Indiana's greatest high school wrestler

[WrestleMan]

Got to respectfully disagree. Angel Escobedo would be by far tops due to both his high school and collegiate career and it's not even close.  Ellis had an incredible high school feat, and was tough as nails, but Angel had a bit more athleticism.

 

Angel Escobedo - State record holder for Most Pins, 156, Career Record of 223 wins, 4x State Champion

College - Angel Escobedo 4x All-American, NCAA finishes of 1st, 3rd, 4th, 5th, 3x Big 10 Champion

And he wasn't a little hot-head.

Hard to argue with that.

[Powerline]

I was looking for this list and thought I was loosing my mind -- glad to see that it did exist.

 

Bring it back!!! It would make discussion like this som much easier.

 

On the combination of in state and out of state accomplishments during high school years,

Sliga may have the best combination

2x state champ, 2x 3rd (only losses in state were to state finalists that were 2-4 years older)

5 - Fargo championships; 1 Fila-cadet; cadet triple crown winner; USAW cadet folkstyle national champ;

(non-championship accolades include 2x Fila Junior AA - with victories over D1 wrestlers including at least 1 NCAA qualifier; 5th in Fila Cadet's worlds) 

 

Jason Tsirtsis probably has the overall most impressive victories durring his high school years.

4x State champ (his freshman year run at the state finals maybe the most impressive ever as a freshman - beating the returning state champ that went on to win Fargo Juniors that summer and was runner-up at senior nationals)

1 Fargo Title (Junior - 4x AA I believe); Fila Cadet National Champion; 2x Flonationals Champ; Won Dapper Dan and Dream Team All-start Matches, 2012 Intermat's high school wrestler of the year

Runner up at Super32 (twice i think)

Wins at senior level while still in high school (In and Olympic team qualifier - he beat Former D1 national Champ - Unbelievable; barely missed out on qualifying for olympic team trials)

 

Best combination? I think no doubt Sliga is a fine wrestler and a great athlete, and he could be considered one of the best big man but I think we should wait to rank him until his college career is done, which I hope is a great one. But, my justification is this:

 

#1 - No big man should ever be in the top 5; the competition and depth is just not that good as the light and middle weights.

      Rarely are the guys at his weight training year round in wrestling. For every 197 lb'r wrestling year round, there are twenty

      138 lb'rs.

 

#2 - He only won two Titles and never really beat a state champ or had tough weight classes with much depth of returning placers or

      finalists. He had a great Fargo this year, but if I recall, last year  he got thrown around like a rag doll at Fargo.

 

#3 - Some like to use the fact he was younger in a typical Jr. / Sr. weight class as a justification to not winning more Titles, but the same could be used against him as he had 4 years in the same weight class. He was far more physically mature, and I support what some said in that in freestyle, he was able to beat up on tub-a-lards in the Cadet ranks.

 

But to say he is the best is a premature analysis with limited historical respect.  For big men, some of the all-timer he would have to beat out:

 

> Bud Palmer - Muncie - 2x State Champ, 3rd and 2nd for Iowa at NCAA's in mid 1970's

> John Ginther - 2X state champ Delta, 3x NCAA AA for Arizona State

> Keith Davison - Chesterton - 2X State Champ, 3rd and 5th at NCAA's for Wisconsin

> Mark Whitehead - Warsaw - NCAA Runner-up for Northwestern

>Traicoff - Gary - Several time NCAA placer in the 1930's

[Y2CJ41]

 

#1 - No big man should ever be in the top 5; the competition and depth is just not that good as the light and middle weights.

      Rarely are the guys at his weight training year round in wrestling. For every 197 lb'r wrestling year round, there are twenty

      138 lb'rs.

 

 

Just one quick question, if it is so easy to be a good upper weight why are there rarely state qualifiers and placers as freshman or sophomores at these weights?

[NICfan]

Imo we have to wait to see sliga in college. Just based off high school, I can't give it to him. Yes he's a 5 time fargo champ, but his junior year was rough, and at fargo this year the only ranked wrestler he had that I saw was ranked 16th (based off intermat rankings).  He didn't have the competion which isn't his fault, but I just cant justify putting him ahead of jason, who nearly teched the number 2 ranked wrestler in the nation, among many other big time wins.

