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State Championships need full wrestlebacks


Devils27

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For being a schloar, I am with AJ your argument of 'luck' is stupid one could say that im lucky i go to a different semistate than all the studs blah blah blah the RANDOM draw for the first round made me lose....yes wrestlebacks should be there just so that you do have a chance to redeem a bad match or draw but to say a kid who got beat friday night wasnt lucky enough to get an easier match is not a good argument

 

Fabio Jr,

 

Wrestlebacks  should be there due to the disparity of the semi-state quadrants, because they have bad matches  or bad draws or any other funny thing that occurs.   I'll word it another way, lets set it up so the wrestlers earn their placing and not have it rely on chance.    In every other state except Indiana,  if you lose first round you still can get third, and if you win the first round (because you have a fortunate draw), you're not guaranteed to place.    

 

 

Another point, if you're going to rely on the the individual state tournament to decide the team state,  wouldn't you want the placements that earn the team points to me decided on the merits of the actual wrestling and not a random draw that decides who places or goes on home based solely on the first round results.

 

 

 

Fabio,  you can call my opinions stupid, but I least provided a logical debatable reason to support my opinion.    

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2.  Kids who don't deserve to place, do place  because they get the lucky draw.  This just demeans the title state placer.    Placing in state is partially due to the luck of the draw in Indiana.   

 

this is the stupid logic you said, i will maintain using the word stupid because its stupid

 

if that kid shows up and wins the match he wasnt lucky...he was a victor in a flawed system...to say he was undeserving was just as bad as me saying your logic is stupid. So if you get worked up about that think about the state placers you are talking about because i am sure you have examples and go tell them they dont deserve the medal they have.

 

 

I agree with you we should have full wrestlebacks to determine a true place winners especially if we use it to crown our "team" state champions(in fact some of your other arguments are actually fine and in the right place! it is an embaressment and other states can do it why cant we!) but dont come out with other kids arnt deserving of thier accomplishments because the system is flawed...

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this is the stupid logic you said, i will maintain using the word stupid because its stupid

 

if that kid shows up and wins the match he wasnt lucky...he was a victor in a flawed system...to say he was undeserving was just as bad as me saying your logic is stupid. So if you get worked up about that think about the state placers you are talking about because i am sure you have examples and go tell them they dont deserve the medal they have.

 

 

I agree with you we should have full wrestlebacks to determine a true place winners especially if we use it to crown our "team" state champions(in fact some of your other arguments are actually fine and in the right place! it is an embaressment and other states can do it why cant we!) but dont come out with other kids arnt deserving of thier accomplishments because the system is flawed...

 

Fabio,

 

I said partially due to luck and never said the kid isn't deserving as it very difficult to get to the second round in the Indiana State tournament with a good or bad draw.  I'm saying that in this flawed system and there are kids more deserving to place but do not as a result of the flawed no wrestle back system.

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Fabio,

 

You REALLY like yourself!  Maybe you should start referring to yourself in the third person?  Since not only are you a horrible person (self-admitted), but horrible at spelling/grammar, I will provide you with an example(s):

 

Fabio is the greatest, only his opinion counts.

Fabio is the smartest person on here. Just ask him.  

Fabio acts like an idiot on Indiana Mat because he fashions himself wrestling's version of Rush Limbaugh.

 

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I put some numbers together from last year's Ohio state tournament. Since they've got full wrestlebacks, wrestlers have an opportunity to come back to place after being defeated in the 1st round.

 

Of the 336 that lost, since Ohio has 3 divisions, 70 came back for a top 8 finish. This means 20% of the kids that were standing on that podium were able to do so because of their system.

 

Another footnote, 2 kids won 5 matches in a row to finish 3rd. Which is always impressive.

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Fabio,

 

You REALLY like yourself!  Maybe you should start referring to yourself in the third person?  Since not only are you a horrible person (self-admitted), but horrible at spelling/grammar, I will provide you with an example(s):

 

Fabio is the greatest, only his opinion counts.

Fabio is the smartest person on here. Just ask him.  

Fabio acts like an idiot on Indiana Mat because he fashions himself wrestling's version of Rush Limbaugh.

 

 

HAHA sure man...i dont know why you're mad but its fine with me, its always good to know i have fans, even if they are hiding behind a screen name

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Saying a kid who has made it through three levels of the tournament and then wins on Friday does not deserve to place is hard to swallow.

