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More impressive freshman campaign, Lee or J. Tsirtsis?

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okay to stir the pot GO MICIC  ;D

 

C'mon gotta love the underdog vision quest plot.

 

Go Lee!

 

Seriously, good luck to both young men. Both great for our state and sport. Too bad one of them has to lose, and in the semis at that.

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All we have to go on right now is "to this point". Should we shut down the message board until after finals Saturday?

 

Btw- up to this point it is Lee. Tsirtsis did not have an unblemished record going in to state nor did he destroy everyone put in his path his freshman year "up to this point".

 

 

 

But that's exactly my point. Congratulations that to this point he has had a better freshman year but I'm sure everyone on this board would rather take a STATE CHAMPIONSHIP and only two losses at the end of that freshman year as opposed to having one loss and third being the highest finish you could take as would happen if Lee were to lose to Micic, this also is my point, IF Lee would happen to lose, the "freshman campaign" as the thread is titled is finished yet so how can we talk about who's was better yet lol

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on a totally unrelated subject...Jason Tsirtsis sophomore year only beat sophomore Devon Jackson 2-0 in OT in the finals...why do I not remember that?

 

check that...it was 4-0

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on a totally unrelated subject...Jason Tsirtsis sophomore year only beat sophomore Devon Jackson 2-0 in OT in the finals...why do I not remember that?

 

check that...it was 4-0

 

That was OT. It was 0-0 at the end of regulation.

 

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Well I guess this argument is over.  I compare Micic to Cashe, similar high school careers.  Tsirtsis got the win over Cashe and Lee was dominated by Micic.  Lee may be a 3 timer but his schedule was pretty weak he did not have to wrestle Brandon Wright, Napules and Cashe during the season. 

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I think this is an interesting time.  Lee is very good.  Time will tell how good.  Micic is that special.  And interesting to think what is Lee were wrestling 120?  Would the result still have been the same with Red?  Red has the makings of a 4-time champ. 

 

Does Lee beat Ayersman his senior year?  Jared McKinley? Crume last year? Reece Humphrey as a junior?  Escobedo as a soph?  Tsirtsis as a frosh?

 

There have been a lot of great wrestlers at that weight in the past 10 years or so. 

 

Nick Lee's story is still to be told.  But his successful freshman year (note Micic finished 3rd as a frosh) has given him a chance to be in the discussion with some of these other multiple champs.  But being in the discussion as far as potential does not translate to results.  Looking forward to the next 3 years to see how the story ends!

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I am not sure how good Micic will be at the next level.  Will he be able to get off bottom?  He could have beaten Lee by 10-12.  Lee's only chance was on top.  Two good wrestlers but not sure they are in the Indiana elite category with Tsirtsis, Escobeod, Tsirtsis, Howe, Humphrey.

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I am not sure how good Micic will be at the next level.  Will he be able to get off bottom?  He could have beaten Lee by 10-12.  Lee's only chance was on top.  Two good wrestlers but not sure they are in the Indiana elite category with Tsirtsis, Escobeod, Tsirtsis, Howe, Humphrey.

 

Howe and Hump both lost their freshman year...

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Well I guess this argument is over.  I compare Micic to Cashe, similar high school careers.  Tsirtsis got the win over Cashe and Lee was dominated by Micic.  Lee may be a 3 timer but his schedule was pretty weak he did not have to wrestle Brandon Wright, Napules and Cashe during the season.

 

Micic Is a 3xer and was a 3rd when he was a undersized 103. Napules would equate to early but 2x medalist Jason lost to Anthony and lee tech falled early. If your asking pure dominating nick lee pinned or teched every opponent except the champ and runner up. One was a loss to a guy who was wrestling for a world title earlier this year and the other was a win by major. Jason was the champ dethroning a returning champ he's a legend Howe lost to a 3xer then went on to become the most dominate wrestler in Indiana history I expect Lee to write a similar legacy.

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This is very similar to when Andrew Howe wrestled Reece Humphrey. Humphrey hit a headlock on Howe sending a message that is isn't quite your time yet. Both went on to do great things. The same will happen here with Micic and Lee. 

 

It is extremely rare that kids that are this talented are in the same weight class in Indiana. Both kids are competitors and we were treated to something special last night with not only this match, but also LeCount vs. Forte.