[grecoref]

Best combination? I think no doubt Sliga is a fine wrestler and a great athlete, and he could be considered one of the best big man but I think we should wait to rank him until his college career is done, which I hope is a great one. But, my justification is this:

 

#1 - No big man should ever be in the top 5; the competition and depth is just not that good as the light and middle weights.

      Rarely are the guys at his weight training year round in wrestling. For every 197 lb'r wrestling year round, there are twenty

      138 lb'rs.

 

#2 - He only won two Titles and never really beat a state champ or had tough weight classes with much depth of returning placers or

      finalists. He had a great Fargo this year, but if I recall, last year  he got thrown around like a rag doll at Fargo.

 

#3 - Some like to use the fact he was younger in a typical Jr. / Sr. weight class as a justification to not winning more Titles, but the same could be used against him as he had 4 years in the same weight class. He was far more physically mature, and I support what some said in that in freestyle, he was able to beat up on tub-a-lards in the Cadet ranks.

 

But to say he is the best is a premature analysis with limited historical respect.  For big men, some of the all-timer he would have to beat out:

 

> Bud Palmer - Muncie - 2x State Champ, 3rd and 2nd for Iowa at NCAA's in mid 1970's

> John Ginther - 2X state champ Delta, 3x NCAA AA for Arizona State

> Keith Davison - Chesterton - 2X State Champ, 3rd and 5th at NCAA's for Wisconsin

> Mark Whitehead - Warsaw - NCAA Runner-up for Northwestern

>Traicoff - Gary - Several time NCAA placer in the 1930's

 

He also finished 5th in the 2012 Cadet World Championships, so he got to throw around "tub-a-lards" from all over the planet.

You don't have to agree he's at the top, but comments like that are just plain wrong.

[TripleB]

 

#1 - No big man should ever be in the top 5; the competition and depth is just not that good as the light and middle weights.

      Rarely are the guys at his weight training year round in wrestling. For every 197 lb'r wrestling year round, there are twenty

      138 lb'rs.

 

Typical "skinny" rhetoric.

[BBW2009]

time< i dont think you really know me too talk to me like that! should have said no? ellis didnt wrestle anyone in high school worth mentioning! didnt say he ren from competition at all , the competition avoided him too be honest. in this generation giving up your leg too throw someone wouldnt work especially against a quality opponent! he couldnt compete at the college level nor the national level so mr. time whoever you are keep your druggy comments too yourself thats not something i involved myself with nor do my kids! pretty disrespectful and very unclassy!

[Cosgrove]

Yeah i take jason over sliga on to what he has done but best overall EVER idk alot of great wrestlers have come out of our state there are three timers that could have very well been four timers and just to much to go into on here

[Powerline]

Just one quick question, if it is so easy to be a good upper weight why are there rarely state qualifiers and placers as freshman or sophomores at these weights?

 

Not enough guys have the size, physical maturity, toughness, and technique at that age. The pool is limited.

 

In the lighter weights, you can see many cases where pure offensive technique guys can overcome strength, and physical maturity.

At the same time, the ability to score defensively is a premium or luxury.  (Great example is how Tsirstis - his ability to score off of counter is what I believe set him apart as he moved from light weight to middle weights.)

 

In the middle weights, it's technique, strength, and pound-for-pound nasty toughness. A balance of offensive accomplishment

and defensive ability are required. These weights can just be all out brawls and street fights. A lot of matches in the state finals where the tougher guy beat out the technique guy.

 

For the upper weights my theory is this:

#1 - You don't see that many kids with that size as Freshman and Sophomores. The guys that do stay in wrestling and are not lost to

      football are pretty good athletes (in Sliga's case, great athletes) but not enough of them stay in the sport. So having one like

      Sliga who was way more mature, better technique, wrestled year round, is rare.  But 90% of the big guys he wrestles just do

      not get the reps and number of year round matches to be polished and fluid like Sliga (which is also a prop to Sliga's work ethic).

