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Tough rat-tails, and why we don't we change random draws at sectionals?


ENoblewrestling

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Quick question, why do we do random draws at sectionals?  To me it makes more sense to make our brackets the following way-

1. Seed top six as we currently do.

2. Seed 7 and 8 by straight record

3. Draw the extras against the worst seeds. In a ten team sectional unseeded kids would be placed against the placed 7 and 8's.

 

This seems more fair than randomly drawing kids in, who may get the top seeds and have no real chance, or in a stacked weight ay actually give the seeded kids some tough matches.

 

Wouldn't it be more fair if these kids wrestled the other bottom of the bracket guys and had a fighting chance? If they are pretty tough wouldn't it be more fair to the seeded guys if they saw them after the rat-tails?  Is there any reason why random draw is better?

 

With that being said are their any tough looking rat-tail draws at sectionals?  Carroll 106 looks to have one that stands out.

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This was already changed at our sectional a couple of years ago - ever since they stopped counting team scores until the quarter finals.  We have 11 teams so the top 5 seeds automatically get first round byes.  If there is a forfeit, it automatically goes to the 6th seed.  The unseeded kids are randomly drawn into the brackets (making sure lines x and y have a physical body if possible).  This sets it up so no kid is "one-and-done" from a top seed.  Because it doesn't affect the team score at all, there have been no complaints. 

 

This was approved by the IHSAA.  I assumed it was done at all sectionals.

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This was already changed at our sectional a couple of years ago - ever since they stopped counting team scores until the quarter finals.  We have 11 teams so the top 5 seeds automatically get first round byes.  If there is a forfeit, it automatically goes to the 6th seed.  The unseeded kids are randomly drawn into the brackets (making sure lines x and y have a physical body if possible).  This sets it up so no kid is "one-and-done" from a top seed.  Because it doesn't affect the team score at all, there have been no complaints.  

 

This was approved by the IHSAA.  I assumed it was done at all sectionals.

 

I'm guessing they should have made this more known then, because that is not the way it is worded in the official sectional seeding information.  I agree that everyone should at least get a chance at coming back through the consolations.  Since many weight classes have a big drop off in talent level after the top few spots this would allow the decent wrestlers that may be good enough to fight back to at least the 5/6 spot get a rat-tail draw in.  Sometimes one bad match or an opponents one big win can shake up the seeding enough to cause a solid wrestler to be drawn in.  In that case you would hate for that unlucky draw to end up costing him a chance to prove his talents in the wrestle-back plus hurt his teams chances of placing.  Arranging it so you draw into the lower brackets wrestlers seems logical in that situation.  They only argument I can see since team score isn't a factors is someone saying they want an equal chance at a warm-up match or everyone should have an equal chance at drawing into the elimination spot. 

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This was already changed at our sectional a couple of years ago - ever since they stopped counting team scores until the quarter finals.  We have 11 teams so the top 5 seeds automatically get first round byes.  If there is a forfeit, it automatically goes to the 6th seed.  The unseeded kids are randomly drawn into the brackets (making sure lines x and y have a physical body if possible).  This sets it up so no kid is "one-and-done" from a top seed.  Because it doesn't affect the team score at all, there have been no complaints.  

 

This was approved by the IHSAA.  I assumed it was done at all sectionals.

 

This makes way too much sense!  LOL

 

At one weight class, we have rat-tails to get into the round of 8 at the 4th and 5th seed spots.  One matchup is 18-18 vs. 13-17 and the other is 22-14 vs. 27-7.  The 22-14 and 13-17 will probably be going home.  Meanwhile, the 8 seed, who is 4-24 (no head to head with the others), has a chance to wrestle back, even after he loses to the 1 seed.

 

Seems to me that if you have 1 "extra wrestler" (beyond 8 ), the rat-tail should be for the 8th spot, for 2 "extra wreslters", the 8th and 7th spot, and so on.  It may take a little extra time, but seems a lot more fair.

 

I also totally agree with decbell1.

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At one weight class, we have rat-tails to get into the round of 8 at the 4th and 5th seed spots.  

 

According to Sectional Rules they only Seed 6 wrestlers.  The other two spots are placed to even out the bracket and then the rat-rails matches are added if additional teams are in that sectional.  So the 7 and 8 spots should have been draw-ins too they just were filled in to a none rat-tail spot.  But you are still on point with the idea that it would be best to allow as many decent guys as possible a chance at least prove their ability in the wrestle-backs.

