2A IHSWCA State Duals qualifying scores (unofficial thru STATE)

[decbell1]

I do agree with the np father a bit. It's kind of ridiculous that a team that unless they have some crazy improvements for next year are going to be on the voting ballet while new prairie isn't going to get a chance. If I were a betting man I'd say their jv could probably beat atleast one of those teams that is in contention. I understand that it's neat impossible to judge How strong a team with that many seniors on it is going to do next year but when they have double the amount of regional qualifiers,  more semistate qualifiers, and not that many less non seniors make it to regionals/semistate, then a team, I would expect them to be better next year then the other team. There should be some way to give those teams a chance at getting voted in. Worst case (if it isn't already there) let people write in a team, if they feel a team has a solid jv behind a bunch of seniors they could have a chance.

 

I'll say what most people won't:

 

If you have 8, 9, 10 or more seniors on your squad, you're just not going to get invited. Whether that is/was the intent behind the system here, I am not sure.

 

If you're a good team with 8 seniors, you should get your shot with those kids this year, but you won't get a shot next year. Right or wrong, that's the way it goes right now.

[decbell1]

**** Disclaimer: I'm playing devil's advocate with you here New Prairie Fans

 

Truth:

You had one undersclassman wrestle at Regional

(why did the 106 and 126 not wrestle?)

 

Truth: Your senior bunch accomplished some great things this year

 

Truth: They didn't exactly set the world on fire in the state tournament this year.

1 senior finished 5th out of 5 at sectional

SEVEN guys lost in the first round of regionals

TWO of your four SS qualifiers finished in 4th place.

 

 

I think the system is set up to try and gauge replacement points for seniors.

 

Devil's Advocate: If, after four years in your program, eight seniors go (roughly) 2-3 in the state tournament series, how can you argue that the replacements for those seniors, presumably guys with little varsity experience, can expect to do any better than that?

 

Truth: Bellmont had the most embarrassing performance in the 20 years I have followed the team last year at Regional. No matter how mad I get at the formula for not getting Bellmont in this year, I know that we could have achieved better last year.

[maligned]

Sorry, I know this is loads of work, but I still don't understand how 3 teams we handily beat are a head of us, and going to be hard to catch, and we only have 3 seniors still wrestling.

 

Unfortunately, you earn points right now in the tournament in proving whether you might be better than others next year.  This year's results, in a sense, don't matter.  With that said, if you can get up to about 260, you'll have a very nice resume when being considered in the voting.  You would need 6-7 victories in the first two rounds of semi-state (from the 18 potential matches available to you).  You have the greatest possibility for points this week among all the 2A teams in the state, in fact.  Otherwise, the system believes that your advancement of a bunch of guys out of a regional where the 5th and 6th best teams have Genius levels of 25 and 31 was mostly based on facing lesser competition.

[NICfan]

I'm far from a np fan but I have seen them wrestle, and they are solid at every weight,  they Change it up a lot aalso. They had guys under perform and I've seen some of their back ups and sure they might not improve from this year (they could) there likely won't be a huge fall off. That's why I'd suggest the write in ballot so they(and others) have a chance. Because there's going to be a few teams on the ballot that would get blown out by np. Now those teams likely won't make it but they will have a chance. You throw the write in vote then technically everyone has a chance. Now if there is the write in on it I have no argument,  because then they can vote and use common sense and eliminate the errors that can't be fixed.

[JakeandBreighton]

Unfortunately, you earn points right now in the tournament in proving whether you might be better than others next year.  This year's results, in a sense, don't matter.  With that said, if you can get up to about 260, you'll have a very nice resume when being considered in the voting.  You would need 6-7 victories in the first two rounds of semi-state (from the 18 potential matches available to you).  You have the greatest possibility for points this week among all the 2A teams in the state, in fact.  Otherwise, the system believes that your advancement of a bunch of guys out of a regional where the 5th and 6th best teams have Genius levels of 25 and 31 was mostly based on facing lesser competition.

