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Fargo Observations


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I looked at the number of  states that produced AA's in all 4 categories of boys wrestling at this years Fargo.  The numbers and states somewhat surprised me.  Of the 512 AA opportunities (JR FS, JR GR, Cad FS and Cad GR), IL came away with an astounding 52 AA's, better than 10%.  The next closest was PA with 40 AA's.  MN had 36 while IA had 27, MO 26 and CA 23.  Incidentally Indiana finished tied for 16th with OR at 15 AA's apiece, however, if you look at the placements of IN's and OR's AA's, and you award a point system where 1st gets 8 pts, 2nd gets 7 pts, etc., OR actually places ahead of IN.  I guess the thing that surprises me, beyond IL's domination,  is two of the states we look to as being head and shoulders above IN (NJ and OH) had a fairly dismal showings as far as AA's are concerned (NJ had19 AA's and OH 17 AA's).  I'm sure there are a lot of reasons/excuses that can be made (they don't send their best, they don't send their recently graduated seniors, etc) but the numbers are the numbers and I think all of us, at least on this site, look to Fargo as a measuring stick of greatness. 

 

The other thing I find interesting is that OH and NJ appear to concentrate more on folkstyle (based on Fargo results) and I know there is a vociferous group on this site that believes we here in Indiana are doing ourselves a disservice if we don't promote FS and Greco more passionately.  The offseason shouldn't be about folkstyle, they believe, at all and organizations like HYWAY stunt our development as a great wrestling state.  I'm not against FS or GR at all but if two states we hold in high esteem (NJ and OH) don't make it a priority (and I think everyone would like to be mentioned in the same breath as NJ and OH) why must we get our pants in a bundle about FS and Greco?  So, is Illinosis one of the greatest wrestling states (ahead of NJ and OH) because they are so good at FS and Greco?  Or are NJ and OH still ahead of IL even tho they performed poorly at this years Fargo?  Or is it just an anomoly? 

 

BTW, TX had 10 AA's which isn't bad for a state that's been wrestling as a state sanctioned sport for less than 10 years.

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Here are the AA totals by state:

IL 52

PA 40

MN 36

IA 27

MO 26

CA 23

WA 20

NY 20

MD 19

NJ 19

MI 18

WI 18

OH 17

UT 16

OK 16

IN 15

OR 15

ID 13

KS 12

FL 11

TX 10

VA 10

CO 7

AZ 7

GA 6

SC 6

NM 5

MON 3

WV 3

HI 3

ND 3

AL 2

WY 2

LA 2

NB 2

NV 2

SD1

TN 1

NC 1

Del 1

CT 1

AK 1

 

 

 

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I agree that folkstyle wrestling should be the main concern of offseason wrestling..freestyle and grecco are great alternatives but i think if you want to truley be successful at a highschool and college level you shouldn't concentrate on push out rules and gut wrenches but singles and doubles. More people need to hop on board with HYWAY and NUWAY. I know from my time in Ohio that a majority of the people didnt concentrate on anything but folkstyle and the freestyle tournaments were few and far between but each week i heard of local folkstyle tournaments being ran and numbers being huge.

 

Just my 2 cents

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Here are my thoughts(because I know you would LOVE to hear them).

1. Taking a one year snapshot tells very little.  I could do that with state qualifiers this year and show how Garrett is better than Mishawaka, but history would tell you otherwise.

 

This year's AA totals are the second highest in the past six years.  Over the past six years we have averaged 11.5 AA's a year.

Year CG CF JG JF Total

2012 3 7 2 3 15

2011 2 5 2 3 12

2010 1 1 1 1 4

2009 1 3 0 3 7

2008 4 6 2 5 17

2007 5 5 0 4 14

Average 2.7 4.5 1.2 3.2 11.5

 

I hope the trend continues to go up, but we will have to wait and see.

 

2. When I was in Ohio, they have very little youth wrestling organization. Most of their tournaments were not sanctioned by any governing body. As Nick said most were folkstyle and even their freestyle and greco state tournaments are very poorly attended. 

 

3. I don't know much about New Jersey, but I have heard some people say they have been down in the past few years at the high school level.  Whether that is true or not I do not know enough to comment.