 

 

 

 

 

I think he means that the wrestler did not have to earn it as much as other states and that kids who for example draw tsirtsis on friday night who is capable to place should have a fair shot

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I guarantee they can fit more than 4 mats at Banker's life. In Michigan they fit 12 mats at the Palace for all of the rounds before the Finals.  The reason they went with a 3 day tournament around 12 years ago was strictly for revenue. By having full wrestle backs and only one match on Thursday, it ensured all of the parents would be buying tickets for Friday as well.

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I put some numbers together from last year's Ohio state tournament. Since they've got full wrestlebacks, wrestlers have an opportunity to come back to place after being defeated in the 1st round.

 

Of the 336 that lost, since Ohio has 3 divisions, 70 came back for a top 8 finish. This means 20% of the kids that were standing on that podium were able to do so because of their system.

 

Another footnote, 2 kids won 5 matches in a row to finish 3rd. Which is always impressive.

 

Nick S.  I like you're statistical approach.  So I went back to Missouri and totaled the wrestlers who lost in the first round and came back to place.

Missouri has 4 classes so out of the 448 that lost 69 came back and placed in the top 8 which was 15.4%.  I also saw 2 kids get third and 4 get 4th.

 

 

I know Ohio wrestling as my son wrestled there, and one thing for sure is the Northeastern part of the state or General Cleveland area has dominated.  So what you're seeing tougher districts (what they call semi-states) out of Cleveland who lose in the first round because they're drawing #1 seeds but come back on the back side.

 

I don't know if we have enough statistical data, but based on similar tournaments, it would be likely 15 to 20% of the state placers in Indiana would not place if they had true wrestlebacks. 

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the issue is the IHSAA wont change so instead of finding stats to prove this is a good idea and putting them here, we should be trying to figure out ways to get a hold of and send them to the IHSAA. It would be a LONG UPHILL battle because as stated in previous posts the IHSAA gives 2 craps about the sport of wrestling and we are just a spec on thier radar.

 

We all agree that this needs to happen (though our reasons behind it may not match up) its a good step to make our one class system more of a meat grinder than  it is

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the issue is the IHSAA wont change so instead of finding stats to prove this is a good idea and putting them here, we should be trying to figure out ways to get a hold of and send them to the IHSAA. It would be a LONG UPHILL battle because as stated in previous posts the IHSAA gives 2 craps about the sport of wrestling and we are just a spec on thier radar.

 

We all agree that this needs to happen (though our reasons behind it may not match up) its a good step to make our one class system more of a meat grinder than  it is

 

Not a bad point Fabio.  So who decides on what type of format the State tournament is wrestled under at the ISHAA?  My experience with other states is there's a competition commitee for each sport made of Coaches, ADs and refs who vote on the rules and formats.  I hope its not some dictator down at the ISHAA who probably favors basketball and could care less about wrestling.  Also my experience is that these competition committees are always reluctant to make changes and change rarely happens.

 

  I know its probably impossible to measure, but what is the overall consensus of the wrestling coaching community

concerning the current format of the state tournament?  Would you say a majority likes the current abbreviated format, or a majority would like to go to a traditional bracket with full wrestlebacks. 

 

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I may be in the minority but I like the system that we have concerning placers win on Friday night.  I would though like to see once we get those 8 wrestlers that we have wrestlebacks to third place rather than 5th while losing semifinalists automatically going for 3rd and 4th.

 

 

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AJ you probably are in the minority if we are being honest there is something to be said about having to win firday night to placemakes that first round a little more interesting. I personally feel that full wrestlebacks are probably best for the sport as a whole but if there was a need to comprimise that would be a fair trade to me...at l;east a step in the right direction

 

Scholar im not sure on logistics of the IHSAA but i know that bobby cox used to be in charge of wrestling...i juist know they arent for bettering the sport...when we lost team state we were told we would be given a waived weighin so that we could host our own Team tourny at our own costs...then they decided after the fact that we couldnt have said weigh in waived...which is why we cant have a wild card team in the  IHSWCA Duals. They dont seem to want to make changes to the formats and if they do they are too slow regardless of how good it is for the tournament

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While we are bring up the argument on wrestlebacks, I still would like to see wrestle backs for the ticket-round of semi-state so luck of the draw doesn't end up being a big factor with who ends up qualifying for the state finals and who goes home.  We've all seen many occasions where the regional champ or runner up gets a much tougher road to make state than some regional third or sometimes even fourth place finishes.  I'd like to take a little bit of the luck of the draw out of this occasion since at least qualifying for state is such major milestone in itself for for the wrestler and his program.  Same ticket-round excitement can be felt it will just be in the wrestle-back rounds.