 

#2 - Raw Strength, Maturity, and defensive ability in the upper weights can overcome a decent technique guy. These guys are

        basically linebackers who wrestle.  The difference is they might not have 100 moves like Sliga, but they know how to use what

        they do.  But the guys who have offensive skills at that weight are a premium

 

In Sliga's Freshman and Sophomore years, his technique got him almost all the way, but he ran into some guys (Atwood, Stevenson)  who had just enough offense to score and were strong enough to counter his really good offense (he still was technically superior), and much of that was due to just 'old man strength' and brute toughness.  But by his Jr. year, you saw a transformation from technique and good strength to where he was just better defensively and was just plain meaner.  Don't know the guy personally but he seemed more mature, wanted to pin guys and put them away, a sense of urgency.

 

But if you look at guys with good technique that have been able to let their bodies grow, they do pretty good in the bigger weights if they can adjust to the strength required and had good defensive technique.  Take a guy like Brian Harvey who goes from 103 to State Champ at 160.  A better example is the number of college guys in the MAC who were pretty good middle weights in high school, but perhaps not top rated due to depth in the wight class. They go off to a MAC School or East Coast Conference, get huge, and are stud 184 / 197 lb'rs in the NCAA.

 

In college, I think he can be special because he will stay at 197 lb for years, which is rare. The cycle starts again.

[fwrestler]

Just one quick question, if it is so easy to be a good upper weight why are there rarely state qualifiers and placers as freshman or sophomores at these weights?

 

Just one more quick question, why are juniors and seniors automatically considered "better" wrestlers than freshmen or sophomores?  Here we go again with the lightweight vs. heavyweight debate, but I can't resist saying something every time it comes up.  Just to keep this post somewhat on topic though, I'll go out on a limb and say that, as a freshman, Jason Tsirtsis was a more skilled wrestler than any heavyweight that has ever wrestled in Indiana at any point in his high school career.

 

Edit: Powerline, you might have just become my favorite poster on this board.

[Powerline]

He also finished 5th in the 2012 Cadet World Championships, so he got to throw around "tub-a-lards" from all over the planet.

You don't have to agree he's at the top, but comments like that are just plain wrong.

Did not say he was a great wrestler and was not near the top.  But in the last 10 years, there are been 5 - 3x champs, and 4-4x champs with a few of them currently having success at the Olympic National level, and none of that was presented in the argument.

 

To the question of Sliga, for his age at Cadet, where the variance in maturity at the light weights is small, Sliga definitely was more mature than the group at the Cadet and high school and national level;  Most Freshman-Sophomores at 195-210 pounds are pudgy tub-a-lards who have not matured yet, not coordinated due to the size, and if they are they focus on football or basketball. 

 

You could see he initially had it tougher at the Jr. level with the bigger variance in maturity.  But he adjusted this year and definitely showed. 

[Y2CJ41]

Just one more quick question, why are juniors and seniors automatically considered "better" wrestlers than freshmen or sophomores?  Here we go again with the lightweight vs. heavyweight debate, but I can't resist saying something every time it comes up.  Just to keep this post somewhat on topic though, I'll go out on a limb and say that, as a freshman, Jason Tsirtsis was a more skilled wrestler than any heavyweight that has ever wrestled in Indiana at any point in his high school career.

 

Edit: Powerline, you might have just become my favorite poster on this board.

Are you seriously asking this question? I honestly thought you were at least semi-intelligent.

 

Let's start off with this

40 out of 224 state qualifiers this year were freshman or sophomores, that is just under 18%. There were 49 out of 224 or 22% in 2012. My guess is of all the wrestlers in the state there are over 50% that are freshmen or sophomores(always have bigger freshman than senior classes usually).  If freshmen and sophomores were the better wrestlers they would account for an equal amount of placings and qualifiers at state.

 

So you ask why a junior or senior is a better wrestler....hmm experience, physical maturity and mental maturity. With all things equal between two competitors the upperclassman is more likely to win.

 

Would you rather have a lineup of freshmen and sophomores or juniors and seniors? Which team would be better?

[fwrestler]

Are you seriously asking this question? I honestly thought you were at least semi-intelligent.

 

Let's start off with this

40 out of 224 state qualifiers this year were freshman or sophomores, that is just under 18%. There were 49 out of 224 or 22% in 2012. My guess is of all the wrestlers in the state there are over 50% that are freshmen or sophomores(always have bigger freshman than senior classes usually).  If freshmen and sophomores were the better wrestlers they would account for an equal amount of placings and qualifiers at state.