 

4. Texas wrestling is really growing at a rapid pace. They have had some studs in the past, but the past few years it has really exploded.  Just a side note that Texas is expanding to a two class system next year :)

 

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Watched the Bryce Brill vs. Neal Malloy match;

Neal wrestled him pretty well except getting caught in that leg-lace in 3rd period.  With the scoring

in freestyle being so funky now (push outs, etc.) it is tough to gauge how close the matches are sometimes.

This would be a pretty gook folkstyle match-up.

 

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Watched the Bryce Brill vs. Neal Malloy match;

Neal wrestled him pretty well except getting caught in that leg-lace in 3rd period.  With the scoring

in freestyle being so funky now (push outs, etc.) it is tough to gauge how close the matches are sometimes.

This would be a pretty gook folkstyle match-up.

 

The scoring is the same as it was 30 years ago with the addition of the push-out.  Nothing funky about it, 1 point for a takedown, 2 for a turn, 1 for a hand to hand turn, 3 for feet to back, etc.

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The scoring is the same as it was 30 years ago with the addition of the push-out.  Nothing funky about it, 1 point for a takedown, 2 for a turn, 1 for a hand to hand turn, 3 for feet to back, etc.

Not arguing the standards for turns and in control takedowns are clear as you indicate.  I am talking about the aspect of attacking, countering, and great scrambles like in a match likeMalloy / Brill, but then easy points are given out for  push outs and half-ass determination of control on edge of the mat when wrestlers are legitimately defending primary shots or counters, with hip movement, etc.. 

 

I get, that those are the rules, and perhaps it is just my complaint, but sometimes I think it fails to reward great athletic wrestling in favor of tacticle or simple scoring as a result of the location on the mat when that move was scored, while many times the more agressive wrestler in the situation is the reason two guys were near the edge of the mat in the first place... 

 

I am still torn if I like the 'period scoring system' in the last 10+ years; the sport wants initiation of scoring and agressiveness, yet there were many matches where early scoring would have ended the match or where now under this system vs. the old system it can take away primary agressor momentum. (that was not the case in this match).  Sucks to see a guy lose when he outscored the total match score by several points. Just a matter of personal taste I guess.

 

(Not that it mattered, but thought Malloy could have been awared points in the first, when he launched Brill over his head - looked like some exposure was possible there)

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Here are my thoughts(because I know you would LOVE to hear them).

1. Taking a one year snapshot tells very little.  I could do that with state qualifiers this year and show how Garrett is better than Mishawaka, but history would tell you otherwise.

This year's AA totals are the second highest in the past six years.  Over the past six years we have averaged 11.5 AA's a year.

Year CG CF JG JF Total

2012 3 7 2 3 15

2011 2 5 2 3 12

2010 1 1 1 1 4

2009 1 3 0 3 7

2008 4 6 2 5 17

2007 5 5 0 4 14

Average 2.7 4.5 1.2 3.2 11.5

I hope the trend continues to go up, but we will have to wait and see.

Don't get me wrong, I don't believe IN performed poorly at all at Fargo this year.  I guess it's just surprising that a lot of folks believe if we promote and our kids get more behind FS and GR this will go a long way towards making us a better wrestling state when two of the states ususally mentioned as great (OH and NJ) seem to pay more attention to folkstyle.  My mindest is any style is going to help you get better, basically anything that gets a kid out on the mat is OK by me, but I prefer my own kids to get better/concentrate on folk.  That's why I kinda think people who attack HYWAY are a little off base.  What are your thoughts? 

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As a coach, wrestling folkstyle year round would burn me out.  It would get boring not changing things up in the room.  As a wrestler I also would get bored and burnt out with folkstyle.  The main reason is the conditioning it takes to stay at a competitive level.  The conditioning aspect alone makes it so a kid must train almost the same as he is during the high school season(5 times a week 2+hours a day).  That kind of grind wears on a kid mentally and physically.  As a coach I certainly don't want my kids mentally or physically drained and hating wrestling.