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While we are burning out the argument on wrestle backs I still would like to see wrestle backs for the ticket-round of semi-state so luck of the draw doesn't end up being a big factor with who ends up qualifying for the state finals and who goes home.

 

Agreed.  If I had to choose between Friday night wrestle backs and SS wrestle backs, I would choose SS.  Being a top 8 talent and not placing (but qualifying) seems more fair than being top 16 and not qualifying at all. 

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I absolutely love how OUR state tournament is ran. The Friday night matches are sometimes just as good as the state championship matches it really comes down to who wants it more makes everyone wrestle a whole lot harder. and the people who are just satisfied of making it to state are the ones who usually lose. I could care less for wrestle backs to be honest just will make the tournament last another 4 more hours

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You realize you're asking for the IHSAA to make this a 3-day event, thus making making them have to reserve Bankers Life for another day, pay an extra day for officals, and kids have to miss an extra day of school. Bobby Cox will not allow that, especially if they are not willing to waive a single weigh in so that we as a state can run our own dual tournament free of any cost of the IHSAA.

 

I agre we have to make the best of what we got but be realistic...

 

Don't drag the officials into this.  For 1.5 days they get app. 100 bucks, a cold meat sandwich on Saturday, lots of applause from the fans, mileage (which you will waste driving to an affordable hotel OR if you go for a hotel downtown b/c the IHSAA doesn't reimburse officials for their rooms).

 

The IHSAA isn't losing a dime on officials, ever.

 

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I absolutely love how OUR state tournament is ran. The Friday night matches are sometimes just as good as the state championship matches it really comes down to who wants it more makes everyone wrestle a whole lot harder. and the people who are just satisfied of making it to state are the ones who usually lose. I could care less for wrestle backs to be honest just will make the tournament last another 4 more hours

 

I think this guy knows something about wrestling.  We should listen to him.

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I absolutely love how OUR state tournament is ran. The Friday night matches are sometimes just as good as the state championship matches it really comes down to who wants it more makes everyone wrestle a whole lot harder. and the people who are just satisfied of making it to state are the ones who usually lose. I could care less for wrestle backs to be honest just will make the tournament last another 4 more hours

 

So whats the problem for 4 more of hours of wrestling.  These are the best kids in the state and you got the building rented.  I enjoy watching this level of wrestling where you can watch only once a year.  How about the kids who work there butts off for years and put a lot of blood, sweat and a lot of time to achieve their goal.  Then they get to state and its all or nothing in the first round.  And I think we've proven that at least 20% kids are probably getting a bad draw and can beat a kid who got the title of state placer.  If you want to see good wrestling, go to the money round at another state tournament on the consolation side and you'll see kids lay it on the line.    I think the format discourages kids from wrestling.  Why put the time in and make your goal a state placer,  when you could get get a crap draw at state or semi-state, and lesser wrestlers get to move on while your done.  Let the kids earn it.  I bet you the 112 kids at the tournament that are one and done believe they could come back and at least win two matches to place.  Is their another state out there that doesn't have wrestle backs?  Is there any National college tournament that doesn't have wrestle backs.    Time to move on Indiana.       

 

 

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it happens i know Griffith won it one year when they had all their studs. fact being it should be determined by a team competition not how 3-8 kids do in an individual tourney.

 

Mater Dei won the coaches and team trophy that year (2003). They had 4 champs to griffith's 3. MD had 7 in the top 3 that yr and is the best IN HS team I have ever seen. The 2 that lost in the semis that year lost to angel and tsirtsis (macke and weinzy). That was also the only time in t-shirts HS career that an Indiana kid had him in even relative danger. Ahh, memories...

 

To better your argument though, both years LN won, they didn't win the coaches' trophy. The year they DID win the coaches' trophy (1999) they didn't even qualify for the state tourney.

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  • 4 weeks later...

You're a young kid, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt, I was trying to provide you with friendly advice, but carry on as you wish.  You clearly know all at your age.

 

Good point sportsfangms.  Fabio has some good points but is a little crude in the way he delivers them.  He will learn over time.  I love his enthusiasm and heart though....

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