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Wrestlebacks at Regional & Semistate: Clarification from IHSAA's Mr. Faulkens


Coach Wadkins

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Which alllllll benefits bigger, deeper teams!

 

If that is the scoring set up (where wrestle-backs to 5th can potentially score more than the ones in championship rounds) it will have some impact on the few of the teams vying for a team title who can pull more kids through to the 3rd's/4th's due the lack of sectional/regional depth.

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Coaches,

 

I will "man up" and tell you that I was on the committee last spring, with several others from around the state, that worked with Mr. Faulkens to review the state of wrestling in Indiana. The committee was made up of a bunch of young, very involved guys and a few old farts like myself. The dialogue was very open and Mr. Faulkens did something few others in his position have done recently...he listened to the coaches in the room...before he commented. The change that is being discussed on here right now, the matches to determine a TRUE, more deserving alternate from both the Regional & Semistate, was brought up by me during the discussion.

 

When we all received the OK to discuss the changes, in late summer by Faulkens, there was nothing mentioning any of this in the e-mail. The Winter Bulletin and Tournament Handbook also have no mention that I have yet found.

 

However, this is an improvement on the way we currently determine alternates. The IHSAA is never going to make the kind of changes to our tournament, in an Off-Year for IHSWCA proposals, that we were all excited about on here yesterday. I mentioned something in the meetings that had been a concern of mine for years...and I am actually stunned that it has been addressed and solved without much discussion. If this is such a bad idea, throw some of the blame my way...because it was first mentioned in the meeting by me. I believe it addressed and fixed another flaw in our tournament.

 

Would I rather have the wrestle backs we all discussed on here yesterday...you bet...but our meeting was not the time or place or committee that was going to get that kind of change made.

 

Thank You,

 

Coach Jim Wadkins 

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Coaches,

 

I will "man up" and tell you that I was on the committee last spring, with several others from around the state, that worked with Mr. Faulkens to review the state of wrestling in Indiana. The committee was made up of a bunch of young, very involved guys and a few old farts like myself. The dialogue was very open and Mr. Faulkens did something few others in his position have done recently...he listened to the coaches in the room...before he commented. The change that is being discussed on here right now, the matches to determine a TRUE, more deserving alternate from both the Regional & Semistate, was brought up by me during the discussion.

 

When we all received the OK to discuss the changes, in late summer by Faulkens, there was nothing mentioning any of this in the e-mail. The Winter Bulletin and Tournament Handbook also have no mention that I have yet found.

 

However, this is an improvement on the way we currently determine alternates. The IHSAA is never going to make the kind of changes to our tournament, in an Off-Year for IHSWCA proposals, that we were all excited about on here yesterday. I mentioned something in the meetings that had been a concern of mine for years...and I am actually stunned that it has been addressed and solved without much discussion. If this is such a bad idea, throw some of the blame my way...because it was first mentioned in the meeting by me. I believe it addressed and fixed another flaw in our tournament.

 

Would I rather have the wrestle backs we all discussed on here yesterday...you bet...but our meeting was not the time or place or committee that was going to get that kind of change made.

 

Thank You,

 

Coach Jim Wadkins   

 

If the meeting was not the "time or place or committee" to get that kind if change made, but it was enough to get the change through that was made, what time or place or committee is needed?

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Here is a summary of what is going on:

 

-Someone mentioned to Robert Faulkens that our alternates for semi-state and state are basically a "luck of the draw"

-As word of this got out coaches and AD's talked to Robert Faulkens and he confirmed we will be placing 6 at regional and semi-state. Some of these people used the phrase "full wrestle-backs."

-Now everyone(myself included) is up in arms about this situation

 

With this said, Robert Faulkens is in his third year on the board and I do not believe he has a firm grasp on wrestling yet. I know that Bobby Cox is very knowledgeable about the sport however. When using the phrase "full wrestle-backs" with Mr. Faulkens it doesn't mean any different than our now pseudo wrestle-backs.  When mentioning "full wrestle-backs" to Bobby Cox it means something.