 

Wrestling the international styles can be a form of cross-training that can help with skillsets that aren't exactly emphasized enough in folkstyle.  Things like handfighting and setups you learn in greco.  There is no better way to learn how to handfight and battle for each inch than to wrestle greco.  When I wrestled, I never tried it because it looked goofy and I didn't headlock people.  Now as a coach I love to wrestle greco and love to teach the skills that go with it.  I don't expect everyone to wrestle greco at Fargo, but in the room, at a few local tournaments and even the state level will help a kid's development.  Another skill that seems to be a lost art and isn't emphasized enough in folkstyle is solid leg defense.  Too many kids are now resorting to the grab a leg and roll defense, which can work against some opponents, but not all of them.  In freestyle you cannot do that and it emphasizes the basics of stopping the head and getting your legs back.  The funk wrestling is also a product of poor offensive technique from a set-up to the actual shot.  Poor technique from an offensive position obviously will be punished in the international styles. Another incentive is learning how to prevent turns, if you can prevent an opponent from turning you to 90 degrees, you should be fairly good at preventing an opponent from turning you to 45 degrees and holding you for 2 seconds. Going into freestyle defense mode on bottom with 20 seconds left in a close match is a good option to have.

 

I also like the 2 out of 3 period breakdown for two reasons.  The first one is I get to see how my kid can adjust from period to period.  This is vital in any style of match, but with the 30 second break you can get more done.  I also like it for the fact that kids get to experience maintaining a lead late in a period(match) and going for broke when they are down late in a period(match).  To me, the kids are getting 2 or 3 matches in per real match.  

 

Those are the main reasons why I want my kids to wrestle the international styles. I think many coaches/wrestlers/parents are afraid of those styles so they site the "new(8 year old) rules" for not competing.  Any kid that is going to be a senior was 10 years old or less when the rules changed and probably can't remember wrestling under them.  

 

Wrestling any style in the offseason will help a kid improve, there is no question about that.  I really can't comment on either NJ or Ohio based on just one year.  New Jersey did send a solid Junior Duals team to Oklahoma with some kids I didn't see at Fargo on it.  This also could have just been a really strong year for Indiana whereas it was a down year for those states.  Without 3-5 years worth of data it is hard to tell.

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Here are Ohio and New Jersey's numbers for the past five years.

 

Year Ohio NJ

2012 17 19

2011 19 21

2010 14 21

2009 18 19

2008 27 24

Avg 19 20.8

 

As you can see they are down by about 2 AAs this year.  Both of their Greco numbers are very flaky, Ohio didn't have a Junior Greco AA in 2009 and 2010, but had 5 in 2008.

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Here are Ohio and New Jersey's numbers for the past five years.

 

Year Ohio NJ

2012 17 19

2011 19 21

2010 14 21

2009 18 19

2008 27 24

Avg 19 20.8

 

As you can see they are down by about 2 AAs this year.  Both of their Greco numbers are very flaky, Ohio didn't have a Junior Greco AA in 2009 and 2010, but had 5 in 2008.

So based on these numbers it appears that they really never do much at Fargo, at least as far as their pedigrees are concerned.  So I would guess that it's fair to say they concentrate more on folkstyle than the intl styles.  And maybe it's a population thing.  They are so much bigger than IN they can get away with, for all intents and purposes, "ignoring" the intl styles whereas, some would argue, and not incorrectly, I might add, that IN is too small to ignore intl styles and has to embrace it to get better.  Others would argue we need, in addition, to class wrestling.  Frankly, if SD has class wrestling then IN should too, I suppose.  LOL

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The scoring is the same as it was 30 years ago with the addition of the push-out.  Nothing funky about it, 1 point for a takedown, 2 for a turn, 1 for a hand to hand turn, 3 for feet to back, etc.

 

The one thing that I hate about Freestyle and Greco is that you can get a one point lead and just run away.  I seen that so many times in the matches that were broadcast and wonder where is the challenge in that?  I love all forms of wrestling but I personally just have a hard time watching some of these matches.  No stalling/fleeing the mat.....

 

Malloy/Brill would have been a great folkstyle match for sure and it is what it is......By the way, I think the 3 in the second period was way more correct than the one in the 1st period....