Sorry, but that still doesn't explain how Whitko, Garrett, and Hamilton Heights are all ahead of us, and I think the closest score was 48-18. I don't think there's any way you can fairly rank dual meet teams, based on tourney scores. I think looking at the bcs system in college football, shows where this should be headed. Why not go to a 4 class system. Have rankings based on results posted on here, if a coach doesn't report, they obviously are not interested in the dual state. Have a media poll, and a coaches poll. Have 4 regionals per class host super 8's. Top to advance to state. Then do a tourney style for each class. It would take 2 Saturday's, but it would be a better dual format. Obviously, the yearly powerhouse teams will usually win, but each year would offer a senior heavy team a chance to see how they stack up.

[PreparetoWin]

So all these senior loaded teams...how did they perform last year in the state tourney? If they have so many great seniors wouldnt they have had a few staties and ticket rounders and regional champs last year?  Were these seniors move ins, under perform last year, were they hurt?? I have heard people complain about where they stack up and then when looking at their state performance they fit in exactly where they should based on performance in the state series.  I would be interested to see how all these senior loaded super teams did last season...Did these returning guys all qualify for semi state and a couple go to state last year?

[JakeandBreighton]

So all these senior loaded teams...how did they perform last year in the state tourney? If they have so many great seniors wouldnt they have had a few staties and ticket rounders and regional champs last year?  Were these seniors move ins, under perform last year, were they hurt?? I have heard people complain about where they stack up and then when looking at their state performance they fit in exactly where they should based on performance in the state series.  I would be interested to see how all these senior loaded super teams did last season...Did these returning guys all qualify for semi state and a couple go to state last year?

again, I don't understand what that had to do with it. How many more seniors are there left in the state tourney, than all the rest. Our last state qualifier, didn't make it out of regionals till his senior year. You're saying you can't be a good senior, if you didn't go to ss or state. I'm arguing for the team. Peru had a good team this year, and was senior heavy, with like 9 ssq's and a state q retraining, and they were in the rankings, but didn't get an invite. Western did, and if they had last year's team, they would have done much better, but they had at least 2 ssq not come out, one moved, and 2 reg q graduated mid term. There are some many things, other than returning state placers from last year, that figure into this, that is not being figured in. That's my only point.

[samaj]

It seems that some people continue to forget that the IHSWCA State Duals are not a perfect animal but they are what we can have at this time based on IHSAA limitations etc etc.

 

1. we cannot have the event after individual state.

2. we cannot have a multiple week tournament series.

3. we cannot have a waiver to allow more weigh ins (scheduling points) for teams.

 

We have to have a single day event and do the best we can to get the most deserving teams invited.  That can only happen by having some type if a qualifying system in place.  Whether its right or wrong, there is a system and you do control your own destiny.  If your team wrestles well on the mat you can qualify.  If your team does not wrestle well you do not qualify.  Either way, I would rather have this system than a system that includes coaches polls (popularity contests), media polls (very few media outlets cover our sport very well), and any other type of "poll".

 

I will use our team at Evansville Memorial as an example.  The first year of the event we qualified and wrestled to a 2nd place finish losing to a tough Yorktown team in the finals.  Danville was clearly better than us but we got a good "seed" and we won a dual against a great Southmont team and then squeaked by Culver Academy in a tremendous semifinal.  It was a HUGE day for our program.  We were very excited.  We were also young.  We were sitting pretty to qualify again this year but then the sectional day arrived.  We had 3 underclassmen wrestle very poorly and we did not perform anywhere near what we were capable of.  We scored enough to make the "at large voting" list but we were not voted in.  Did I think the committee made a mistake not voting us in?  Yes.  Do I think we would have placed high this year in the 2A team duals had we been voted in? Yes.  However, I also don't have a problem with us not being there because the fact of the matter is that we did not wrestle ourselves into the event based on the system that is in place and we put our fate in the hands of others.

