 Author Share Posted February 24, 2014 Debate all you want about what other states do or do not do & why they did or didnt do it. Bottom line is class wrestling would not only double the number of champions we have, but it would cause us to have duplicate champions. Which is inherently different then having multiple kids win state championships at multiple weights- so stop using the 106 lber vs the 285lber as an argument, its absurd. Additionally, it would severely diminish the single greatest wrestling tournament that many of these kids would have the chance to compete in. Maybe it would help the small schools wrestling programs, maybe not. But it would cause us to have finals moments like the ones posted above. Our state finals is top notch and quite possibly the best in the country. Which would be a shame in my book if we let something like this go. With that said I do believe you have indiana wrestling's greatest interest at mind, I just disagree with you on this issue. -ss Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wrestling Scholar Posted February 24, 2014 Share Posted February 24, 2014 Wait, What? Not quite sure why you need to be a D1 competitor to understand. Just look at the states that are currently classed and ask them what they think. Illinois folks hate it Is that all of the Illinois folks, or most of the Illinois folks, or a majority of the Illinois folks or the micro sample of people MCKAJC knows that hates class wrestling. In my unscientific micro-sample, I've never heard anybody complain about classes in Illinois. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bog190 Posted February 24, 2014 Share Posted February 24, 2014 Waiting for an expert to respond... Incredibly mature. It's definitely tougher to make a logical argument then to make a comment like that isn't it? Hilarious. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Y2CJ41 Posted February 24, 2014 Share Posted February 24, 2014 Debate all you want about what other states do or do not do & why they did or didnt do it. Bottom line is class wrestling would not only double the number of champions we have, but it would cause us to have duplicate champions. Which is inherently different then having multiple kids win state championships at multiple weights- so stop using the 106 lber vs the 285lber as an argument, its absurd. Additionally, it would severely diminish the single greatest wrestling tournament that many of these kids would have the chance to compete in. Maybe it would help the small schools wrestling programs, maybe not. But it would cause us to have finals moments like the ones posted above. Our state finals is top notch and quite possibly the best in the country. Which would be a shame in my book if we let something like this go. With that said I do believe you have indiana wrestling's greatest interest at mind, I just disagree with you on this issue. -ss http://indianamat.com/messageboard/index.php/topic,30104.0.html Small schools average 9 kids in their lineup this year, that isn't healthy. That isn't a good sign for our state in terms of participation. 12 state qualifiers for the smallest schools...that is almost as many as Penn as a team had! 1A teams scored a combined 4 points at state this weekend. That is a combination of 105 schools! 1A teams produced one state place winner this year. If those aren't alarming statistics I don't know what isn't. Schools are in budget crunches and a sport like wrestling is easy to axe when they have a severe lack of participants and interest. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jchas Posted February 24, 2014 Share Posted February 24, 2014 If we would class wresting and have the travel restrictions in Indiana. How many of our best guys would leave then? Could you imagine Nick Lee and Micic wresting against all small schools? I doubt it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wrestling Scholar Posted February 24, 2014 Share Posted February 24, 2014 If we would class wresting and have the travel restrictions in Indiana. How many of our best guys would leave then? Could you imagine Nick Lee and Micic wresting against all small schools? I doubt it. Logan Steiber wrestled against all small schools in Ohio, ( at least in the state tournament), and that didnt hurt him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Y2CJ41 Posted February 24, 2014 Share Posted February 24, 2014 If we would class wresting and have the travel restrictions in Indiana. How many of our best guys would leave then? Could you imagine Nick Lee and Micic wresting against all small schools? I doubt it. They can wrestle all the big schools they want during the regular season. This would not prevent Mater Dei or Hanover Central from entering in any events during the regular season. Personally, I think this would add interest and excitement to events like the Mater Dei Classic, Al Smith and Connersville. Could you imagine the talk of having a 1A champ vs. a 2A champ? I know in Illinois they had a ton of hype around Josh Alber vs. Jarred Cortez in early January. The kids/parents that are leaving and citing Indiana's travel rules are leaving for classed states right now. I don't see kids leaving the state in other sports that are classed. You also don't see any big time Michigan kids leaving due to class wrestling and their lack of travel rules(minus Mark Hall). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Salinas Posted February 24, 2014 Author Share Posted February 24, 2014 Here is a video of logan steiber winning a state title... Typical victim of winning a classed championship as nobody in the crowd seems to care much. Yawn. Half the arena is focused on the other matches. http://www.flowrestling.org/coverage/234751-2009-OHSAA-Ohio-State-High-School-Wrestling-Championships/video/161480-D3-125-FINAL-Logan-Stieber-Monroeville-vs-Alex-Lopez-Patrick-Henry#.UwvJpEJdU5Q -ss Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Y2CJ41 Posted February 24, 2014 Share Posted February 24, 2014 A victim, haha. I hope he has sought counseling. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pjayroza Posted February 24, 2014 Share Posted February 24, 2014 I think this would make for a good poll. 2 class individual system or keep it as 1. Personally, I like to find out who the true number one is on Saturday, but I understand the opposition. Just a differing of opinions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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