1oldwrestler Posted July 27, 2013 Share Posted July 27, 2013 Yippee that means you can find more kids that want to go to the Grand River World Championships. Just curious why you find it necessary to bash a nice opportunity for kids to get a bunch of matches under their belts over a two day period. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TripleB Posted July 27, 2013 Share Posted July 27, 2013 The pin statistic shouldn't apply. Had T-shirts and Angel had been pinners I imagine they would have had numbers in the high nineties. They were takedown guys. I wonder how many Howe woulda pinned if he wasn't a grinder? I'm not saying those three were better than Coach Ellis. I never got the opportunity to see him. They are all great in their own way. I'll take Jason Fryar has the greatest High School wrestler from Indiana. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MattM Posted July 27, 2013 Share Posted July 27, 2013 The pin statistic shouldn't apply. Had T-shirts and Angel had been pinners I imagine they would have had numbers in the high nineties. They were takedown guys. I wonder how many Howe woulda pinned if he wasn't a grinder? I'm not saying those three were better than Coach Ellis. I never got the opportunity to see him. They are all great in their own way. I'll take Jason Fryar has the greatest High School wrestler from Indiana. In the matches they didn't finish with a pin I would imagine the TF percentage for guys like Tsirtsis (both), Escobedo, and Howe is in the upper 90%. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Powerline Posted July 28, 2013 Share Posted July 28, 2013 I second that. Not to mention the fear he instilled in his opponents. Is it his fault other's were not taught the universal counter to the lateral drop. I'll add today I can go on youtube and scout the kid from around the corner. In those days you were dealing with videotape and it took a guru to have tape on superior opponents. So a kid from Montana was a mystery to Ellis. Is there any old tape on this guy. He had a flare and a swagger to boot; made Market Square electric. Numbers don't lie: in high school in ISHAA competition there was none greater. Only 26 guys got away in 4 years. People said he wrestled no greats. Mark Rosenbalm won state. Wrestled at Purdue. The kid from Rushville,Scott Wilson State Champ . He beat Scott Shultz 2x runner one of the best to never win. I can go on and on........ Definitely some strong back-up, but remember Angel is State Record holder with 156 pins, won all his matches, except for a loss out-of-state his Freshman year I think. However, the deciding criteria for me is that he was so dominant, he immediately was an NCAA All-American and had NCAA finishes of 1st, 3rd, 4th, 5th, 3x Big 10 Champion. If Ellis had followed up his awesome High-School Career with similar or even less credentials, that I could have given him the nod. I saw them both wrestle many, many times, and they were both freaks. I knew after seeing Angel his Freshman year, that he would be better than Big T-Shirts after High School because of his explosiveness and athleticism, and while you could tell he loved the sport, when he wrestled he was emotionally even-keeled. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Bob 77 Posted July 28, 2013 Share Posted July 28, 2013 The pin statistic shouldn't apply. Had T-shirts and Angel had been pinners I imagine they would have had numbers in the high nineties. They were takedown guys. I wonder how many Howe woulda pinned if he wasn't a grinder? I'm not saying those three were better than Coach Ellis. I never got the opportunity to see him. They are all great in their own way. I'll take Jason Fryar has the greatest High School wrestler from Indiana. What do you mean pin stats shouldn't apply, what should apply how cool of a singlet he wore? lol Your right they were all great in their own way, but that pin percentage separated Lance from others in Indiana High School Wrestling! If you meant entire careers then that should have been the thread but it wasn't... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpt189 Posted July 28, 2013 Share Posted July 28, 2013 angel's loss was his junior year Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TripleB Posted July 28, 2013 Share Posted July 28, 2013 I was just saying that if the others wanted to rack up pins then they could have. That opens a whole other topic on what's better pin or techs? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Bob 77 Posted July 28, 2013 Share Posted July 28, 2013 I was just saying that if the others wanted to rack up pins then they could have. That opens a whole other topic on what's better pin or techs? Maybe they could or couldn't have and it's still not the point, the point is you have to use actual stats and info that are facts and not judge this thread on woulda, coulda, shoulda, and nobody matches Lance's Indiana High School credentials...Imo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KarlHungus Posted July 28, 2013 Share Posted July 28, 2013 I think TripleB is saying it does matter. With different rules it brings other varibles. Cy Young has the most wins in baseball history but no one would say he is the best pitcher of all time. Emmitt Smith has the most yards rushing but no one is saying he is greatest RB of all time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Bob 77 Posted July 28, 2013 Share Posted July 28, 2013 I think TripleB is saying it does matter. With different rules it brings other varibles. Cy Young has the most wins in baseball history but no one would say he is the best pitcher of all time. Emmitt Smith has the most yards rushing but no one is saying he is greatest RB of all time. My opinion isn't based on most wins either and that's my point, Triple B wanted to disregard Lance's pin percentage which at 85% certainly sets him apart from the others. These are all opinions and we all have one, and I think Triple B is capable of telling us what he's trying to say Karl, lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1oldwrestler Posted July 28, 2013 Share Posted July 28, 2013 I think TripleB is saying it does matter. With different rules it brings other varibles. Cy Young has the most wins in baseball history but no one would say he is the best pitcher of all time. Emmitt Smith has the most yards rushing but no one is saying he is greatest RB of all time. Im no emmit smith guy (payton was was my guy) but I think, based on the all time rushing record alone, you could easily argue smith WAS the greatest of all time. You have to throw brown/simpson/payton/etc into the discussion but that rushing title carries a lot of weight, imo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GenHeavyHandz Posted July 28, 2013 Share Posted July 28, 2013 I saw them both wrestle many, many times, and they were both freaks. I knew after seeing Angel his Freshman year, that he would be better than Big T-Shirts after High School because of his explosiveness and athleticism, and while you could tell he loved the sport, when he wrestled he was emotionally even-keeled. Strong points. I'll counter with this: Cael Sanderson was even-keeled. Joe Williams was laid back.Kyle Dake is cocky. Tom Brands was a hot head. I'll take any of them. Aye, Ellis walked around like he owned Market Square and why shouldn't he have? It was his hometown. But I digress. Let's look at this objectively and on topic. If Ellis would have wrestled as many matches as Angel he would have had dozens more of additional falls. I don't know how many techs he had he didn't get many opportunities. Again if we're talking college careers Angel and Howe and a number of others get the Nod. In the Hoosier State I can't believe this is still being discussed. Indiana's greatest High School Wrestler is Lance Ellis. Freshman year techs his opponent in the finals. Sophomore year has the best and closest match of career(many had him losing) beats Faroute 3-2 people keep talking about entertaining matches maybe I'm a dinosaur..again any tape on this guy? Junior year Majors the Great Mark Rosenbalm. Grand Finale? Pins a future State Champion Scott Wilson to polish off a Historic career. I saw Angel wrestle and I as a coach can appreciate great position and technique. It's not just the way Elllis won. It was how he did it. No one could remember the last 4x state champ it was a rare feat then. Angel had seen a guy from his high school do it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KarlHungus Posted July 28, 2013 Share Posted July 28, 2013 Your opinion was based on one specific stat, pin percentage. My opinion, and TripleBs, i think, is that the scoring rules have changed and just using pin percentage might not be the most apt stat line to use. And furhermore, Gen Heavy Hands has proclaimed me as the Yoda of this message board so i CLEARLY have the wisdom to interpret the posts of fellow Star Wars geek Triple B. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KarlHungus Posted July 28, 2013 Share Posted July 28, 2013 1old, I personally would rank payton,brown, sanders ahead of emmitt. I would guess most 'experts' would have emmitt in the middle of any top 10 list even though he holds the record. