Indiana kids in Ohio and Illinois state championships

[Jayruss]

I keep hearing how amazing Illinois and Ohio's high school wrestling is compared to Indiana, but as shown at the IHPO, I believe we stack up well especially pound for pound.  What current Indiana high school wrestlers do you believe can place in the top 4, and who could win the if they were in Illinois or Ohio?

[Fabio Jr.]

Our top guys can go toe to toe with their top...but their depth is what makes them so much better you get to the lower places (5-6-7-8) they blow us out of the water.  Look at fargo results...we had a total of 10 freestyle AA's. not terrible. But Ohio had 18. and Illinois had 37. Those 10 were our upper echelon guys... those places just have more. That's why they are thought of as better than us.

[Y2CJ41]

Our champions would hold their own in almost any other state's tournament. The difference is our mid to low placers would be heavily outclassed. At the top end we have very talented wrestlers, but the drop off is significant from there. Our depth is not as good as states like Ohio, Illinois or Pennsylvania.  That is why these states take what they would call subpar teams to events like Cadet/Junior duals and still have very good showings.

[nkraus]

I agree with Fabio and Y2 100%

[nkraus]

Obviously however, there is disparity from class to class.  For example, I'm sure Illinois or Ohio people claim that one of their "classes" is better than another "class."  I.E. Division 1 is better than Division 2..etc.

[Fabio Jr.]

You could say that sorta..but in ohio for example St Eds is d1 and St Paris Graham is d2...those two schools are leaps and bounds ahead most. Usually the difference between classes again comes back to depth. The level of kids winning are pretty close but its a huge difference at the lower parts of the podium....at least that's what everyone in college told me

[lpd096]

Indiana's Champs would fare well in those states, no doubt about it. The CULTURE of wrestling is different, I don't want to beat a dead horse (Regarding my disdain for the IHSAA and their support for wrestling) but when a state athletic association DROPS team state, that sends a clear message on where the priorities are at. Just a "no-brainer" decision like wrestle-backs is resisted and fought against. I could go on and on but we've all heard it before. It's a shame because in the end, it's the wrestlers who are hurt the most.

[Fabio Jr.]

100% correct...Its no secret that Ohio is one of the Powerhouse states...They just recently started a sanctioned team tournament. they previously did what we have now. The only way we can make large steps in the right direction is if we get cooperation from the IHSAA. Not giving a one weigh in waiver for a dual championship, the stupid travel restrictions, their idea of wrestle backs (while they were a step, but then they backtacked) are all just reasons that we will forever be an average to above average contender in the national spotlight. We need to build that depth and the only way to do it is to allow larger number of kids to participate and compete with the best.

[lpd096]

Fabio, you bring up another good point...the travel restrictions. For the life of me, I just don't get it. I would love to see Indiana's best teams at the DVORAK, CHEESEHEAD, CLASH, IRONMAN, BEAST of the EAST, etc. > >

[Y2CJ41]

Wrestle-backs, travel restrictions and team state aren't reasons why we are a top 10-15 wrestling state.

 

Here are some reasons why we are not as good as we could be.

1. Lay Coaches- I don't know the exact number, but can safely say we probably hover around the 50% mark in lay coaches. This hurts because while there are many great lay coaches, being a teacher helps tremendously in coaching athletes.

 

2. Coaches not progressing- The attendance at our IHSWCA clinics is atrocious especially for anyone past the Indy area. Coaches are not taking advantage of learning new and up to date techniques from great clinicians. This is also evident in some coaches absolute disdain for the international styles. If a coach isn't going to take the time to teach and learn freestyle techniques is he going to spend time learning new leg riding techniques? Trying something new doesn't hurt anyone and getting out of your comfort zone is not all bad. Many of our coaches are doing the same things they have been doing for the past 15-20 years and the same things THEIR coach did 20-30 years ago. Of course that leads to the same results over and over again.

 

3.  Culture aka Basketball- I think we are making some headway in this regard with the internet and such, but it is something we will ALWAYS have to battle. Basketball is easy, anyone can do it, wrestling is not easy and while everyone can do it, most cannot DO it.

 

4. Youth programs- Our top youth wrestlers are doing great in tournaments around the country, but overall our youth programs are not very good. In our surrounding states they consistently have coaches that have had high level success at the high school or college levels. Our youth programs are usually ran by whichever dad we can find to help out and they most likely have about as much wrestling experience as my mom.