 

The question now remains if there is an AD or principal with enough pull to talk to Faulkens and Cox about this and have it changed by late January. I do not believe the Merrillville Semi-State fans will want to be stuffed like sardines for these meaningless matches.

 

 

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In a wrestling proposal year, with the IHSAA Commissioner in the room, as part of an IHSWCA Coaches Committee.

 

We were brought together, by Faulkens, to make clarifications in the:

 

1) Weight management program

 

2) Sectional seeding criteria, and

 

3) Sectional field / Balancing out sites with new programs from around the state.

 

 

EVERYTHING I HAVE READ SAYS WE ARE STILL ONLY SCORING FOUR (4) PLACES AT REGIONAL & SEMISTATE!!

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Here is a summary of what is going on:

 

-Someone mentioned to Robert Faulkens that our alternates for semi-state and state are basically a "luck of the draw"

 

Now if he can just realize/convince other in the group that some of the other factors for advancement besides the alternate are also controlled by luck of the draw too, we wouldn't be at this point.

 

For this year at least, I'm guessing they still will need to go back and address the points issue involved in the "alternate round"  if that is indeed a points issue that could affect things in the wrong way rather than helping show a more true team champion of regional/semi-state.  If they are not scoring that round then the team points are not a factor.  Then its still the old issue of showing this group that  full wrestlebacks will better help show both a true team champion and ensure the best individuals advance without a "luck of the draw" factor hindering things (plus how it still financially helps their bottom line).

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How could you expect to bring up your personal agenda and not expect to go about it in the proper way???  Why would you only go after what you thought was the issue and not go after what would be the best for the kids???  If the alternate is only used 1% in the whole state series is it really an issue that needs brought up when we actually had the ears of a man that we never have had listen to our concerns before???  I don't know how you could even try and tell anyone on this message board it wasn't the time nor the place for a discussion like this!!!  This almost sounds like telling a kid on a wrestling mat with college coaches around that will decide his future it's not the time nor place to show them your best match ever!!! 

 

Thanks for all your help!!!

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How could you expect to bring up your personal agenda and not expect to go about it in the proper way???  Why would you only go after what you thought was the issue and not go after what would be the best for the kids???  If the alternate is only used 1% in the whole state series is it really an issue that needs brought up when we actually had the ears of a man that we never have had listen to our concerns before???  I don't know how you could even try and tell anyone on this message board it wasn't the time nor the place for a discussion like this!!!  This almost sounds like telling a kid on a wrestling mat with college coaches around that will decide his future it's not the time nor place to show them your best match ever!!!   

 

Thanks for all your help!!!

 

Good Lord... I told Y2 I was staying off today. But this statement here is what drives me crazy. People try to help change the sport for the better and people just sit around and gripe. You sir are doing nothing. Thanks for all that you do?

 

Oh and by the way, the first thing our Executive Director of the IHSAA told the coaches on the committee was?Don?t even ask for wrestlebacks, it?s not happening.?  Maybe that?s why they didn?t bring it up??

 

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so we bring up wrestlebacks for the use of an alternate that benefits us for 1%!!!!  Sounds like we had the best interest in mind when we decided to bring it up since we weren't suppose to bring it up!!!  o that makes it better that we got a change ???

 

Maybe you should joing the coaches association and express how upset you are... Even better schedule a meeting with Bobby Cox and Robert Faulkens and air your concerns..

 

 

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In a wrestling proposal year, with the IHSAA Commissioner in the room, during an IHSWCA proposal year.

 

We were brought together, by Faulkens, to make clarifications in the:

 

1) Weight management program

 

2) Sectional seeding criteria, and

 

3) Sectional field / Balancing out sites with new programs from around the state.

 

 

EVERYTHING I HAVE READ SAYS WE ARE STILL ONLY SCORING FOUR (4) PLACES AT REGIONAL & SEMISTATE!!

 

What is a wrestling proposal year and an IHSWCA proposal year, and when do they occur?