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TripleB Posted July 29, 2013 Share Posted July 29, 2013 We are not allowed to use woulda couldas so we cant say what Coach Ellis could have done w more matches... Correct Karl is.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KarlHungus Posted July 29, 2013 Share Posted July 29, 2013 The Force is strong in you my young padawan. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Bob 77 Posted July 29, 2013 Share Posted July 29, 2013 We are not allowed to use woulda couldas so we cant say what Coach Ellis could have done w more matches... Correct Karl is.... My woulda, coulda was in reference to what you suggested of what your nominee's might have done if they tried, so accept defeat you self proclaimed geeks! My opinion also was not based purely on his 85% pin percentage which speaks for itself, but combined with 177-0 record and 4X state champ nuff said, and I now refuse to argue with you Yoda's anymore. Lance Ellis is the correct answer to this thread, lol Yes, this is all in good fun... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1oldwrestler Posted July 29, 2013 Share Posted July 29, 2013 1old, I personally would rank payton,brown, sanders ahead of emmitt. I would guess most 'experts' would have emmitt in the middle of any top 10 list even though he holds the record. Of hear ya yoda. Payton oss my #1 but im incredibly biased admittedly. I believe smith would have to.be top 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fay Posted July 29, 2013 Share Posted July 29, 2013 Jason Tsirtsis beating Cashe as a Freshman after Cashe was dominating everybody for the last two plus years puts him at number 1 IMO. Also he won Fargo as a Junior going into his senior year. Sliga, Howe, Alex, Angel all lost at Fargo after their Junior year. Ellis was a stud how did he do in the off season against out of state competition? Also Jason dominated at Dapper Dan and Dream Team. But the Cashe win puts him ahead of the others. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Bob 77 Posted July 29, 2013 Share Posted July 29, 2013 Jason Tsirtsis beating Cashe as a Freshman after Cashe was dominating everybody for the last two plus years puts him at number 1 IMO. Also he won Fargo as a Junior going into his senior year. Sliga, Howe, Alex, Angel all lost at Fargo after their Junior year. Ellis was a stud how did he do in the off season against out of state competition? Also Jason dominated at Dapper Dan and Dream Team. But the Cashe win puts him ahead of the others. He beat this Gruenwad dude who wrestled for the USA in the Olympics, and Ty Moore 4X PA state champ,and Alan Fried who I think was National Champ for Oklahoma State, but again I think this is off topic of this thread but you did ask the question, lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NICfan Posted July 29, 2013 Share Posted July 29, 2013 He beat this Gruenwad dude who wrestled for the USA in the Olympics, and Ty Moore 4X PA state champ,and Alan Fried who I think was National Champ for Oklahoma State, but again I think this is off topic of this thread but you did ask the question, lol I dont think its off topic at all. To determine the best high school wrestler, you probably need to look at what they did during their hs years (including off season). But in the end no one is going to agree anyways so why does it matter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GenHeavyHandz Posted July 29, 2013 Share Posted July 29, 2013 1old, I personally would rank payton,brown, sanders ahead of emmitt. I would guess most 'experts' would have emmitt in the middle of any top 10 list even though he holds the record. Me sa say Yoda correct. Me sa Bears fan yet would me sa go 1.Brown(Best LaCrosse player ever and I know about Thorpe)2.Barry Sanders(plenty of ankles have never healed)3. Sweetness(The nick name says it all). But what do I know? " Yoda holds you with such high esteem," said Count Dooku. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TIME Posted July 29, 2013 Share Posted July 29, 2013 Big Bob, I 100% agree with you. Ellis was cocky, most people don't like that, ( B. ) but some of us loved it. My memory is still pretty sharp, I recall the days he destroyed the competition. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Y2CJ41 Posted July 29, 2013 Share Posted July 29, 2013 Does anyone have any video on Ellis? I know some of us younger folk don't appreciate what he did as much due to not seeing it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ENoblewrestling Posted July 29, 2013 Share Posted July 29, 2013 I have always been an Estell Ritter guy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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