 

The qualifying system we have in place is not perfect but its had a TON of thought put into it.  Its been tweaked here and there and its pretty thorough.  Can a team get left out due to weird little quirky stuff like having 9 seniors in their lineup? Yes...and yes that stinks, but that team qualified this year didn't they?  In the end its about getting 12 "deserving" teams to the event.  Unfortunately there could be more than 12 deserving teams, just like in college football where there will be more than 4 deserving teams to get into the championship event next season.

 

Whether its fair or not, whether it has loopholes or not, you still qualify by how your team performs on the mat and I would rather have that than something else.  As a coach I know going in what my team has to do to qualify.  We can discuss that, we can make sure our team knows what its going to take to qualify and if the chips are stacked against us because we are senior laden or not.  Not everyone gets to qualify every year...some years your chances are better than others.  Its not perfect but its what we got and its 1000 times better than nothing.

 

lastly....one silver lining...look how many new teams wrestled in the event in 2A and 1A this year versus the first year???  Already this event has given 20-30 teams who would have NEVER made the IHSAA Team State the chance to be in a great event that I wish all coaches and wrestlers could experience at least once.  The IHSWCA State Duals is a great event and I thank the coaches association for putting in the hard work to make it a reality each year.

[JakeandBreighton]

It seems that some people continue to forget that the IHSWCA State Duals are not a perfect animal but they are what we can have at this time based on IHSAA limitations etc etc.

 

1. we cannot have the event after individual state.

2. we cannot have a multiple week tournament series.

3. we cannot have a waiver to allow more weigh ins (scheduling points) for teams.

 

We have to have a single day event and do the best we can to get the most deserving teams invited.  That can only happen by having some type if a qualifying system in place.  Whether its right or wrong, there is a system and you do control your own destiny.  If your team wrestles well on the mat you can qualify.  If your team does not wrestle well you do not qualify.  Either way, I would rather have this system than a system that includes coaches polls (popularity contests), media polls (very few media outlets cover our sport very well), and any other type of "poll".

 

I will use our team at Evansville Memorial as an example.  The first year of the event we qualified and wrestled to a 2nd place finish losing to a tough Yorktown team in the finals.  Danville was clearly better than us but we got a good "seed" and we won a dual against a great Southmont team and then squeaked by Culver Academy in a tremendous semifinal.  It was a HUGE day for our program.  We were very excited.  We were also young.  We were sitting pretty to qualify again this year but then the sectional day arrived.  We had 3 underclassmen wrestle very poorly and we did not perform anywhere near what we were capable of.  We scored enough to make the "at large voting" list but we were not voted in.  Did I think the committee made a mistake not voting us in?  Yes.  Do I think we would have placed high this year in the 2A team duals had we been voted in? Yes.  However, I also don't have a problem with us not being there because the fact of the matter is that we did not wrestle ourselves into the event based on the system that is in place and we put our fate in the hands of others.

 

The qualifying system we have in place is not perfect but its had a TON of thought put into it.  Its been tweaked here and there and its pretty thorough.  Can a team get left out due to weird little quirky stuff like having 9 seniors in their lineup? Yes...and yes that stinks, but that team qualified this year didn't they?  In the end its about getting 12 "deserving" teams to the event.  Unfortunately there could be more than 12 deserving teams, just like in college football where there will be more than 4 deserving teams to get into the championship event next season.

 

Whether its fair or not, whether it has loopholes or not, you still qualify by how your team performs on the mat and I would rather have that than something else.  As a coach I know going in what my team has to do to qualify.  We can discuss that, we can make sure our team knows what its going to take to qualify and if the chips are stacked against us because we are senior laden or not.  Not everyone gets to qualify every year...some years your chances are better than others.  Its not perfect but its what we got and its 1000 times better than nothing.

 

lastly....one silver lining...look how many new teams wrestled in the event in 2A and 1A this year versus the first year???  Already this event has given 20-30 teams who would have NEVER made the IHSAA Team State the chance to be in a great event that I wish all coaches and wrestlers could experience at least once.  The IHSWCA State Duals is a great event and I thank the coaches association for putting in the hard work to make it a reality each year.

those are some valid points, but again, I don't see the state results, being the same as dual. Ask Penn State or Minnesota about that one.