 

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Oh and by the way, the first thing our Executive Director of the IHSAA told the coaches on the committee was?Don?t even ask for wrestlebacks, it?s not happening.?  Maybe that?s why they didn?t bring it up??

 

Gotta love their tunnel vision, but they have heard the conversation enough times that they don't even realize when something of substance changed about it that may alter their view.  As has been mentioned before we would have to go back to the drawing board and use a better tact so the board hears how best it benefits them (the schools and bottom dollar) if full wrestle-backs are going to be listened with a more open idea in the future.  I thought this was a great Christmas surprise too, but was wondering why it came out of nowhere and the IHSAA was so quick to decide something after years of avoidance.  Miss communications ended up causing to much excitement too soon.  

 

I would say with the new emphasis on individual scoring determining the team champion (since team states gone) I would think that affords the wrestling community at least a small window to help convince a portion of the group of the value in wrestle-backs.  By taking some ownership in these "alternate rounds" and using it as a spring board I think we have a little more wiggle room too.  Especially since their isn't much time difference but more spectators spending money when you look at alternate round vs full wrestle-backs, which  the IHSAA would also like to hear.  Its going to take slowly piecing this one together in a creative way for wrestle-offs to move forward.  Obviously, a few new friendly voices among the ADs and principals that are part of the IHSAA meetings is helpful too which is why it also may take a few years.  

 

So as others have eluded to it may be best to avoid turning this small "gift" (as much as we may want to ) into a major annoyance to the IHSAA.   I can assure you we have never made any headway with the current IHSAA board in the past through a "we demand more" approach, "lets be annoying" approach, or even the "it's right for the kids" approach.  Gotta go with the "its makes things easier, give you more recognition, or is more profitable of you guys (schools/athletic department/IHSAA)" approach if we want to make the most headway.  And even then its a slow process to get it done.

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i have aired my concerns with both over various things in the past and just like a lot on here get nothing but the run around so i do understand the importance of these meetings and feel we wasted a chance for a personal agenda that is only used 1% of the time!!! really?????  Sorry i said something about your buddy that upset you so you have to come to bat for him or was this on your agenda as well????

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i have aired my concerns with both over various things in the past and just like a lot on here get nothing but the run around so i do understand the importance of these meetings and feel we wasted a chance for a personal agenda that is only used 1% of the time!!! really?????  Sorry i said something about your buddy that upset you so you have to come to bat for him or was this on your agenda as well????

You could just talk to a lawyer friend of yours and have him send an email threatening to sue Faulkens and Cox.

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Coaches,

 

I will "man up" and tell you that I was on the committee last spring, with several others from around the state, that worked with Mr. Faulkens to review the state of wrestling in Indiana. The committee was made up of a bunch of young, very involved guys and a few old farts like myself. The dialogue was very open and Mr. Faulkens did something few others in his position have done recently...he listened to the coaches in the room...before he commented. The change that is being discussed on here right now, the matches to determine a TRUE, more deserving alternate from both the Regional & Semistate, was brought up by me during the discussion.

 

When we all received the OK to discuss the changes, in late summer by Faulkens, there was nothing mentioning any of this in the e-mail. The Winter Bulletin and Tournament Handbook also have no mention that I have yet found.

 

However, this is an improvement on the way we currently determine alternates. The IHSAA is never going to make the kind of changes to our tournament, in an Off-Year for IHSWCA proposals, that we were all excited about on here yesterday. I mentioned something in the meetings that had been a concern of mine for years...and I am actually stunned that it has been addressed and solved without much discussion. If this is such a bad idea, throw some of the blame my way...because it was first mentioned in the meeting by me. I believe it addressed and fixed another flaw in our tournament.

 

Would I rather have the wrestle backs we all discussed on here yesterday...you bet...but our meeting was not the time or place or committee that was going to get that kind of change made.

