abcd Posted December 23, 2012 Share Posted December 23, 2012 The teams that should be "whining" are teams like North Montgomery and Fremont who both beat top 3 teams this year so far. It seems those teams either don't have a huge IndianaMat following or aren't the whining type. yeah, sounds like it. considering it was the first year the IHSWCA has had to organize something like this, i think they did a very good job. it couldnt have been an easy job trying to select the best 8 teams from each class, and every year they will get better at doing it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
decbell1 Posted December 23, 2012 Share Posted December 23, 2012 winners train, losers complain...make sure your team is good enough at wrestling next year so getting invited isnt even a question, or keep whining extra loud on internet message boards hoping that whoever sends the invites get so annoyed they invite bellmont. Our team made it to the state finals last year, what did yours do????? How much better were we supposed to do? We didnt get invited, what else is there to do besides wonder how we would have done? I feel comfortable saying Bellmont would fall in line behind Danville and Yorktown, and right even or slightly above Ev Memorial Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lubedluvsock Posted December 23, 2012 Share Posted December 23, 2012 I heard Tonte fathered all of his children after receiving a vasectomy. Great job Perry at state Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
onewinshort Posted December 23, 2012 Share Posted December 23, 2012 Since I no longer live in Indiana, I am trying to get a grip on the new state dual format. Does the IHSAA recognize the champions? What I see happening next is there will be multiple weight class state titles. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
abcd Posted December 23, 2012 Share Posted December 23, 2012 Our team made it to the state finals last year, what did yours do????? How much better were we supposed to do? We didnt get invited, what else is there to do besides wonder how we would have done? I feel comfortable saying Bellmont would fall in line behind Danville and Yorktown, and right even or slightly above Ev Memorial yeah, congrats to bellmont's team on last year. tim tebow was a playoff hero last year, congrats to tim tebow on last year. and if "my team" didnt wrestle in a tournament i would also be very comfortable saying they wouldve finished wherever. if tebow had started all year the jets would be undefeated right now Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
decbell1 Posted December 23, 2012 Share Posted December 23, 2012 winners train, losers complain...make sure your team is good enough at wrestling next year so getting invited isnt even a question, or keep whining extra loud on internet message boards hoping that whoever sends the invites get so annoyed they invite bellmont. It is called a discussion board. Your post shows that you dont even understand how this tournament works. It doesn't matter how good you are in the yesr of the tournament, it is based on how good you are the year before. I don't have a problem witht the setup, but now all of the sudden people are using terms like "state title" "championship" and "state finals" and I don't think this tourney deserves those titles Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edb41 Posted December 23, 2012 Share Posted December 23, 2012 Since I no longer live in Indiana, I am trying to get a grip on the new state dual format. Does the IHSAA recognize the champions? What I see happening next is there will be multiple weight class state titles. No, the IHSAA is not involved in the duels and I would not look for classed individual tournsment any time soon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1oldwrestler Posted December 23, 2012 Share Posted December 23, 2012 It is called a discussion board. Your post shows that you dont even understand how this tournament works. It doesn't matter how good you are in the yesr of the tournament, it is based on how good you are the year before. I don't have a problem witht the setup, but now all of the sudden people are using terms like "state title" "championship" and "state finals" and I don't think this tourney deserves those titles I know i keep busting your stones but you are truly whining. Why do you care so much? You say you dont but the fact that you are on here constantly says otherwise. Why are you surprised people are referring to this as a team championship? It pi$$es you off because Bellmont was snubbed by not being invited. What happens in two tears when bellmont does get invited and they win the 2a title? What will be your opinion of that championship? Somehow i think you will believe its a good representation of the true 2a team champion in the state of indiana. But you can bet there will be some teams that believe they were screwed by not being invited. My guess is that once bellmont gets back on top youll love how this tournament is run. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