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I'm just glad all the Lee fans can accept that regardless of how dominate he may have been during every match up to that semi's match that still doesn't change the fact that winning a state title as a frosh is more impressive than getting third regardless of losses or who you wrestled (he may have had less losses than tshirts but it's pretty obvious who wrestled better competition the entire yr, possibly a factor in y he was ready for the best once state rolled around)

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A 3rd place finisher... Or a 4 time State Champion.. At this point, ill give to go ahead to Tsirtsis

 

I believe that Nick Lee would have been a state champion in almost any other weight class that he chose to wrestle in. He chose to face the toughest competition. I have great respect for his accomplishments as a freshman.

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A 3rd place finisher... Or a 4 time State Champion.. At this point, ill give to go ahead to Tsirtsis

We are talking about one year, not four years. Comparing Nick Lee's one year of wrestling to four years of wrestling for ANYONE is quite absurd.

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This is absurd!!! The only people arguing this point for Tsirtsis are probably from the region.  Lee wrestled one of the most highly recruited kids in the nation.  I'm going to bet that if you put Jason Tsirtsis in this convo he might not concede from the running but he would laugh at those saying Lee losing to Micic proves anything.  Not to mention who ever it was that posted Cashe's career was anything close to Micic's should be banned.  LOL :D

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Once again Lee lost to the number 1 ranked 126 in the country. Sr. Micic would definitely beat Fr. Tsirtsis. I bet Lee is pound for pound #2 best wrestler in the state behind Micic. How can you take anything away from him? Sr Micic would've majored Sr. Quiroga

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This is absurd!!! The only people arguing this point for Tsirtsis are probably from the region.  Lee wrestled one of the most highly recruited kids in the nation.  I'm going to bet that if you put Jason Tsirtsis in this convo he might not concede from the running but he would laugh at those saying Lee losing to Micic proves anything.  Not to mention who ever it was that posted Cashe's career was anything close to Micic's should be banned.  LOL :D

 

Micic and Cashe both great wrestlers as is Lee.  Lee might very well be one of the best but the original post was Tsirtsis and Lee freshman year.  I think Tsirtsis wrestled a much tougher schedule and beat Cashe in the semis when nobody thought he would lose that year.  Just my opinion Tsirtsis Freshman campaign was more impressive. 

 

On a side note Htfit78 and Jayruss.  I think you have forgot how good Cashe was.  He lost his soph. year in the finals to Harper a three time champion.  Won his Junior year and his senior year bumped up a weight class a few times to beat Harper.  He beat Wright as well.  After Tsirtsis beat him he went on to win Jr. Nationals beating some good wrestlers and came in second Senior nationals losing to Colon who is #1 this year at 133.  Below are some of the wrestlers he beat to win his Jr title.    Oh yeah I forgot Cashe AA as a true freshman the following year and was ranked 3-5 at 130 in the national rankings that year before Tsirtsis beat him.  Micic vs. Cashe would have been a great match IMO don't think it would have been a major for Micic.  Tsirtsis a freshman beat a senior Stud and Lee did not and got dominated.  I think Tsirtsis's Freshman year was better.  I think Lee will win 3 and is going to be really good not taking anything away from him.

 

 

2009 USAW Junior Freestyle Nationals (07/22 - 07/25/2009)

    Junior - 130 (1st)

        1st Place Match: Cashe` Quiroga (Indiana) over Nick Dardanes (Illinois ) (Dec 1-2,7-0,5-0)

        RR3: Cashe` Quiroga (Indiana) over Chris Dardanes (Illinois ) (Dec 3-0,1-0)

        RR2: Cashe` Quiroga (Indiana) over () (Bye )

        RR1: Cashe` Quiroga (Indiana) over Colton Rasche (Illinois ) (Dec 2-3,3-0,4-0)

        Round 8: Cashe` Quiroga (Indiana) over Justin LaValle (Minnesota) (Dec 3-3,3-0,10-4)

        Round 7: Cashe` Quiroga (Indiana) over Alex Kostenborder (Oregon) (TF 10-0,7-0)

        Round 6: Cashe` Quiroga (Indiana) over West Johnson (Connecticut) (TF 6-0,6-0)

        Round 5: Cashe` Quiroga (Indiana) over Jake Eitzen (Colorado) (Dec 4-0,2-0)

        Round 4: Cashe` Quiroga (Indiana) over () (Bye )

        Round 3: Cashe` Quiroga (Indiana) over Mike Hamel (Arizona) (Dec 4-2,4-0)

        Round 2: Cashe` Quiroga (Indiana) over Ian Fisher (Oklahoma) (Dec 6-0,5-0)

        Round 1: Cashe` Quiroga (Indiana) over Tj Guidice (New Jersey) (TF 6-0,6-0)

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A 3rd place finisher... Or a 4 time State Champion.. At this point, ill give to go ahead to Tsirtsis

 

So a 4x champ will always be put ahead of a 3x time champ, regardless of anything else?  Performance on the national stage doesn't matter? 