 

5. The Good 'ole Boys Club- Over the past five years I have seen this dwindle down, but I still see the effects of it on a consistent basis. Being "in" with some of the select few in this state can get you some nice perks in terms of awards and recognition. If you aren't "in" with these people it tends to be harder to break down that barrier.

[Y2CJ41]

Fabio, you bring up another good point...the travel restrictions. For the life of me, I just don't get it. I would love to see Indiana's best teams at the DVORAK, CHEESEHEAD, CLASH, IRONMAN, BEAST of the EAST, etc. > >

This is the weakest argument for why we don't have the depth that other states have. Especially these days there are NUMEROUS events that a kid can go to in the offseason that are just as good if not better than these events. On top of that how many Indiana teams would be invited to these events if we were allowed to attend? At most maybe one or two and that doesn't really improve our state that much.

[jchas]

We have 2 guys representing the US in the world games this week.  By percentage that makes us one of the best wrestling states.

[quinnsDAD]

I don't know your mom but I'm sure she has more wrestling experience than I do!

[Y2CJ41]

We have 2 guys representing the US in the world games this week.  By percentage that makes us one of the best wrestling states.

Pennsylvania and Ohio have only one, does that make us twice as good as Pennsylvania and Ohio?

[wolfpackwrestling]

Yes, but take my answer with a large grain of salt as I am only a lowly, less than human, lay coach.

[Jayruss]

Some great feedback, learning a lot here

[lpd096]

This is the weakest argument for why we don't have the depth that other states have. Especially these days there are NUMEROUS events that a kid can go to in the offseason that are just as good if not better than these events. On top of that how many Indiana teams would be invited to these events if we were allowed to attend? At most maybe one or two and that doesn't really improve our state that much.

 

Y2, I think you missed my point. I was merely making a case for the IHSAA's attitude toward our sport i.e. the reasons I mentioned, I was not saying this as the reason Indiana is not an upper echelon state. Although, I do feel it is a culmination of issues and it is a trickle down effect, if the leadership (IHSAA) in your state is not committed to your sport, it will have a negative effect.

 

If I had to name the MAJOR reason, it is the youth wrestling structure and the commitment. I know in IL, there is FIERCE competition for the Novice and Senior division team titles and their IKWF state individual series is unbelievable! They have a raised platform for their finals (just like the NCAAs) and IL has some of the best coaches in the nation at the YOUTH level which is not seen in most states. You couple this with the long history and tradition of IL youth wrestling, it is definitely an advantage. Brian Murphy (Glenbard North) who was runner-up this year in IL and past Fargo Freestyle Champ (Michigan signee) has said that his match in the IKWF finals was one of the most memorable of his career and this is a kid who has wrestled in every major event. It just shows the impact and effectiveness of IL youth programs, tournament, etc.

 

I agree 100% regarding basketball. Indiana will always embrace this sport.

 

With all of this said though, Indiana still does a pretty good job of producing many great champions and there are A LOT of folks both in the IHSWCA and the ISWA who have dedicated most of their lives to Indiana wrestling as well as the parents. I've always maintained that Indiana is a Top 12 state, year in, year out.

[TripleB]

Pennsylvania and Ohio have only one, does that make us twice as good as Pennsylvania and Ohio?

 

Yes it does

[nkraus]

There's a few other things that factor as well.  Somebody started a thread "Head Coaches Who Coach Football."  Personally, I coach football, wrestling, more than likely middle school wrestling again, and I'm the weights coordinator.  While this has limited some of the things I would like to do with wrestling, it has also allowed me to recruit more athletes to wrestle at our school, which in turn will make our program more successful down the road.  Three sport athletes also limit the potential of wrestlers, but at a smaller school, it's not ethical to encourage a kid to wrestle year round or specialize.  These kids are young and the percentage of kids who actually get scholarships isn't that high.  Eventually, however, something will have to change in order to find ways to make the wrestlers as successful as possible.

[Y2CJ41]

Y2, I think you missed my point. I was merely making a case for the IHSAA's attitude toward our sport i.e. the reasons I mentioned, I was not saying this as the reason Indiana is not an upper echelon state. Although, I do feel it is a culmination of issues and it is a trickle down effect, if the leadership (IHSAA) in your state is not committed to your sport, it will have a negative effect.

 

If I had to name the MAJOR reason, it is the youth wrestling structure and the commitment. I know in IL, there is FIERCE competition for the Novice and Senior division team titles and their IKWF state individual series is unbelievable! They have a raised platform for their finals (just like the NCAAs) and IL has some of the best coaches in the nation at the YOUTH level which is not seen in most states. You couple this with the long history and tradition of IL youth wrestling, it is definitely an advantage. Brian Murphy (Glenbard North) who was runner-up this year in IL and past Fargo Freestyle Champ (Michigan signee) has said that his match in the IKWF finals was one of the most memorable of his career and this is a kid who has wrestled in every major event. It just shows the impact and effectiveness of IL youth programs, tournament, etc.