 

Congrats to all of our Indiana wrestlers.....Very proud

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You can't tell me you don't see people running away in folkstyle too.  Heck most the refs are afraid to call stalling any time other than with 30 seconds left in match.  Or when the person with a lead plants himself right on the edge to jump out of bounds each time his opponent comes close to scoring.

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I am definitely a fan of folk over any other style but there is some ridiculous stalling that takes place in folkstyle.  The thing about FS I'm not a fan of is the cheap backpoints that are awarded. 

I wouldn't necessarily call them cheap. It is not easy to leg lace or gut wrench a good wrestler especially when those are the two primary moves from the mat. If I tell you in folkstyle that I am going to turn you in a half or cradle and you have 20 seconds to defend it, it won't be easy for me to get a turn, even one to expose you 90 degrees.

 

From your feet or any other position scoring exposure comes from capitalizing on your opponent's poor technique.  Lack of setups, head down on shots, arms out when shooting, etc. are all areas that a good wrestler will score off their opponent on.

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I wouldn't necessarily call them cheap. It is not easy to leg lace or gut wrench a good wrestler especially when those are the two primary moves from the mat. If I tell you in folkstyle that I am going to turn you in a half or cradle and you have 20 seconds to defend it, it won't be easy for me to get a turn, even one to expose you 90 degrees.

 

From your feet or any other position scoring exposure comes from capitalizing on your opponent's poor technique.  Lack of setups, head down on shots, arms out when shooting, etc. are all areas that a good wrestler will score off their opponent on.

I guess I see them as cheap when it's off a takedown.  I agree that scoring back points from the mat is very difficult in FS.

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The .001% of kids who want to win an olympic championship will do the necessary work but to push every kid towards that goal is insane. There goal should be to compete at the college level to help give them the best chance to succeed in their life beyond wrestling. I know i had no desire to win an olympic championship when i was in high school and i was pretty good. I knew that i wasn't a part of that upper echelon and i was ok with it. I wanted to win a High schoool State title and An NCAA national title and i couldn't do that in Freestyle or grecco.

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You can't tell me you don't see people running away in folkstyle too.  Heck most the refs are afraid to call stalling any time other than with 30 seconds left in match.  Or when the person with a lead plants himself right on the edge to jump out of bounds each time his opponent comes close to scoring.

 

Y2, I agree with you on that one.  I think that stalling and stalemates should be called way more quicker than they are.  It would keep the action moving and exciting for the crowd...  Especially in the bigger weight classes.  Even at the State Finals you see half the crowd has left when we get to the bigger weight classes and in my opinion, that is not fair to the big kids that have put forth the same effort all year long as everybody else....

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Y2, I agree with you on that one.  I think that stalling and stalemates should be called way more quicker than they are.  It would keep the action moving and exciting for the crowd...  Especially in the bigger weight classes.  Even at the State Finals you see half the crowd has left when we get to the bigger weight classes and in my opinion, that is not fair to the big kids that have put forth the same effort all year long as everybody else....

 

I don't think a ref calling stalling or stalemates more quickly when heavier weight kids are on the mat is going to do much to change the style of wrestling you see displayed by the heavies.  Better have a paramedic and a portable defibrillator matside if this occurs.

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Fargo Observations:

 

1) Illinois and California stood out the most to me.  Illinois because they are just that dominant.  I do believe they have the best wrestling in the country now from top to bottom.  Pennsylvania was still in the mix, as was Michigan, Minnesota, etc. but Illinois handled their business.  California stuck out because it was just so many of them.  I don't believe I saw them at any of the duals, but their boys were solid and their girls were just as solid being dual national champions as well.

