IMAWRESTLER Posted February 26, 2014 Share Posted February 26, 2014 I just think your system is flawed. You are going more off of tournament finishes and not dual teams strength. I thought that's why you were putting this event on for. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrecoCoach Posted February 26, 2014 Share Posted February 26, 2014 I just think your system is flawed. You are going more off of tournament finishes and not dual teams strength. I thought that's why you were putting this event on for. Calling the system "flawed" is useless unless you have a new, better idea to propose. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KarlHungus Posted February 26, 2014 Share Posted February 26, 2014 I just think your system is flawed. You are going more off of tournament finishes and not dual teams strength. I thought that's why you were putting this event on for. Everyone knows its not a perfect system, the tournament strength is the only logical base to judge that has everyone on a "somewhat" equal playing field. If Peru would have qualified would you suggest the Tigers boycott because it is a flawed system? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bog190 Posted February 26, 2014 Share Posted February 26, 2014 Calling the system "flawed" is useless unless you have a new, better idea to propose. Just because someone does not have a full team state proposal to replace the current one does not mean they can't point out the flaws of the current one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrecoCoach Posted February 26, 2014 Share Posted February 26, 2014 Just because someone does not have a full team state proposal to replace the current one does not mean they can't point out the flaws of the current one. Fair enough... How about if I add "or a specific solution to fix what you think is a flaw"? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bog190 Posted February 26, 2014 Share Posted February 26, 2014 Fair enough... How about if I add "or a specific solution to fix what you think is a flaw"? Again, people can have opinions without having fixes to the problem. Is it helpful if an idea is given with a complaint? Of course, but I don't think its fair to tell someone they can't think the system is flawed unless they have a fix to the problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrecoCoach Posted February 26, 2014 Share Posted February 26, 2014 Again, people can have opinions without having fixes to the problem. Is it helpful if an idea is given with a complaint? Of course, but I don't think its fair to tell someone they can't think the system is flawed unless they have a fix to the problem. I never said he couldn't complain. I just pointed out that it was useless because he wasn't helping. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
74smack Posted February 26, 2014 Share Posted February 26, 2014 I think that there should be some kind of common sense rule. The numbers aren't always correct. Peru is not in the same league as Yorktown, but we have had several seniors that have been Journeymen behind good kids getting their first shot at varsity. Peru had a strong dual team in 2012-13, and came back with a strong program this season. 2013-14 Season: Dual Record 17-3 with their only losses to 3A schools (Mishawaka, Lowell, and Plymouth) Al Smith Invitational-Belmont and Peru were the only 2A schools to finish in the top 10 Twin Lakes Champions MIC Champions Sectional Champions Regional Champions 4th place at semi-state 3 state qualifiers 17 dual wins on a very weak schedule, Sectional and Regional Champions from one of the weakest in the state. I'd say the system did it's job to keep out inflation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
samaj Posted February 26, 2014 Share Posted February 26, 2014 I will say it AGAIN. It seems people forget this. Every single year of the IHSAA Team State, the event was based on a "tournament" based team qualifier since the teams that advanced were the Sectional Champs and runner ups. So every single dual meet state title ever won in the state if Indiana was by a team that qualified in a tournament qualification system. flawed or not...we have no other way of doing it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maligned Posted February 26, 2014 Author Share Posted February 26, 2014 I just think your system is flawed. You are going more off of tournament finishes and not dual teams strength. I thought that's why you were putting this event on for. It is definitely flawed. It can't possibly predict who will be the best 8 teams or 12 teams perfectly when it can only go off of your average ability to replace your lost seniors--not the exact jv and freshmen you've got coming in. However, it is a misconception that I've tried to explain extensively that the scoring is based on tournament strength. It is not true. Your score at the top of this thread is based 100% on the predicted DUALS strength you will have next year based on how each of your individuals did in the state tournament series. Each regional qualifier has a meticulously researched impact on duals strength. Each first round semi-state loser has a meticulously researched impact on your duals strength. And so on. The scoring system is designed specifically to reflect duals strength, and nothing else. It only feels like a tournament scoring system because the numbers are big. The scoring is completely different from tournament-type scoring (for instance, there's not an enormous scoring difference between a second round semi-state loser and a state champion because their impact on a 2A team's duals strength is very similar). I know these facts don't make it a perfect system. It's not. All of us want what you want--the chance for teams to have an all-in duals tournament. I hope it's coming--but I know Peru will have an impact in this system or an all-in system in future years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