 

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I agree that this happens and it sucks, but it could be worse.  We are the only sport that seeds our sectional.  All other sports get blind drawn into the spots.  We could have the best two wrestlers in a pig-tail match.  Could their be a simple fix yes, will the IHSAA change this most likely no.  Be happy with what we have, the grass is always greener on the other side

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I agree that this happens and it sucks, but it could be worse.  We are the only sport that seeds our sectional.  All other sports get blind drawn into the spots.  We could have the best two wrestlers in a pig-tail match.  Could their be a simple fix yes, will the IHSAA change this most likely no.  Be happy with what we have, the grass is always greener on the other side

Why should we just accept something that could have an easy fix, and make our tournament better?

I know that track has automatic qualifying times, and I assume cross country does too, those both serve as ways to catch guys who get beat out early, but deserve a chance at moving on.  Anyone have any insite on swiming, golf, or tennis?

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Hello?? It is an easy fix.  Greco said they do it already and it is approved by IHSAA...get your sectional to get on board

Karl completely agree with you, but I had no clue until today that we were alowed to seed this way.  Curious how many sectionals seed this way?  Theirs is the only one I am aware of. 

 

Does anyone now any advantages that random draw gives?  Why is it there in the first place, maybe I'm missing something.

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Swimming takes the sectional champ from each sectional and anyone who meets state cutoff times.  I do not know exactly it works out for tennis and golf.

 

Tennis is the only comparable sport to wrestling in that it is direct 1 on 1 competition verses an opponents (not a course, clock, judges, etc.).  Due to that the organization for our two events  may deserve to be similar in nature, but should not lumped in with the other individual sports (seeding argument or any other). You now add in the team element back in as well and that even makes our advancement it unique compared to most direct team vs team team sports.  When the IHSAA starts understanding each sports for their uniqueness then we can start having decision from them that best benefit each sport.

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Tennis is the only comparable sport to wrestling in that it is direct 1 on 1 competition verses an opponents (not a course, clock, judges, etc.).  Due to that the organization for our two events  may deserve to be similar in nature, but should not lumped in with the other individual sports (seeding argument or any other). You now add in the team element back in as well and that even makes our advancement it unique compared to most direct team vs team team sports.  When the IHSAA starts understanding each sports for their uniqueness then we can start having decision from them that best benefit each sport.

 

The state qualification process in tennis is more unfair and more complicated than the wrestling process.  In just a quick summary for tennis,  sectionals start out in a team competition.  And in the match the #1 players from #1 doubles team play each other. Only the teams are seeded.  Note only the #1 singles and #1 doubles player can qualify for state and only 8 singles players and 8 doubs teams qualify.  There are two ways to qualify,  the four undefeated  individual players and doubs team at  team semi-state qualify.  Also, if your team loses at sectional and regional and you individually haven't lost,  you're thrown into an individual tournament.  The four winners from each individual tournament also qualify. 

 

Like I said "complicated", and a good example of unfairness,  the 4th rated player in the state this year was in the same sectional as the runner-up at State.    The 4th rated player lost a close match at sectional,  and his season was done at sectional.  In tennis the disparity between the talent levels at sectional is huge,  as the really good players are concentrated around tennis clubs in Indy with some good players in Fort Wayne and NW Indiana.  Just to compare it to wrestling, just imagine the 4th best wrestler out all weight classes lost at sectional.  That would be big news.

 

 

 

 

 

 

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This was already changed at our sectional a couple of years ago - ever since they stopped counting team scores until the quarter finals.  We have 11 teams so the top 5 seeds automatically get first round byes.  If there is a forfeit, it automatically goes to the 6th seed.  The unseeded kids are randomly drawn into the brackets (making sure lines x and y have a physical body if possible).  This sets it up so no kid is "one-and-done" from a top seed.  Because it doesn't affect the team score at all, there have been no complaints. 

 

This was approved by the IHSAA.  I assumed it was done at all sectionals.

 

If the IHSAA has already approved this, we should all take it to our Sectionals and ask them to at least consider it.

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If the IHSAA has already approved this, we should all take it to our Sectionals and ask them to at least consider it.

 

I do not think there has ever been any approval from the IHSAA.  A few tweaks have been made at certain Sectionals due to the coaches all agreeing that it is the fairest and most sensible way to do things.

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i thought the one and done was changed? i thought if you lost first round you still had a chance to come back and get 3rd or 4th? from what im seeing this is true. so in order to be done for good you have to lose twice.

 

You might be familiar with a sectional with 8 teams. Some sectionals have nine or more teams, and there is a round required to get the bracket down to 8.

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