Rebel89 Posted January 10, 2013 Share Posted January 10, 2013 Amateur Wrestling News released their new high school team rankings today and Perry has fallen to 23rd in the nation. Intermat has dropped them to 27th. With five all americans at Fargo, back to back Disney Duals national titles and a continued presence at the top of Indiana wrestling I assumed this team was poised to approach a top ten ranking. Both rankings have Perry behind Cincinnati Moeller, a team they defeated two years ago at Disney. I had a back and forth email discussion last year with Josh Lowe of Intermat, who does their rankings on this very topic. He is extremely knowledgeable about high school wrestling on the national level but when you boil it all down he doesn't have much for Indiana wrestling because we don't wrestle out of state due to the IHSAA restrictions. Now Perry is the home team for me so I will admit I am biased, but I feel Perry is being slighted in the national polls. I wonder what peoples' thoughts were on Perry's national ranking and as part of a broader discussion does Indiana wrestling deserve more respect on the national level in general? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MattM Posted January 10, 2013 Share Posted January 10, 2013 The Intermat rankings for IN posted earlier http://indianamat.com/messageboard/index.php/topic,24677.0.html Sure I think PM is being a little slighted by the rankings, but other teams have been proving themselves against top level regional and national competition and Perry hasn't. Same issue Mater Dei had for years. It comes down to the IHSAA figuring out it would be worth while to modify the travel rules for all spots. Sure we still can stay within our 600mile round trip restrictions, but eliminate the part that says team have to come from that same distance radius. It would allow some top IN teams to compete in some of the top competitions, and it still sticks with the point of the IHSAA rule. (Which is to ensure schools are not fixated on taking big cross country trips especially if they interfere with the school day). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Y2CJ41 Posted January 10, 2013 Share Posted January 10, 2013 Quite simply it is hard to tell when they don't wrestle any out of state powerhouses. They would be a great match-up for any of the ranked teams in the 10-20 range and would not count them out of winning. Until Indiana changes their rules somewhat the team rankings in any sport will all be hindered. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vikingwrestling55 Posted January 10, 2013 Share Posted January 10, 2013 I agree Perry is most lightly underestimated and not to Perry's fault. There are always unresolved factors in every ranking, too this reason I don't put much stock into as it doesn't mean much in the big picture. Perry is a great team and with nothing on the line in regards to rankings so I wouldn't overthink it... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KarlHungus Posted January 10, 2013 Share Posted January 10, 2013 Has Perry looked into setting up a dual with St. Paris or Moeller? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fabio Jr. Posted January 10, 2013 Share Posted January 10, 2013 We will never get the respect until we prove it in the big highschool tournaments...and that cant happen until the stupid rules are reworked 10-1 Out-of-State Contest Limitations The address of out-of-state schools participating in a contest against a member school as well as the site of such contests must be within 600 miles round trip travel from the Indiana state line and shall be sponsored or co-sponsored by a member high school. Thats what kills us...and it makes no sense how that has anything to do with athletes of the IHSAA...If another athletic association wants to allow there teams to fly from California to Ohio to wrestle why should we not be allowed to wrestle them? Ohios Rule: Schools may travel out of state to compete in contests in states or provinces in canada that are contiguous to ohio regardless of distance to travel. The states include indiana, Kentucky, Michigan, pennsylvania and West Virginia. The province includes ontario. Additionally, schools may travel out of state one time per sport per interscholastic season to compete in contests in states or provinces in canada that are not contiguous to ohio provided there is no loss of school time. ?School time? is defined as any time during any day during which the school is in session as stipulated in its Board-adopted school calendar exclusive of contingency days. Illinois is a little more blunt Schools may travel any distance provided the participating students miss no more than one school day, including travel to and from the competition Kentucky's By-Laws on the issue http://khsaa.org/handbook/bylaws/bylaw23.pdf Michigan - Circa 2011-2012 handbook couldnt find a more recent one . a. No member school shall compete in any interstate meet, contest or scrimmage which involves travel of more than 600 highway miles round-trip for any par tic ip at ing team. b. Schools are prohibited from participating in two-team competition at multi-school interstate events where any team involved in any contest of the event must travel more than 600 highway miles round-trip. 54 Regulation IIc. For competition involving schools exclusively from and occurring only within Michigan, Ohio, Indiana, Wisconsin and Ontario, MHSAA member schools may compete regardless of the travel distance for any participating team. d. The Michigan School for the Deaf may compete against other state residential schools for the deaf in events of the Central States Schools for the Deaf Association regardless of the distance for any participating school. Thiers is a little harsher...but it is also up for interpretation...dunno if Article B. is 600 miles round trip from your school to thiers or from their school to host school. perhaps a michiganite can shed some light Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PreparetoWin Posted January 10, 2013 Share Posted January 10, 2013 Has there ever been any question or response from the IHSAA on this matter? as to why they wont allow it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