decbell1 Posted December 23, 2012 Share Posted December 23, 2012 If Bellmont wins this tournament in 2 years, I will drive home and start working on Al Smith predictions and crunch numbers. I will take an Al Smith title over winning this tourney any day. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1oldwrestler Posted December 23, 2012 Share Posted December 23, 2012 I heard Tonte fathered all of his children after receiving a vasectomy. Great job Perry at state You got some problems my friend. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
munges Posted December 24, 2012 Share Posted December 24, 2012 winners train, losers complain...make sure your team is good enough at wrestling next year so getting invited isnt even a question, or keep whining extra loud on internet message boards hoping that whoever sends the invites get so annoyed they invite bellmont. I do not see a single Bellmont coach on here complaining. Actually you never read any posts by a Bellmont coach saying yea or nay. They are and have been a class act through and through. To say Bellmont does not train and just complain is a little ignorant. If you have issues with a Bellmont fan complaininng fine (yet isn't that what a discussion board is for..if and buts?) you can call them out but not the program. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
abcd Posted December 24, 2012 Share Posted December 24, 2012 I do not see a single Bellmont coach on here complaining. Actually you never read any posts by a Bellmont coach saying yea or nay. They are and have been a class act through and through. To say Bellmont does not train and just complain is a little ignorant. If you have issues with a Bellmont fan complaininng fine (yet isn't that what a discussion board is for..if and buts?) you can call them out but not the program. didnt mention anyone directly associated with the bellmont program; i cant even name one person who is actually associated with bellmont. some particular bellmont fan (decbell) was on here whining (A LOT) though and i thought whoever he/she was should be called out because he/she disrespected every other 2A team who was invited and wrestled their tails off by claiming bellmont was better than them (not to mention disrespecting the people who organized this great event - the IHSWCA) ...i know nothing about the bellmont program and i bet they are training hard considering they are wrestlers from a historically dominant program, but a fan was on here complaining they didnt get invited which makes the entire program look bad. anyone who knows anything about wrestling could easily come to the conclusion he isnt directly associated with the program because he is a whiner - whiners get chased off by good programs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
decbell1 Posted December 24, 2012 Share Posted December 24, 2012 My wife tells me I whine a lot too, so I am used to it. Bottom Line: I think Bellmont is better than some of the at-large teams that got in 2A. I am very, very happy for a team like Muncie South, who we have seen for years have solid teams that have gone unnoticed. It is great to see some of the programs like Evansville Memorial and Jimtown to get a shot at the state level. The problem with the tournament is the way the IHSAA treated it. One of the things we also need to keep in mind is that the goal of the tourney was not to choose the top 8 teams in the state. There was supposed to be regional representation in each class. Bellmont is not as good as Yorktown, and they would probably have a nice competitive match with Muncie South. The only real tournaments that count will take place in Jay County!!! If you think I am going to sit silently and not try to talk up my team at any chance I get, then you haven't been on this board, or any of its predecessors for the past 12-13 years. I have no affiliation with Bellmont High School other than the name on my HS diploma Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Y2CJ41 Posted December 24, 2012 Share Posted December 24, 2012 My wife tells me I whine a lot too, so I am used to it. Bottom Line: I think Bellmont is better than some of the at-large teams that got in 2A. I am very, very happy for a team like Muncie South, who we have seen for years have solid teams that have gone unnoticed. It is great to see some of the programs like Evansville Memorial and Jimtown to get a shot at the state level. The problem with the tournament is the way the IHSAA treated it. One of the things we also need to keep in mind is that the goal of the tourney was not to choose the top 8 teams in the state. There was supposed to be regional representation in each class. Bellmont is not as good as Yorktown, and they would probably have a nice competitive match with Muncie South. The only real tournaments that count will take place in Jay County!!! If you think I am going to sit silently and not try to talk up my team at any chance I get, then you haven't been on this board, or any of its predecessors for the past 12-13 years. I have no affiliation with Bellmont High School other than the name on my HS diploma 1. Where were the complaints last February? 2. You don't see Mishawaka fans complaining and they have had a lot more recent history than Bellmont 3. You don't see teams like North Montgomery and Fremont complaining and they beat teams that placed in the top 3 of their divisions. 