munges Posted February 26, 2014 Share Posted February 26, 2014 I will say it AGAIN. It seems people forget this. Every single year of the IHSAA Team State, the event was based on a "tournament" based team qualifier since the teams that advanced were the Sectional Champs and runner ups. So every single dual meet state title ever won in the state if Indiana was by a team that qualified in a tournament qualification system. flawed or not...we have no other way of doing it. While it was based on the sectional "tournament". Your whole team was represented at sectional. You then switch to regional, semi, and state finishes. Personally I was okay with IHSAA's model as the entire team had opportunity to score points for your team to move forward. At sectional your weaker wrestlers helped by not getting pinned or giving up a major. So the entire team helped with your scoring or trying to keep another teams bonus points from going up. A flaw yes but not as flawed as we have now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Y2CJ41 Posted February 26, 2014 Share Posted February 26, 2014 While it was based on the sectional "tournament". Your whole team was represented at sectional. You then switch to regional, semi, and state finishes. Personally I was okay with IHSAA's model as the entire team had opportunity to score points for your team to move forward. At sectional your weaker wrestlers helped by not getting pinned or giving up a major. So the entire team helped with your scoring or trying to keep another teams bonus points from going up. A flaw yes but not as flawed as we have now. No one has claimed this system to be perfect. Do you think we should just go to coaches votes so we can be the good ole boys club again? This system does a fine job for what we need it to do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
munges Posted February 26, 2014 Share Posted February 26, 2014 No one has claimed this system to be perfect. Do you think we should just go to coaches votes so we can be the good ole boys club again? This system does a fine job for what we need it to do. What do you need it to do? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Y2CJ41 Posted February 26, 2014 Share Posted February 26, 2014 What do you need it to do? Well we need to identify the top 8-12 teams for next year in the spring of this year. The reason being that we have a limited number of weigh-ins and teams need the notice to drop events in order to add this one. In a perfect wonderful world with wrestle-backs and 10lbs weight allowances we wouldn't have to do it, but the reality is this is what we have to work with. If you have a suggestion on a better way to do this, please enlighten us instead of claiming there are flaws. I am sure if you have a better way or even a legit suggestion then it would be taken seriously. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wrestling Scholar Posted February 26, 2014 Share Posted February 26, 2014 While it was based on the sectional "tournament". Your whole team was represented at sectional. You then switch to regional, semi, and state finishes. Personally I was okay with IHSAA's model as the entire team had opportunity to score points for your team to move forward. At sectional your weaker wrestlers helped by not getting pinned or giving up a major. So the entire team helped with your scoring or trying to keep another teams bonus points from going up. A flaw yes but not as flawed as we have now. The old system was probably more flawed. At least now you're likely not to get the best teams in the tournament and not the teams that came from the weakest regionals. Also the tournament is not in the middle of the individual state tournament and there's less likely of a chance a kid getting hurt and ruining his chance to place and coaches will be more likely to put their best lineup out because they dont have to avoid the kids getting hurt. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
munges Posted February 26, 2014 Share Posted February 26, 2014 The old system was probably more flawed. At least now you're likely not to get the best teams in the tournament and not the teams that came from the weakest regionals. Also the tournament is not in the middle of the individual state tournament and there's less likely of a chance a kid getting hurt and ruining his chance to place and coaches will be more likely to put their best lineup out because they dont have to avoid the kids getting hurt. Don't know where you were but around here was some of the best dual meets I have ever seen. And the best dual meet teams made it to the finals. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wrestling Scholar Posted February 26, 2014 Share Posted February 26, 2014 Don't know where you were but around here was some of the best dual meets I have ever seen. And the best dual meet teams made it to the finals. You were probably right that the best team made the finals, but not all of the best teams made the tournament ( in the old method). In this case the best teams will make the tournament and the best teams will make the finals unless they elect not to go. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
munges Posted February 27, 2014 Share Posted February 27, 2014 You were probably right that the best team made the finals, but not all of the best teams made the tournament ( in the old method). In this case the best teams will make the tournament and the best teams will make the finals unless they elect not to go. I know it is the best system we have, but the best teams did not make the tournament. I do believe the best teams were probably in the finals at each class. But the best dual meet teams of 2014 were not in the tournament. At least the old system that years team had a chance to make the tourney. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bog190 Posted February 27, 2014 Share Posted February 27, 2014 I know it is the best system we have, but the best teams did not make the tournament. I do believe the best teams were probably in the finals at each class. But the best dual meet teams of 2014 were not in the tournament. At least the old system that years team had a chance to make the tourney. Which top dual teams didn't make it? Just curious. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