 

So you ask why a junior or senior is a better wrestler....hmm experience, physical maturity and mental maturity. With all things equal between two competitors the upperclassman is more likely to win.

 

Would you rather have a lineup of freshmen and sophomores or juniors and seniors? Which team would be better?

 

Once again, I'm extremely impressed with the stats that you obviously have saved in an Excel document on your desktop.  However, if you were at least semi-intelligent, you would realize that you completely missed the point of my post.  Of course, on AVERAGE (there's a statistical term for you), upperclassmen generally have the upper hand on underclassmen from weight to weight, due to "experience, physical maturity and mental maturity," as you said.

 

However, if you actually look up from the statbook and watch wrestling, it is obvious that at the state level, the large majority of the underclassmen at the lighter weights are more skilled than the large majority of the upperclassmen at the heavier weights.  This is simply due to the fact that a greater PERCENTAGE (there's another one) of lightweights spend much more time developing their wrestling skills than do heavyweights.  I'm sure you could do a statistical analysis of all the posts on this site begging for wrestlers to fill upperweight spots on teams competing in offseason tournaments to prove that point.  My question was why you automatically consider the lighter weights to be weaker than the heavier weights simply because they consist of a greater number of underclassmen, all of whom are "factually" inferior to upperclassman heavyweights (according to you) only because underclassmen don't "account for an equal amount of placings and qualifiers at state" across all weights.  I know you have a much more firm grasp on numbers than common sense, but sometimes it'd serve you well to use the latter.

[Y2CJ41]

Now to address some more of both of your opinions.

 

Your statements on "skills" of wrestlers at different weights is very close minded and shows a lack of knowledge of the sport past your personal experience. As I have stated to fwrestler and even others there are different skill sets needed for success at different weights. For some reason it is a consensus amongst some that in order to be a good wrestler you need to know 1,343,234 moves because that will show how skilled you are. You two are being naive in thinking that what it takes to be a good wrestler is the same across the board. This would be the equivalent to saying it takes the same skills to be a good quarterback vs. lineman in football or thrower vs. hurdler in track. One other example is comparing two skills across the weight classes and their need. For example speed is a higher need at a lower weight class than an upper weight class, while strength is not needed as much in the lower weight while it is a higher need at the upper weights. Obviously having both at either end of the spectrum is always super awesome.

 

Powerline,

Your comments about Sliga sound as if you have a personal vendetta against him. Simply stating there are wrestlers that you believe had better careers would be sufficient, yet you resort to calling the kids he beat for his titles tub-a-lards.  You even point to one subpar tournament result as an example. You forget to realize Sliga probably put it on the line more than ANYONE in the state for as long as I can remember. Four Fargos, three Super 32s, two FILA Cadets, two FILA Juniors, Junior duals, FloNationals, Cadet worlds and probably a few I am forgetting.  To point to ONE event that was subpar shows how much you are trying to discredit his accomplishments. You are obviously very well versed in many of the top wrestlers in the history of the state and it amazes me you want to discredit a kid's accomplishments the way you have. Sliga put it on the line and was successful like very few before him and will be after him. Give him some credit and leave it there, no need to belittle his accomplishments the way you did.

[Y2CJ41]

Once again, I'm extremely impressed with the stats that you obviously have saved in an Excel document on your desktop.  However, if you were at least semi-intelligent, you would realize that you completely missed the point of my post.  Of course, on AVERAGE (there's a statistical term for you), upperclassmen generally have the upper hand on underclassmen from weight to weight, due to "experience, physical maturity and mental maturity," as you said.

Facts seem to escape your grasp, but alas we will move on.

 

However, if you actually look up from the statbook and watch wrestling, it is obvious that at the state level, the large majority of the underclassmen at the lighter weights are more skilled than the large majority of the upperclassmen at the heavier weights. 

More skilled how? The skills required to be good at the lighter weights are different than needed at the upper weights. Do you realize that? Wrestling isn't the same across the weight classes. Are heavyweights "unskilled" because they aren't well versed cradlers?

 

This is simply due to the fact that a greater PERCENTAGE (there's another one) of lightweights spend much more time developing their wrestling skills than do heavyweights. 