4. You obviously don't know how the selection process went if you are saying it was based regionally. They picked the top team from each semi-state then four of the next highest teams. 5. Bellmont got smoked by the 1A champs and were one match from losing to the 1A 7th place team....that doesn't look like they are a top 2A team. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coach McCormick Posted December 24, 2012 Share Posted December 24, 2012 Under the current format, there will probably be some deserving team(s) left out of this event due to the IHSAA's decision not to grant us an extra weigh-in. It would be great to be able to select the appropriat teams 2 weeks before the actual event, but that just wasn't in the cards for our first run with this event. There will no doubt always be people on both sides of the fence with regard to this event, just as there are critics of the BCS football process... or how teams are selected for the NCAA basketball tournament. I want to thank those coaches who were possibly on the bubble for making this event who have remained professional (and some even supportive) regarding our first attempt at this event. I do agree with most everything that Y2 put in his analysis of the event at the top of this thread. I, too, see areas where we can improve for next year's event, but I want to thank all of those people (mostly volunteers) who put many, many ours into planning and running the first event. Many of these people were coaches who have their own team to worry about back home, yet they took extra time out of their day (year) to work on this project for many other teams and fans to take part in, and hopefully enjoy. I would like to point out that Assistant Commissioner Faulkens was in attendance for rounds 1 and 2 Saturday. In my brief conversation with him, he was very impressed and thanked the IHSWCA for hosting the event. We will certainly evaluate all areas of the 2012 event, and make adjustments (where possible) in preparation for next season's event. Please e-mail me with any recommendations you might have for improving this event. Again, please remember that we have to operate under the rules of the IHSAA, so any adjustments or new implementations must meet these guidelines. Thoughts/areas to consider: 1. Selection process for next season's event 2. Facility - size, location, cost and facility staff are important - Coach O'Neill and his staff were incredible to work with this year (you don't always get that at a big arena) 3. Format - can/should the tournament invite more teams or stay like it is - facility and scheduling play a big part in this decision Thank you, Coach McCormick IHSWCA President tmccormick@yorktown.k12.in.us Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AC Computer Posted December 24, 2012 Share Posted December 24, 2012 What defines a tournament, as far as IHSAA scheduling is concerned? Does it have to take place at only one location? Does it have to occur on one date (or consecutive days like Al Smith and some of the bigger tournaments)? If not, could a team tournament be structured as follows: Tuesday night: teams in each class meet at one of 16 regional locations. I counted 104 class A teams on the details page, so that would put 6-8 teams per site. These teams could be seeded with the top 2 advancing. Thursday night: the 32 teams that advanced meet at 4 sites, with 2 teams advancing. Again, separate sites for each class. Saturday: The 8 remaining teams meet at one state duals as site and run like this year's tournament. The advantage would be that everyone gets the chance to qualify and 2 good teams from the same area still have a chance to advance. It also prevents teams that are better than anticipated the chance to prove themselves. The disadvantage would be that this would take a while to organize and implement. You'd have to find sites for every class and round plus officials, workers, etc. Scheduling would be a major nightmare since there isn't a free week and there are a lot of major tournaments over the Christmas break. Best scenario would be if IHSAA would allow a moratorium week before individual sectionals to run this tournament. Any chance the coaches association could convince them to do that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M109R Posted December 24, 2012 Share Posted December 24, 2012 If Bellmont wins this tournament in 2 years, I will drive home and start working on Al Smith predictions and crunch numbers. I will take an Al Smith title over winning this tourney any day. I disagree , as an ex Penn wrestler and parent of an ex Penn wrestler . Beating Perry Meridian and winning the Ihswca team state title , would of been bigger than winning an Al Smith team title . Penn has already won an Al Smith Title . The Al Smith is a great tourney to win , but it is not a team dual tourney. Which is the only way to prove the best Team . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