indyt Posted January 10, 2013 Share Posted January 10, 2013 We are real familiar with Moeller. We have wrestled them for about 8 years now at the middle school level and beat them probably 5 times. We have wrestled them at Disney with both of our line ups being very very close to the next seasons line up and again have beaten them 4 out of 5 times I believe. Don't quote the stats because I don't have the actual brackets with me but yes we have gotten the better of them a few times and one or two times they put it on us. Last year they invited us ( for this year )to a double dual with Detroit Central Catholic. I had to decline due to IHSWCA team state. My AD would not let us travel to St Johns last year for a dual before a mich state big ten dual. It would have been awesome and we would have gotten thumped but it would have been worth it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fabio Jr. Posted January 10, 2013 Share Posted January 10, 2013 it doesnt register my edits as new posts so bump up for discussion purposes Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MattM Posted January 10, 2013 Share Posted January 10, 2013 I know that the Michigan travel rules and related athletic association rules have caused them their own issues in the past. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wrestlingfan182 Posted January 10, 2013 Share Posted January 10, 2013 Perry is not goin anywhere there triumphs have just started they have some great middle school and el. wrestlers coming up to fill spots. They will be on the top for many years. I'm sure the coaches are always looking at ways to get better matches in the off season that continues to make them better. Perry coaches also build wrestlers average wrestlers can come to Perry and become great. The high natil ranks will come when they see the trains not slowing down. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fabio Jr. Posted January 10, 2013 Share Posted January 10, 2013 I dont think anyone made that assumption Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wrestling Scholar Posted January 10, 2013 Share Posted January 10, 2013 Perry probably is a top 20 team in the country, but they will not get the respect until you go wrestle some ranked teams out of state. Look at Intermats top 50, and half of the teams are within the 600 mile distance and a handful are withnin 3 hours. They need to schedule these teams and these teams will come. Coach Jordan of St Paris Graham seeks out the best competition for his team. They're a public school in Ohio and they found a way to travel to New Jersey to wrestle Blair last weekend. I bet you money Jordan has tried to schedule with Perry as Graham is only 2 hours away. Other schools close are Cincinnati Moeller, St Eds-Ohio, St John_MI, Montini Catholic-IL, Oak Park-IL, Carl Sandburg- IL, Detroit Catholic, Massilon Perry-OH, Marmion, IL, etc. All these teams look for good competition to boost their ranking. Untill Perry steps up and beefs up its schedule, its lucky to have a 23rd ranking. You got to prove you belong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KarlHungus Posted January 10, 2013 Share Posted January 10, 2013 Perry probably is a top 20 team in the country, but they will not get the respect until you go wrestle some ranked teams out of state. Look at Intermats top 50, and half of the teams are within the 600 mile distance and a handful are withnin 3 hours. They need to schedule these teams and these teams will come. Coach Jordan of St Paris Graham seeks out the best competition for his team. They're a public school in Ohio and they found a way to travel to New Jersey to wrestle Blair last weekend. I bet you money Jordan has tried to schedule with Perry as Graham is only 2 hours away. Other schools close are Cincinnati Moeller, St Eds-Ohio, St John_MI, Montini Catholic-IL, Oak Park-IL, Carl Sandburg- IL, Detroit Catholic, Massilon Perry-OH, Marmion, IL, etc. All these teams look for good competition to boost their ranking. Untill Perry steps up and beefs up its schedule, its lucky to have a 23rd ranking. You got to prove you belong. indyt just addressed this. St. Paris did invite them but the schedule didn't work out. Although it looks cool, I am guessing that Coach Tonte and staff don't stay up late at night worrying about the lack of national respect. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MattM Posted January 10, 2013 Share Posted January 10, 2013 Perry probably is a top 20 team in the country, but they will not get the respect until you go wrestle some ranked teams out of state. Look at Intermats top 50, and half of the teams are within the 600 mile distance and a handful are withnin 3 hours. They need to schedule these teams and these teams will come. Coach Jordan of St Paris Graham seeks out the best competition for his team. They're a public school in Ohio and they found a way to travel to New Jersey to wrestle Blair last weekend. I bet you money Jordan has tried to schedule with Perry as Graham is only 2 hours away. Other schools close are Cincinnati Moeller, St Eds-Ohio, St John_MI, Montini Catholic-IL, Oak Park-IL, Carl Sandburg- IL, Detroit Catholic, Massilon Perry-OH, Marmion, IL, etc. All these teams look for good competition to boost their ranking. Untill Perry steps up and beefs up its schedule, its lucky to have a 23rd ranking. You got to prove you belong. It's not as easy as just calling them up for a dual meet or a random muli-dual. If it was I'm guessing PM (and MD before them) would have already had that one done. Most of those teams are looking for top notch multi-duals and tournaments. Fiting a meet into a already bogged down schedule is hard enough when it's vs. a far off in state team. Scheduling these out of state teams for a 1 team dual meets is a hard sell in general. Possible yes, but a hard sell. And having them attend a run of the mill (compared to their level) event in IN wouldn't be much easier when the cost is high for the travel involved. These teams want to travel out of state and expect several top 50 national teams to be represented not just one. In IN we don't have to many events where the majority of the competition if a top 100 team or even honorable mention. Again is it possible to get a team to show under the right conditions yes, but not exactly easy to accomplish. It is Much easier if our top teams could make a trip to a already established top level out of state event within our 600mile travel range. That is without being hampered by the travel distance of other teams involved. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DawgWC Posted January 10, 2013 Share Posted January 10, 2013 Folks you are right, we need to be able to tavel to some of the nations tougher venues out of state to showcase the talent of some of our top teams. This Saturday at Detroit Catholic Central in Livonia there is St Ed and another Ohio power house along with an Illionis power team, St. John's, Bedford, Hudson, Dundee, Clarkston 11-teams in total most if not all ranked in their State and a few ranked on Intermat, it would be great to get some of our top teams in this tournament. The other opportunity to traveling into Illinois or joing one of the team tournaments in Illinois that feature Wisconsin & Minnesota teams; would be great to view PM, Mater Dei, Penn at one of these tournaments --- one day. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wrestling Scholar Posted January 10, 2013 Share Posted January 10, 2013 It's not as easy as just calling them up for a dual meet or a random muli-dual. If it was I'm guessing PM (and MD before them) would have already had that one done. Most of those teams are looking for top notch multi-duals and tournaments. Fiting a meet into a already bogged down schedule is hard enough when it's vs. a far off in state team. Scheduling these out of state teams for a 1 team dual meets is a hard sell in general. Possible yes, but a hard sell. And having them attend a run of the mill (compared to their level) event in IN wouldn't be much easier when the cost is high for the travel involved. These teams want to travel out of state and expect several top 50 national teams to be represented not just one. In IN we don't have to many events where the majority of the competition if a top 100 team or even honorable mention. Again is it possible to get a team to show under the right conditions yes, but not exactly easy to accomplish. It is Much easier if our top teams could make a trip to a already established top level out of state event within our 600mile travel range. That is without being hampered by the travel distance of other teams involved. Whats so hard about calling one of these schools. Thats what the other top 50 teams are doing. Its just like calling an Indiana school. All the AD or coach at Perry Meridian needs to do is drop some of the cream puffs on their schedule and then schedule a Blue Chip match. Lets be honest, Perry's schedule is not that tough (at least for a nationally ranked team). Graham or Montini Catholic would drive to Indianapolis, if they had a chance to wrestle two mathches against ranked schools at such a short distance. Perry probably would have its highest attended match and make money off the event. Do it for the fans. Sometimes you have to go through some hoops to showcase a great team. I think it's a big misssed opportunity that Perry or even the good Mater Dei teams didn't seek out national competition. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fabio Jr. Posted January 10, 2013 Share Posted January 10, 2013 we havn't proven oursleves yet its that simple. Perry is a great indiana team but those upper level teams are at a whole different level. not to mention a lot of those would be over night trips ...why spend that money and time for maybe 1-2 tough duals.. when they can use that same travel trip and wrestle at the Ironman and Powerade Tournament? Where a majority of the Top ranked teams are wrestling. The way we fix this is modify the interstate wrestling rules, I can understand the 600 mile round trip thing...its just the fact that every team must be from within that border it kills us...because a lot of those bigger OH programs are not going to turn down teams from PA for 1 Indiana Team to come Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1oldwrestler Posted January 10, 2013 Share Posted January 10, 2013 Whats so hard about calling one of these schools. Thats what the other top 50 teams are