Again you fail to realize that the skills needed across the weight classes is different.

 

I'm sure you could do a statistical analysis of all the posts on this site begging for wrestlers to fill upperweight spots on teams competing in offseason tournaments to prove that point. 

Yippee that means you can find more kids that want to go to the Grand River World Championships. Ever realize that many of the top bigger guys have graduated so it is harder to find ones that are eager to participate? There is a greater pool of 120lbers to fill for the GRWC than there is for a 195lber.

 

My question was why you automatically consider the lighter weights to be weaker than the heavier weights simply because they consist of a greater number of underclassmen, all of whom are "factually" inferior to upperclassman heavyweights (according to you) only because underclassmen don't "account for an equal amount of placings and qualifiers at state" across all weights.  I know you have a much more firm grasp on numbers than common sense, but sometimes it'd serve you well to use the latter.

FACTUALLY? Again you paint a broad brush across the weight classes on the skills needed to be top level. Do you believe in teaching a heavyweight super ducks and low singles or high singles and slide-bys? The skill sets needed to be good differ as you move from weight class to weight class. When I jumped between 141 and 149 in college there was a difference in the types of wrestlers I wrestled. At 141 my opponents were quicker and at 149 they were stronger.  Of course both weight classes were worlds different than when I wrestled 112lbs as a senior in high school. When you finally decide to grasp the concept that there are different skillsets needed you will realize that you cannot say a kid is "more skilled" just based of their weight class.

[Powerline]

Now to address some more of both of your opinions.

 

Powerline,

Your comments about Sliga sound as if you have a personal vendetta against him. Simply stating there are wrestlers that you believe had better careers would be sufficient, yet you resort to calling the kids he beat for his titles tub-a-lards.  You even point to one subpar tournament result as an example. You forget to realize Sliga probably put it on the line more than ANYONE in the state for as long as I can remember. Four Fargos, three Super 32s, two FILA Cadets, two FILA Juniors, Junior duals, FloNationals, Cadet worlds and probably a few I am forgetting.  To point to ONE event that was subpar shows how much you are trying to discredit his accomplishments. You are obviously very well versed in many of the top wrestlers in the history of the state and it amazes me you want to discredit a kid's accomplishments the way you have. Sliga put it on the line and was successful like very few before him and will be after him. Give him some credit and leave it there, no need to belittle his accomplishments the way you did.

 

Sarcasm my friend, Sarcasm, the Tub-A-Lard was sarcasm toward big guys...of which we all appreciate.  ;D

 

I still think he is a great wrestler, and due to his combination of size and technique has huge upside. I just think like many, he is, amazingly, still work in progress. Let's see what he does at Northwestern before ranking him.  I wish him nothing but the best and he becomes a 4x'r.

 

But if someone throws out the title of Best-all-time, back it up with honest & scholastic comparison for what those before have done.  As well, if there is going to be frank discussion about the best of all time, dissecting what are all great wrestlers and careers, the dissecting & evaluation of the little things in each of them and their records, might sound like harping and disrespect, but it is not, it's

throwing hypothetical comparisons, of which it might bruise egos of what are stellar careers, with no belittlement assumed. Because truth be told, he is one of my favorite wrestlers to follow. My sarcastic humor should have been directed on the poster who throws in best ever, and then leaves out guys like Andrew Howe and Angel, who are already NCAA champions. Regardless of opinion, that's pretty silly to leave off a guy like Howe who goes 2,1,3 at his first three NCAA's...sheesh, wake up.

 

To that point, since we are throwing hypothetical comparisons. If someone is going to use Cadet success as a basis (and it is well respected and earned) the question has to be asked, what is the criteria?  And if a guy wins Cadet National titles, but finishes 3rd in his own state folkstyle, can you really claim the Cadet is > Folkstyle State Titles?

 

[Y2CJ41]

I don't disagree with throwing in names like Angel and Howe by any means amongst others like Humphrey and Alex Tsirtsis also. Your remarks looked very much like you were discrediting Sliga's accomplishments. I'm not sure how I would even rank the best wrestlers in the last 15 years, but even so Sliga would be in the hunt based off his credentials so far. Obviously with him he had more opportunities to do well nationally which can make it hard to judge also. Guys like Angel and Howe wrestled in a lot of big tournaments, but there were no FloNationals, Super 32, etc as there is now for them. 