decbell1 Posted December 25, 2012 Share Posted December 25, 2012 1. Where were the complaints last February? 2. You don't see Mishawaka fans complaining and they have had a lot more recent history than Bellmont 3. You don't see teams like North Montgomery and Fremont complaining and they beat teams that placed in the top 3 of their divisions. 4. You obviously don't know how the selection process went if you are saying it was based regionally. They picked the top team from each semi-state then four of the next highest teams. 5. Bellmont got smoked by the 1A champs and were one match from losing to the 1A 7th place team....that doesn't look like they are a top 2A team. 1. My complaints were made to maligned after every round in February as I saw how points were being tallied. 2. I dont think Mishawaka is one of top 8 3A teams in state 3. I dont have anything better to do than discuss the situation. North Mont has a real solid team this year 4. When I meant regionally, I meant North, South, East, West (semi-stately did not sound like a quality adverb at the time) 5. Were you at the AC match? Bergman was up a point with literally one second left and lost in OT and Baker was up by m.d. In the third when he got pinned. Those are not excuses, those are just facts. AC wrestled a lot better on that night. They were not a match away from the 1A 7th place team if you want to speak in absolute truths. The match had already been won before the last match. The very computer rankings that the system was based off of show that Bellmnt is a top 2A team. I am not saying Bellmont would have won or that they deserve to just be handed an invite. People keep saying that it was an "exceptional circumstance" to have so many seniors last year and its just something the computer couldnt react to. I find it unfair even if there is nothing we can do about it. If Bellmont is lucky enough to qualify next year, I hope we accept and I hope we get to wrestle the best teams possible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
samaj Posted December 25, 2012 Share Posted December 25, 2012 heres a simple question for all the naysayers about this event and how the qualifying was done. In the IHSAA system, did the best 8 teams get bids every year? The answer is NO. Not even close. If the top three ranked teams were in the same sectional, only one had a shot. Every years there was one regional in particular that many of us would look at and say..."man, wish we had that path to team state". The fact is no system is perfect. No system will ever be perfect. I personally think the IHSWCA system is better in one way in that it at least allowed more than one team from the same semi-state or regional based on the wildcard entries. One could say that the Class system, along with the WIldcard entries got a higher percentage of deserving teams to a team state event than the IHSAA system ever did. Bottom line is that we would all rather qualify in the same year, and do it on the mat, but we are not able to make that work with the current situation. The IHSWCA did a fabulous job of getting 24 great teams there and ran a great event. Were there 36 teams capable of being there?? HECK YES...but not everyone could go. My team was fortunate enough to qualify and we had a great time. We may never qualify again, but we did this time. This system will allow more teams to qualify and thats good for the sport. Its what the coaches all wanted. NO its NOT perfect....but its pretty good. As for those who say its not a state championship....tell Perry, Yorktown, and Adams Central that. I have been to MANY dual meet events in my career. I can tell you I have never seen it mean as much to the teams who were there that I saw last weekend. The atmosphere was electric in the entire venue. Our semifinal match vs Culver was an unbelievable atmosphere and the Busco semifinal next to us was crazy also. Alot of wrestling fans had alot of fun last weekend and our sport is better off this week because of this event. It brought wrestling together a little more. We now know that we have something to build on. Our runner up trophy may not say IHSAA but its says IHSWCA and its the best we got at this time. I would rather have this event than not have this event. Our program is very proud to say we were part of this event and to our kids and the 23 other teams there Saturday, this WAS our team state championship for this season. A big huge thanks to the IHSWCA for making this happen. I also want to congratulate Yorktown on a 2A state title and say that the staffs and kids at Southmont and Culver are class acts. They have tough as nails kids and it was awesome getting to compete against schools from out of our area in a tough environment. I hope we are fortunate to qualify every year. Then again...a little turnover is good and Im sure the 8 teams that get in each year will qualify based on the current system and will be very competitive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maligned Posted December 25, 2012 Share Posted December 25, 2012 To comment on a couple points mentioned by decbell and samaj regarding the selection process: Things the point system is: 1. It is a point system BASED on researched data from year-to-year computer ratings. Teams with the best "year-forward" performance for ONLY those 4 weeks will be selected. (This was by design. Everyone wanted a point system, rather than a computer rating.) 