[samaj]

I think the IHSWCA would concede that a tournament team and a dual meet team are two different things.  I also think that once again they are doing what they can with what they have and the sectional is a consistent starting point for all teams so makes the best sense for a starting place for a qualifying system.  The IHSAA did it that way forever also.  The sectional champions,in an individual scoring system, qualified for the team regional which was an entirely different format.  Once again, your not wrong.  I just don't know if there is a better way of doing it.

[maligned]

Two things:

 

1. The scoring system takes each individual and scores him according to the impact he will have on your DUALS quality next year--not your tournament quality.  If we wanted to score it like a traditional tournament, we could just take the tournament points scored at semi-state by underclassmen and be done with it (like ohio used to do).  It's part of the reason the scores look so strange from week to week.  It's developed completely differently from that.

 

2. I absolutely disagree with Dane (decbell) that teams with a lot of seniors can't or won't qualify for the event.  Perry has 8 seniors and they're going to score enormous points this weekend and get to the event with no problems.  Had we been using this system last year, even with not doing so well by their standards, a 10-senior Bellmont team would have been eligible for the voting for getting in.  If New Prairie had, for example, 8 of their seniors to semi-state or beyond, plus a couple of decent-scoring underclassmen--they would absolutely be right in the hunt.  But they mostly lost last weekend.  You still have to win matches to earn your spot.  Does a senior-laden team have to advance guys, on average, further than a team of underclassmen?  Of course.  But it's far from impossible if you prove your level is one that represents a program that will replace guys well.

[vintagecs]

lastly....one silver lining...look how many new teams wrestled in the event in 2A and 1A this year versus the first year???  Already this event has given 20-30 teams who would have NEVER made the IHSAA Team State the chance to be in a great event that I wish all coaches and wrestlers could experience at least once.  The IHSWCA State Duals is a great event and I thank the coaches association for putting in the hard work to make it a reality each year.

 

Here!  Here!

[cadguy]

all the work that goes into this is impressive and the math even more.  I've been stalking on here for awhile and listening to the hangouts after the fact.  And am still confused by it all.

 

My question is how does Lebanon have 0's for SS and State when they have 5 underclassmen & 1 senior still alive in the tourney. 

 

Full understanding the #'s are unofficial, just trying to understand it all and where the team stands going into this weekend.

 

thanks

[Y2CJ41]

all the work that goes into this is impressive and the math even more.  I've been stalking on here for awhile and listening to the hangouts after the fact.  And am still confused by it all.

 

My question is how does Lebanon have 0's for SS and State when they have 5 underclassmen & 1 senior still alive in the tourney. 

 

Full understanding the #'s are unofficial, just trying to understand it all and where the team stands going into this weekend.

 

thanks

Here is the gist of it

2A wrestlers get 39 for being a semi-state 1st round qualifier

43 for semi-state 2nd round

46 for qualifying for state

 

Zionsville has a 1.24 multiplier all scores up to the 1st round of semi-state.

 

Currently those semi-state qualifiers are sitting at 48.36 points. If they win the the multiplier will come off and they will have 43 points and if they win the second round will have 46 points. Thus, as it is Lebanon will technically lose points if/when their kids win matches on Saturday.

[NICfan]

My thought on it is st Joe for example had 6 underclassmen make it to regionals, np had 3. St Joe had a total of 7 guys, np had 12. At semistate st joe has 1 underclassmen and 1 senior, for a total of 2 np has 1 underclassmen and 3 seniors for a total of 4. St Joe is on the rise as a program for sure, but a head to head match this year would have been ugly, and I'd say I like new prairies odds to replace some of those seniors atleast with regional qualifiers and likely be the better team next year. The difference is st Joe gets to be in consideration,  new prairie who would likely be able to compete, would not.

[spiralride1]

Just looking for clarification here. NOT complaining...trying to learn the system...