 

I am glad to hear it was more tongue in cheek than a snide remark toward Sliga.

[Powerline]

I don't disagree with throwing in names like Angel and Howe by any means amongst others like Humphrey and Alex Tsirtsis also. Your remarks looked very much like you were discrediting Sliga's accomplishments. I'm not sure how I would even rank the best wrestlers in the last 15 years, but even so Sliga would be in the hunt based off his credentials so far. Obviously with him he had more opportunities to do well nationally which can make it hard to judge also. Guys like Angel and Howe wrestled in a lot of big tournaments, but there were no FloNationals, Super 32, etc as there is now for them. 

 

I am glad to hear it was more tongue in cheek than a snide remark toward Sliga.

 

Even the comparison criteria between guys like Ellis and Angel are interesting. From a college and dynamic standpoint, it is not hard to argue Escobedo's success there after high school.  But, criteria wise, Ellis being the first four timer in like 38 years has to be weighed heavily.  Now we are in a heyday with four x 4x'rs in the last 8 years.

 

[GenHeavyHandz]

 

Edit: Powerline, you might have just become my favorite poster on this board.

MY Favorite Poster:

1. HASKY(just love the  name) I never solved the Ellis Puzzle.

2. Powerline (High Wrestling IQ) (I can still feel the gut wrench Marbach hit on me at Huntington North in 1990 I said, "he wrestled 145 the year before (I 119)who cuts to 136.5 in the off season,I hear Barry Humble spurs," I can still hear Mike Belmont, scoot forward,scoot forward"...it didn't work.

3.fwrestler (High Moral Compass) made me feel like an Immature,duh, dumb dumb. Must be from Dwenger( my over inflated sophomoric ego tells me I'm funny sometimes).

4.BIGMAK (Humor) I like people who look like their names.

5.KarlHungus(The Voice of Reason) A Yoda like presence I imagine him sitting yoga style administering apt discipline when needed

 

Oh Yeah..Mitch Good. Real Good.

[Regionrat1]

mY boy from cedar tuckey has to be da best

 

2-1-1-1 High school Fargo Champ

 

2-1-3 Ncaa one more tittle to com dis a year

 

Senior Freestyle Champ

 

Olympic alternate - to da# 1 wrestler in da world

 

a purdy good resume

[TIME]

B, don't get excited, never mentioned anything about the d word, I don't really promote that type of activity. Thought maybe Ellis tossed you around in the day and maybe your head was still little foggy. The " NO " word was refering to " No, dont want to wrestle Ellis anymore, that hip toss has me little to foggy. Com' on man..

[Big Bob 77]

You guys are off topic, and it's very simple Indiana's greatest High School Wrestler is Lance Ellis with a pinning percentage of 85% and undefeated in 4 years speaks for itself. These guys your mentioning all did bigger things on a national level and others in college, but in high school which was the question nobody can match his stats...

[GenHeavyHandz]

You guys are off topic, and it's very simple Indiana's greatest High School Wrestler is Lance Ellis with a pinning percentage of 85% and undefeated in 4 years speaks for itself. These guys your mentioning all did bigger things on a national level and others in college, but in high school which was the question nobody can match his stats...

I second that. Not to mention the fear he instilled in his opponents. Is it his fault other's were not taught the universal counter to the lateral drop. I'll add today I can go on youtube and scout the kid from around the corner. In those days you were dealing with videotape and it took a guru to have tape on superior opponents.  So a kid from Montana was a mystery to Ellis. Is there any old tape on this guy. He had a flare and a swagger to boot; made Market Square electric. Numbers don't lie: in high school in ISHAA competition there was none greater. Only 26 guys got away in 4 years. People said he wrestled no greats. Mark Rosenbalm won state. Wrestled at Purdue.  The kid from Rushville,Scott Wilson State Champ . He beat Scott Shultz 2x runner one of the best to never win. I can go on and on........

[Jimtown 138]

MY Favorite Poster:5.KarlHungus(The Voice of Reason) A Yoda like presence I imagine him sitting yoga style administering apt discipline when needed

 

LMAO...

[KarlHungus]

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