2. It is computed based on actual matches wrestled--in the same way that individual tournaments are computed--but with points given based on how they impact your duals strength. (State champ = 50, Sectional 5th place = 6 points, etc.) 3. It is in place to allow teams to COMPETE for their position during the state tournament series. Things the point system is NOT: 1. It is not a computer rating. It considers nothing from full-season data--only the final advancement place in the individual tournament for each wrestler. 2. It is not a "formula" any more than individual tournaments are formulas. (If you consider this a formula: 1st place = 16, 2nd place = 12, 3rd place = 9...then yes, it is a formula. If you consider that a point system, then the duals tournament qualification is also a point system: State champ = 50, Sectional 5th place = 6, etc.) 3. It is not a perfect predictor of the following year's best teams. --It is limited only to performance for the individual tournament and thus allows for "upsets." If you perform well during the tournament, you "predict" yourself to be good next year. (Example: a full-season computer rating projection for this year would have chosen North Montgomery over Southmont, but Southmont's individuals wrestled above their expected level in the tournament and "upset" North Montgomery.) 4. It is not a predictor of significant roster changes. --Because we can't use in-season adjustments, the scoring system takes nothing into account for a team like Cathedral that lost 3 of its 5 best expected returnees. --It only projects your team to replace your seniors based on the average ability of top-level teams in your class to replace wrestlers. If you replace your lost seniors at a better or worse rate than normal good teams in your class, you get too few or too many points. I'm excited to get back to work with the selection committee to tweak things based on people's feedback and what we've learned this year. All of this type of discussion is very healthy and will lead to adjustments that will make the selection process even more fair and more transparent for next year. Keep up the dialogue! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
decbell1 Posted December 25, 2012 Share Posted December 25, 2012 I think we can all agree that it went pretty well for the first year, and just like everything else, we just need to continue to try and improve what we can for the benefit of the sport and the athletes. Merry Christmas everybody Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maligned Posted December 25, 2012 Share Posted December 25, 2012 I think we can all agree that it went pretty well for the first year, and just like everything else, we just need to continue to try and improve what we can for the benefit of the sport and the athletes. Merry Christmas everybody Well said...you're a good dude. Merry Christmas! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1oldwrestler Posted December 25, 2012 Share Posted December 25, 2012 Well said...you're a good dude. Merry Christmas! But also an unbelievable whiner. His excuses for Bellmonts loss to AC were absolutely ridiculous. Im not an AC fan in the least but if I were id take decbells comments as a real slight to my teams accomplishment of defeating a bitter rival. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AC Computer Posted December 25, 2012 Share Posted December 25, 2012 But also an unbelievable whiner. His excuses for Bellmonts loss to AC were absolutely ridiculous. Im not an AC fan in the least but if I were id take decbells comments as a real slight to my teams accomplishment of defeating a bitter rival. I am an AC fan. I've worked at their tournaments and matches for over 35 years and Dane's right. If those two matches would have ended the way he said Bellmont would have won 33-32 (although Luginbill's take down eliminated the major decision even if he wouldn't have gotten the pin). And if LJ Moser and Shea Pyle would have been eligible to wrestle South Adams may have beaten Bellmont. That's the fun/frustrating thing about close matches. You can always find a way they could have gone differently, IF. It's also a motivation tool that I'm sure Bellmont will use to prepare for the sectional. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
decbell1 Posted December 25, 2012 Share Posted December 25, 2012 I am an AC fan. I've worked at their tournaments and matches for over 35 years and Dane's right. If those two matches would have ended the way he said Bellmont would have won 33-32 (although Luginbill's take down eliminated the major decision even if he wouldn't have gotten the pin). And if LJ Moser and Shea Pyle would have been eligible to wrestle South Adams may have beaten Bellmont. That's the fun/frustrating thing about close matches. You can always find a way they could have gone differently, IF. It's also a motivation tool that I'm sure Bellmont will use to prepare for the sectional. At this point, if we could find a way to get everybody's lineup full, I have no idea who would win a round robin. Sectional will be great. AC will obviously and deservingly be favorites. Thanks for not agreeing on the incredible whiner part Phil. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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