 

Tsirtsis is obviously one of the most decorated wrestlers ever, but I would put Howe above some 4xers.  I would probably put Sliga above some 3xers, maybe even 4xers. 

 

Micic is one of the best to ever to wrestle in Indiana. 

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Micic and Cashe both great wrestlers as is Lee.  Lee might very well be one of the best but the original post was Tsirtsis and Lee freshman year.  I think Tsirtsis wrestled a much tougher schedule and beat Cashe in the semis when nobody thought he would lose that year.  Just my opinion Tsirtsis Freshman campaign was more impressive. 

 

On a side note Htfit78 and Jayruss.  I think you have forgot how good Cashe was.  He lost his soph. year in the finals to Harper a three time champion.  Won his Junior year and his senior year bumped up a weight class a few times to beat Harper.  He beat Wright as well.  After Tsirtsis beat him he went on to win Jr. Nationals beating some good wrestlers and came in second Senior nationals losing to Colon who is #1 this year at 133.  Below are some of the wrestlers he beat to win his Jr title.    Oh yeah I forgot Cashe AA as a true freshman the following year and was ranked 3-5 at 130 in the national rankings that year before Tsirtsis beat him.  Micic vs. Cashe would have been a great match IMO don't think it would have been a major for Micic.  Tsirtsis a freshman beat a senior Stud and Lee did not and got dominated.  I think Tsirtsis's Freshman year was better.  I think Lee will win 3 and is going to be really good not taking anything away from him.

 

 

2009 USAW Junior Freestyle Nationals (07/22 - 07/25/2009)

    Junior - 130 (1st)

        1st Place Match: Cashe` Quiroga (Indiana) over Nick Dardanes (Illinois ) (Dec 1-2,7-0,5-0)

        RR3: Cashe` Quiroga (Indiana) over Chris Dardanes (Illinois ) (Dec 3-0,1-0)

        RR2: Cashe` Quiroga (Indiana) over () (Bye )

        RR1: Cashe` Quiroga (Indiana) over Colton Rasche (Illinois ) (Dec 2-3,3-0,4-0)

        Round 8: Cashe` Quiroga (Indiana) over Justin LaValle (Minnesota) (Dec 3-3,3-0,10-4)

        Round 7: Cashe` Quiroga (Indiana) over Alex Kostenborder (Oregon) (TF 10-0,7-0)

        Round 6: Cashe` Quiroga (Indiana) over West Johnson (Connecticut) (TF 6-0,6-0)

        Round 5: Cashe` Quiroga (Indiana) over Jake Eitzen (Colorado) (Dec 4-0,2-0)

        Round 4: Cashe` Quiroga (Indiana) over () (Bye )

        Round 3: Cashe` Quiroga (Indiana) over Mike Hamel (Arizona) (Dec 4-2,4-0)

        Round 2: Cashe` Quiroga (Indiana) over Ian Fisher (Oklahoma) (Dec 6-0,5-0)

        Round 1: Cashe` Quiroga (Indiana) over Tj Guidice (New Jersey) (TF 6-0,6-0)

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I'm not afraid to admit when I'm wrong. I'll admit that Cashe had a better career than I had even known about.  I'll retract my statement that you should be banned.  Perhaps I should be for my lack of knowledge on the topic I posted on.  I will say that I have watched both compete and feel that Micic would beat Cache.  But I can see how you would say Tsirtsis rose to the occasion while Lee did not.  I'm still not convinced, but that is the best comparison we'll ever get.

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Here's another slant.  Quiroga was on pace to have what may have been the greatest senior year ever in the state of Indiana. He had beaten 5 maybe 6 state champs or runners up that year. Harper, Wright, Eppert, Tsirtsis. Maybe someone else can help with the list? At any rate, had he not lost to JT that year in the semis we may be calling that the greatest Sr. year ever. But Jason Tsirtsis derailed that quest his freshman year. Which seems like it should add to his freshman year being best. 

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I think the question might be this: which is more important, the floor or the ceiling? 

 

Tsirtsis' floor?  Losing to a multiple time state placer after having smoked him 2-3 times before.

Lee's floor?  Almost majored by the #1 guy in the nation.

 

Tsirtsis' ceiling performance?  Beating the #3 guy in the nation (a Fargo national champ).

Lee's ceiling performance?  Teching the two-time state runner-up.

 

For my money, the ceiling is always more important than the floor.  If you want to take Lee because his floor was not as low, that's cool.  I'll take Tsirtsis as a freshman because his ceiling performance was higher.

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