 

Thank You,

 

Coach Jim Wadkins   

 

 

I think wrestling for alternates is a very good idea and I'm glad we have guys like you with some foresight on the commitee.  Also, the alternate system is done successssfully in Ohio, and the wrestlers are very motivated to get that 5th seed as this provided the kids a trip to the state tournament.  Note Ohio has a wrestleback system like every other state.     In the true wrestlback format, the alternate system is a simple byproduct of it, and you only need one match per weight class to decide the alternate.   But the current result that morphed out of the committee or (psuedo wrestlebacks) is something totally different.  

 

The thing that bothers me is the Executive Committe that thinks the state tournament series is too long and grueling to have wrestlebacks, is now willing to take the time to allow wrestle backs for minimally consequential alternate.   But they won't allow it to find the true placing of the tournament, even though it will take about the same amount of time.   What it tells me is the there a group of Ex basketball, football golf and volleyball coaches on the Exec committee whose sport they played didn't have a bracket system where you had true placings, and if there sport didn't have it, why should wrestling.

 

What we need is guys like you to keep fighting for wrestling and using your leadership to influence and educate the Executive committee.   Keep up the good fight, we should see this as step to progress, but a sideway step.

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Gotta love their tunnel vision, but they have heard the conversation enough times that they don't even realize when something of substance changed about it that may alter their view.  As has been mentioned before we would have to go back to the drawing board and use a better tact so the board hears how best it benefits them (the schools and bottom dollar) if full wrestle-backs are going to be listened with a more open idea in the future.  I thought this was a great Christmas surprise too, but was wondering why it came out of nowhere and the IHSAA was so quick to decide something after years of avoidance.  Miss communications ended up causing to much excitement too soon.  

 

I would say with the new emphasis on individual scoring determining the team champion (since team states gone) I would think that affords the wrestling community at least a small window to help convince a portion of the group of the value in wrestle-backs.  By taking some ownership in these "alternate rounds" and using it as a spring board I think we have a little more wiggle room too.  Especially since their isn't much time difference but more spectators spending money when you look at alternate round vs full wrestle-backs, which  the IHSAA would also like to hear.  Its going to take slowly piecing this one together in a creative way for wrestle-offs to move forward.  Obviously, a few new friendly voices among the ADs and principals that are part of the IHSAA meetings is helpful too which is why it also may take a few years.  

 

So as others have eluded to it may be best to avoid turning this small "gift" (as much as we may want to ) into a major annoyance to the IHSAA.   I can assure you we have never made any headway with the current IHSAA board in the past through a "we demand more" approach, "lets be annoying" approach, or even the "it's right for the kids" approach.  Gotta go with the "its makes things easier, give you more recognition, or is more profitable of you guys (schools/athletic department/IHSAA)" approach if we want to make the most headway.  And even then its a slow process to get it done.

 

Well said.  Cool points.

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Again, some are missing my point here.  First, thanks for all who have been working towards making it a better tournament.  But, I wish this info would have come out prior to us all telling our communities that this was coming and for a group of people to know what was really going on.  Also, we can let this slide on the scoring.  I would hate for Warren to have a bunch of champs and New Pal or vice versa have a heck of a bunch of 5th placers and the team with 5th placers win the Regional due to the extra scoring for the 5th place kid.  We can not let this happen.  Its not fair to anyone involved.  Also, I understand why we dont score from first round of sectionals due to luck of draw on byes and ffts but why would we not score the first round of semi state.  Everyone is in.  NO byes.  How can you have an athletic contest and not score it while you are keeping a team score.  Please help me make sense out of all of this.  Again, I am busy as all get out right now but first things coming to mind.  Need some clarification.

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The thing that bothers me is the Executive Committe that thinks the state tournament series is too long and grueling to have wrestlebacks, is now willing to take the time to allow wrestle backs for minimally consequential alternate.  But they won't allow it to find the true placing of the tournament, even though it will take about the same amount of time

Havent we always heard about the time factor involved in wrestlebacks? This quote is on the mark about wasting ALOT of time for very LITTLE! Absurd.
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