munges Posted February 27, 2014 Share Posted February 27, 2014 Which top dual teams didn't make it? Just curious. Yea, but the committee didn't choose Cass which, I think would have been right with both AC and Busco this year, and the system didn't allow Bellmont to be voted in, and I believe that they were every bit as good as North Montgomery. Hopefully, the expansion to 12 teams can help to eliminate these errors. I see someone else would say Cass for 1a and Bellmont for 2a. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PreparetoWin Posted February 27, 2014 Share Posted February 27, 2014 I see someone else would say Cass for 1a and Bellmont for 2a. Didnt Bellmont not wrestle very well last year in the state tourney?? so if we had the old system and they didnt win Sectional or Regional last year, they should be in the tourney anyway just because they are good and they have tradition? No....they didnt wrestle well enough sorry. You know how many times kids have to watch other kids move on because they werent as good a certain day or certain match. Bellmont might be the number one team in the nation this season, but at the end of last season, when it was time to qualify they didnt do enough. I dont understand the debate...the best teams, athletes, etc dont always move on, dont always win the race, dont always win the medal or save the day...You perform when its time to qualify or you dont....I cant wait until a team we beat gets into the state tourney so I can complain how unfair it is that we didnt perform our best but really we are better. Now, this year...they got the job done and kicked butt so they are in!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bog190 Posted February 27, 2014 Share Posted February 27, 2014 Didnt Bellmont not wrestle very well last year in the state tourney?? so if we had the old system and they didnt win Sectional or Regional last year, they should be in the tourney anyway just because they are good and they have tradition? No....they didnt wrestle well enough sorry. You know how many times kids have to watch other kids move on because they werent as good a certain day or certain match. Bellmont might be the number one team in the nation this season, but at the end of last season, when it was time to qualify they didnt do enough. I dont understand the debate...the best teams, athletes, etc dont always move on, dont always win the race, dont always win the medal or save the day...You perform when its time to qualify or you dont....I cant wait until a team we beat gets into the state tourney so I can complain how unfair it is that we didnt perform our best but really we are better. Now, this year...they got the job done and kicked butt so they are in!! The issue is that last year's Bellmont team didn't perform, so this year's team didn't qualify even though they were clearly in the top 8 and maybe in the top 2 or 3. So under the old system, Bellmonts poor performing team last year would have been knocked out, but it wouldn't have affected this year's much better team that added 2 freshman state qualifiers and a jv kid from last year that lost ticket round this year. You obsess over this ' tradition ' thing. No one is saying they should have been in because of tradition, they are saying they should have been in because they were a top 4 team this year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PreparetoWin Posted February 27, 2014 Share Posted February 27, 2014 The issue is that last year's Bellmont team didn't perform, so this year's team didn't qualify even though they were clearly in the top 8 and maybe in the top 2 or 3. So under the old system, Bellmonts poor performing team last year would have been knocked out, but it wouldn't have affected this year's much better team that added 2 freshman state qualifiers and a jv kid from last year that lost ticket round this year. You obsess over this ' tradition ' thing. No one is saying they should have been in because of tradition, they are saying they should have been in because they were a top 4 team this year. The top teams dont always make it...no system, no sport has the best teams always make it. The goal is to try to get the best teams, but if you dont qualify when its time to qualify you dont get in. But I am 100% sure any ideas to improve the system would be listened to. What is your idea to improve the current system to make sure it take into account JV kids and 8th graders and under performing teams? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bog190 Posted February 27, 2014 Share Posted February 27, 2014 The top teams dont always make it...no system, no sport has the best teams always make it. The goal is to try to get the best teams, but if you dont qualify when its time to qualify you dont get in. But I am 100% sure any ideas to improve the system would be listened to. What is your idea to improve the current system to make sure it take into account JV kids and 8th graders and under performing teams? I've had several discussions about the system with maligned, I don't feel the need to provide you with any ideas. The point I was making, is your argument about Bellmont wanting in on tradition is a stupid one, quite frankly. They didn't make it in this year, its over, and they are in next year. End of story. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PreparetoWin Posted February 27, 2014 Share Posted February 27, 2014 I've had several discussions about the system with maligned, I don't feel the need to provide you with any ideas. The point I was making, is your argument about Bellmont wanting in on tradition is a stupid one, quite frankly. They didn't make it in this year, its over, and they are in next year. End of story. Thank goodness Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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