 

How can a team win all heir first round matches and gain no points?

 

Also, Princeton for example will LOSE points if their wrestler wins round one. How do you LOSE points for winning?

 

Why is there such a huge difference in the amount if possible points for the top 3 teams? Memorial 40, Mt. Vernon 12, Yorktown 131. What gives?

[cadguy]

Here is the gist of it

2A wrestlers get 39 for being a semi-state 1st round qualifier

43 for semi-state 2nd round

46 for qualifying for state

 

Zionsville has a 1.24 multiplier all scores up to the 1st round of semi-state.

 

Currently those semi-state qualifiers are sitting at 48.36 points. If they win the the multiplier will come off and they will have 43 points and if they win the second round will have 46 points. Thus, as it is Lebanon will technically lose points if/when their kids win matches on Saturday.

 

Thanks Joe, that helped.

 

[Y2CJ41]

Just looking for clarification here. NOT complaining...trying to learn the system...

 

How can a team win all heir first round matches and gain no points?

There is an explanation two posts above, please read that.

 

Also, Princeton for example will LOSE points if their wrestler wins round one. How do you LOSE points for winning?

See above. Also, you must realize that this system isn't a typical win and you gain points. If you have a high multiplier your points will be adjusted at the semi-state round. Basically, you are seeing the math in progress instead of just the final answer.

 

 

Why is there such a huge difference in the amount if possible points for the top 3 teams? Memorial 40, Mt. Vernon 12, Yorktown 131. What gives?

Because of the number of wrestlers still alive and the respective multipliers for each team. Yorktown's sectional has a low multiplier, so they can gain a TON of points....add to that 14 wrestlers still alive.

[maligned]

Thanks for the explanation, Joe.  He's right.  We publish the points each week as "unofficial estimates" of the current progress of teams. 

 

The MULTIPLIER is a TEAM ADJUSTMENT that's always "IN-PROGRESS" UNTIL AFTER SEMI-STATE.  It is NOT an INDIVIDUAL ADJUSTMENT.

(I'm capitalizing for clarity...not trying to yell.)

In fact, it can be possible in a rare circumstance for a team to take a small step backward after semi-state, because the team's appropriate strength is reined in a little bit.  It's once again part of the reason scores appear strange the first couple weeks (especially in 3A) until teams have a chance to prove their true worth.

 

We posted the "available points"...thanks for the idea, Dane (decbell)!...because we wanted people to get a better sense of who has been held back a bit by multipliers and who still has a lot to gain going forward.  It doesn't make sense to people how someone like Bellmont or Perry or Cathedral is further down the list to this point until you see the "potential" that's still there for them compared to everyone else.

[spiralride1]

Why does the multiplier come off?

[maligned]

Why does the multiplier come off?

 

It doesn't affect the portion of your team that reaches the second round of semi-state and beyond...that's what we mean.  It has a profound impact for those teams who have advanced many guys to semi-state, but who have been held back a bit to this point by a low multiplier.  Every win this weekend brings a big jump in team points.

[nkraus]

Maybe, I missed this, but why can Garrett not score any more points?  It says 0 if we win first round of SS and 0 if we advance all to state.  One kid is a sophomore and one kid is a junior.  Let me know.  Thanks.

[Fabio Jr.]

Here is the gist of it

2A wrestlers get 39 for being a semi-state 1st round qualifier

43 for semi-state 2nd round

46 for qualifying for state

 

Zionsville has a 1.24 multiplier all scores up to the 1st round of semi-state.

 

Currently those semi-state qualifiers are sitting at 48.36 points. If they win the the multiplier will come off and they will have 43 points and if they win the second round will have 46 points. Thus, as it is Lebanon will technically lose points if/when their kids win matches on Saturday.

[CMorgan]

If a team enters of forfeit for the state tournament, Does that team still get the sectional (no place) points?

[littlevito]

If a team enters of forfeit for the state tournament, Does that team still get the sectional (no place) points?

 

It is entered as NONE, and no points are scored.