 

I agree 100% regarding basketball. Indiana will always embrace this sport.

 

With all of this said though, Indiana still does a pretty good job of producing many great champions and there are A LOT of folks both in the IHSWCA and the ISWA who have dedicated most of their lives to Indiana wrestling as well as the parents. I've always maintained that Indiana is a Top 12 state, year in, year out.

I know you have a high disdain for the IHSAA, but the reality is it comes down to coaching and coaching development.  Having wrestle-backs isn't going to make our state any better on a national scale.  The same goes for team state or an extra weigh-in for IHSWCA team state. The way we will improve is through our coaches development. If our coaches aren't learning or applying the new wrestling and training techniques it won't help us one bit. 

[1oldwrestler]

More than one person on this thread said that our champs would "hold their own" in ohio and illinois. What is the definition of holding one's own?  (Insert joke here) But seriously, how many of our champs would be champs in Ohio and Illinois? And Im talking about putting our champs in the large school class of both those states.  Is holding our own is measured by how many of our champs would double as champs or how many of our champs would place in the top four. Im just curious what people think.

[Fabio Jr.]

they would be competitive. might go 50-50 in a series...that's how i meant it. i don't think we would go in and tech fall evereyone

[maligned]

they would be competitive. might go 50-50 in a series...that's how i meant it. i don't think we would go in and tech fall evereyone

 

I definitely disagree with this.  I think it would be more like 10-4 or 9-5 against both states, on average.  Both states' champions are virtually always nationally ranked or beat nationally ranked guys to win state.  We typically have only about 7-9 of our weights with top 20 nationally ranked guys.  Assume we lose 5-1 in weights where they have nationally ranked guys and we don't.  Then assume we get another 3 or 4 wins from 8 weights where we both have nationally relevant guys but they're usually ranked higher.  We end up with 4 or 5 wins at best. 

We are clearly top 15, often top 10 in the country, but we are not in the same league with Ohio and Illinois (2 of the top 3 with Pennsylvania).  The argument that we're just as good at the top is way overstated in my opinion.

 

Looking at the OH vs. IN example below, it looks like we would be very clear underdogs in 7 weights, clear favorites in 2 weights; and there are 5 tossup weights.  That gets us 4.5 victories on average.

 

Intermat rankings from April:

Ohio vs. Indiana

4 vs. 6

11 vs. 1

1 vs. NR

15 vs. NR

2 vs. 20

14 vs. 16

7 vs. 6

4 vs. 20

2 vs. NR

NR vs. NR

1 vs. NR

15 vs. 3

7 vs. 19

14 vs. 13

[Big Bob 77]

I know you have a high disdain for the IHSAA, but the reality is it comes down to coaching and coaching development.  Having wrestle-backs isn't going to make our state any better on a national scale.  The same goes for team state or an extra weigh-in for IHSWCA team state. The way we will improve is through our coaches development. If our coaches aren't learning or applying the new wrestling and training techniques it won't help us one bit.

 

Basketball is the #1 factor and #1 in our state and the fact it runs during wrestling season kills wrestling, and now throw in that Indiana is now becoming a huge top notch football recruiting area. There are only so many kids people, but I feel the best help we could get are from these bball coaches keeping 6" johnny at the end of his bench to never see the court instead of telling him hey go try something else, because you are to good of a athlete to just be sitting. But that will never happen because he's there to win bball games and not to help out other programs I guess.LMO

[lpd096]

It's hard to tell year-to-year just how IN's champs would do vs. Ohio/IL's champs (in a dual) because we never go Champ vs. Champ only seniors vs. seniors or when the opportunity presents itself to go Champs vs. Champs, one or both states won't have a full lineup with state champs.

 

This year in IL, they probably have one of the strongest senior classes in a long time and don't surprised if they make a run at TEAM USA in their dual (IL vs. USA). Rossi, Jimenez, Alber, Cortez, Brill, Mahomes, the list goes on. A couple of years ago, Indiana had a real strong class, perhaps the best ever to come out of this state.

 

When I say "be competitive" with other state's champs I believe IN can stay in the match...meaning within 2-5 pts in some cases and other cases, not so much. It depends on the YEAR and the strength of the state champs for that period of time.