doing. Its just like calling an Indiana school. All the AD or coach at Perry Meridian needs to do is drop some of the cream puffs on their schedule and then schedule a Blue Chip match. Lets be honest, Perry's schedule is not that tough (at least for a nationally ranked team). Graham or Montini Catholic would drive to Indianapolis, if they had a chance to wrestle two mathches against ranked schools at such a short distance. Perry probably would have its highest attended match and make money off the event. Do it for the fans. Sometimes you have to go through some hoops to showcase a great team. I think it's a big misssed opportunity that Perry or even the good Mater Dei teams didn't seek out national competition. The mountain isn't going to come to Mohammed. Those schools have enough showcase events that they probably don't want to travel to Indiana becuase they don't need to. Indiana schools are going to have to be the ones to travel and it has already been noted ad nauseum how this is very difficult Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wrestling Scholar Posted January 10, 2013 Share Posted January 10, 2013 The mountain isn't going to come to Mohammed. Those schools have enough showcase events that they probably don't want to travel to Indiana becuase they don't need to. Indiana schools are going to have to be the ones to travel and it has already been noted ad nauseum how this is very difficult A 23rd ranking just put a target on Perry. Moeller or Graham or only 2 hours away and would come as they get to wrestle a top 25 team and possibly get IN vs OH bragging rights. Graham traveled to wrestle to New Jersey for a single dual. Perry Meridian would be one of there shorter trips on the schedule. And traveling to Cincinati or St Paris Ohio (near Indiana border) is not that big a deal nor would a trip to the Chicago area that has multiple ranked teams. Just curious, have any of the good teams in NW INdiana (Penn, Mishawaka, Merrillville) ever wrestled the National powerhouses in Chicago? I'd like to see how they stack up. Geography is not much of a hurdle here? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
indyt Posted January 10, 2013 Share Posted January 10, 2013 Ok I guess I didn't say it loud enough for you scholar. We have wrestled Moeller about 5 or 6 times and Montini twice in the last several years at Disney Duals. Whats cool about Moeller and Perry is we both use what is most likely the next years line up. Montini was actually stronger than their regular team because at Disney Duals you can pick up three studs not on your team and they did and they whipped us good. That was a few years ago. We also take our middle school team over Christmas break to Cincinnati and wrestle in Elder's tournament which includes tough Kentucky teams as well as Moeller. We know the Moeller kids very well Last year Alex Dolly set up a dual with us and St Johns before a Michigan State Big Ten Dual. My AD would not let us travel for one meet. I wasn't happy but I kept my job at Perry so I can feed my wife and 4 boys Also as I said we were looking at wrestling Moeller and Detroit C Catholic but we added team state and could not fit it in. So we had to settle for sending 10 kids to Fargo and having 5 AA last two years there. If my stats are correct only Blair had more last year. We are not afraid to take a butt whipping. Nationally ranked Mater Dei teams have spanked us several times. And I would venture to say, Y2 help me on this one, we wrestle darn near the toughest schedule in Indiana. Everything goes in cycles. We are pretty good but other teams will surpass as soon and we will have to work hard to try and get it back to where we can compete at the level scholar wants to see us at. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wrestling Scholar Posted January 11, 2013 Share Posted January 11, 2013 Ok I guess I didn't say it loud enough for you scholar. We have wrestled Moeller about 5 or 6 times and Montini twice in the last several years at Disney Duals. Whats cool about Moeller and Perry is we both use what is most likely the next years line up. Montini was actually stronger than their regular team because at Disney Duals you can pick up three studs not on your team and they did and they whipped us good. That was a few years ago. We also take our middle school team over Christmas break to Cincinnati and wrestle in Elder's tournament which includes tough Kentucky teams as well as Moeller. We know the Moeller kids very well Last year Alex Dolly set up a dual with us and St Johns before a Michigan State Big Ten Dual. My AD would not let us travel for one meet. I wasn't happy but I kept my job at Perry so I can feed my wife and 4 boys Also as I said we were looking at wrestling Moeller and Detroit C Catholic but we added team state and could not fit it in. So we had to settle for sending 10 kids to Fargo and having 5 AA last two years there. If my stats are correct only Blair had more last year. We are not afraid to take a butt whipping. Nationally ranked Mater Dei teams have spanked us several times. And I would venture to say, Y2 help me on this one, we wrestle darn near the toughest schedule in Indiana. Everything goes in cycles. We are pretty good but other teams will surpass as soon and we will have to work hard to try and get it back to where we can compete at the level scholar wants to see us at. IndyT- I have seen you're Disney dual competition credentials and are impressive, but I think the guys that rank nationally don't pay that much attention to it for the following reasons. It's in the summer, and in my experience, the whole team rarely makes it to the Florida because they can't afford it or they're doing something else. Kids aren't in as good wrestling shape in the summer and you can add three studs to your team from anywhere. Also, in the middle of the summer, you still don't know for sure who will be on varsity. Second, I'm very impressed with the level you're currently at, which is head & shoulders above everybody in Indiana. I think you are a top 20 team nationally. You're so geographically close to these nationally ranked teams and would have a realistic chance to beat them, but they're not on the schedule. I looked at you're schedule and I see 3 single dual meets against non ranked teams from Indiana. Its a wasted opportunity to show off the talent you have. Drop a couple of these duals and take a short road trip. I bet St Paris or Cincy is closer to you than Evansville, and get dual set up. Give the national rankers a reason to rank you by beating somebody, instead of just talking about the great wrestlers you have. You've got a great program, I just want you to show it off. We're in Indiana and surrounded by some of the best wrestling in the Country, you're not going to get a great ranking until you wrestle somebody big out of state. And on your AD, he sounds like a short sighted basketball coach. You have a great chance to bring tremendous National publicity to your school , and he says its too far to drive. I'm glad you kept your job. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lpd096 Posted January 11, 2013 Share Posted January 11, 2013 Looking at the lineups and comparing rosters, etc., I would place Perry at/near 20th in the nation. We (Mount Carmel) see all 5 Illinois teams that are ranked in Intermat's FAB 50 and when I look at Chicago Marist's lineup vs. Perry's, that would be a good dual but I would slightly favor Marist in a nail biter. Chicago Marist is currently ranked 21st. The IHSAA is certainly hampering the efforts of teams like Perry to attend tourneys like the Cheesehead or the Dvorak. The Dvorak would not be that far of a drive (Rockford, IL) and it is one of the toughest tournaments in the country. With regards to Region HS's wrestling over in Illinois, they do go over there but they don't see any heavy hitters (Team-wise) they only hit some good individual wrestlers. (M'ville at Rich East and CP at the Stagg) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hornet Coach Posted January 11, 2013 Share Posted January 11, 2013 I would say that Perry has bigger things to worry about than a national ranking. Some recognition is great to reward your time and effort but they have other things to worry about like getting better on a daily basis and being the best team they can be. They are at a level that every other program in the state is trying to get to. If the national powers that be do not recognize that, then so be it. I would like to see them wrestle these schools as well but if it's not possible or feasible for the school, it's not going to happen. The way I see they are doing things right and representing Indiana wrestling very well at the national level and let the other things (like rankings) take care of themselves. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rebel89 Posted January 11, 2013 Author Share Posted January 11, 2013 IndyT- I saw You're Disney dual competition credentials and are impressive, but I think the guys that rank nationally, don't pay that much attention to it for the following reasons. It's in the summer, and in my experience, the whole team rarely makes it to the Florida because they can't afford it or they're doing something else. This is not true. Josh Lowe of Intermat actually said he used the results from Disney to do a line up analysis for Perry and how they would match up with other teams. He stated that the reason he still had Moeller above Perry last year was because at Disney Moeller was without their stud Joey Ward and another kid. He summarized that with those two kids in the lineup it would have been enough for Moeller to win and he was aware that Brandon James was not in the line up for Perry. When I explained to him that Ward would have been against Jared Mckinely which at the time Intermat had them ranked 6th and 7th in the nation. I explained to him that that match up was a coin toss at best and I felt outside any other information you would have to go with the head to head results to base your rankings on. That's when he responded with the argument that it was difficult to rank Perry because of the lack of out of state wrestling. I don't disagree that makes it more challenging to rank Indiana teams and others on here agree also. I just felt then after 5 all americans at Fargo (and although almost doesn't count, Jacob Cottey lost in the round to become an AA when he got pinned in the second period after teching his opponent 7-0 in the first. That win would've made Cottey a 2X AA) and another Disney Dual Title, Perry would move up significantly in the rankings. Last year at the end of the season Amateur Wrestling News had Perry 12th in the nation. I believe Intermat had them around the top 15. I felt as though a top ten ranking might be attainable for Perry. Now to have them fall out of the top 20 I began to get the feeling that not only was Perry underrated but Indiana wrestling as a whole was underrated. Maybe Indiana is good enough to have more than one team in the top 50 in the nation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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