 

2) Folkstyle vs. F/G:  I still do not believe that kids should focus simply on Folksytle during the offseason by any means.  As was stated earlier, wrestling F/G makes you a complete wrestler and there is no denying that because it requires better technique and rewards good habits.  Focusing on just "singles and doubles", as opposed to "gut wrenches and push outs", is a sure way towards average.  By the way, push outs were enforced to create more action and keep the wrestling on the mat, which is good for everybody.  It may not be well liked, but wrestling on the edge is a habit our high school wrestlers all need to do a better job of.  As coaches, I'm certain we have told our wrestlers more than once they can't stop wrestling on the edge.  In F/G, the rules do it for us.  How does that help Folkstyle? Creating better habits.  Focusing on singles and doubles for the folkstyle season is fine but, again, how many times do we as coaches (hopefully) impress the importance of keeping your head up on our shots? Plenty.  But in folkstyle you can afford to sit down there and hang on a leg more because there's less trouble, so a kid feels less of a need to focus on it and that goes the same for coaches.  In Freestyle, if you shoot with your head down, there's no hanging on legs because you're more than likely going to get turned.  Better habits.  The benefits of wrestling Greco is a no-brainer for those that have, but unfortunately many of our coaches didn't, didn't like it, or weren't that successful at it and so that flows down to our kids.

 

This is in no way a knock on Folkstyle because this is the schoolastic wrestling style.  It is the style we wrestle in high school and the style we will be wrestling in college, so there is no wonder people tend to focus on this.  There have been conversations about just going to the Disney Duals, or HYWAY events, etc.  Don't get me wrong: Disney has some extremely tough competition, and there are powerhouse programs, such as Yorktown who go train with Brandon (FL) and prepare hard, among other schools who make this voyage.  But Yorktown also pushes Freestyle and Greco just as much as Folkstyle so it's no wonder they are among the elite.  Perry Merdian, inarguably the best team in the state, also handles their business out at Disney BUT THEY ALSO GO TO FARGO!!!!!!  Why do they go to Fargo and wrestle F/G?  To give their kids the best opportunity.  F/G helps their kids get better habits with 360 degrees of wrestling, Fargo has the best competition in the country, and Fargo is where the college coaches are at.  If you want your kid to be seen by the top tier coaches in the country you send them to Fargo.  How do you go to Fargo?  Wrestle Freestyle and Greco.  I had plenty of conversations in Fargo with coaches like Senshiro Abe, Les Gutches, Eric Guerrero from Oklahoma State, Stephen Abas, Rob Eiter from Penn, Mike Dixon from Old Dominion, Williams from Michigan State, coaches from Penn State, Michigan, and many, many others that say the same thing:  they come to Fargo because these are truly the best representation of kids in the country.  As a wrestler, then, how do I get there?  Wrestle Freestyle and Greco as well as Folkstyle.  This doesnt mean this is the only place college coaches see you.  It just means this is where the most do.  Again, this is no knock on Folsktyle or Disney, or a plug for Fargo, because it can be pretty expensive, or anything else.  I am saying all of this to say that it does absolutely no disservice to Folkstyle by wrestling Freestyle and Greco in the summer.  IT ONLY GIVES YOU BETTER CHANCE AT SUCCESS!

 

3)  Ok, I digress to really why I'm posting:  Fargo Observations:  Team Indiana, the athletes, the coaches, and the ISWA should be proud of themselves.  The kids handled themselves great on and off the mat, they battled hard, and the trip was an enjoyable experience for everyone I believe.  We did not have one wrestler I think that was satisfied with their performances, including the All-Americans.  This was refreshing to me because it shows our kids are hungry to be the best.  We still, as a state, need to do better on top and bottom, along with being more physical, setting up our shots, and having that winning attitude - but overall a pretty good performance.  The girls did well too in building on Indiana's foundation of girl's wrestling.  I hate to name drop because all of the kids shed sweat and battled hard, and I could be doing a disservice by only acknowledging the best, so for that reason I will say that I give much respect to every athlete that competed.  Truly.  However, aside from the notables, I will say that I am excited about the young group of guys that are gearing themselves to be Indiana's next chapter of studs:  Champaign, Stevenson, Coy, Jolley-Little, Tolley, etc.  Other young guys that were pretty impressive were Hildebrandt, Glogouski, Atkinson, Mammolenti, Malone, Popp, etc.  Again, it's hard to name drop everyone, but these are some of the guys I saw personally.  (Don't hate me boys if I didn't put your name up there :)  

 

All-in-all, it is time to get ready for the upcoming season and I am looking for the kids that wrestle Freestyle and Greco to make the biggest jump and again be the majority of state qualifiers, placers and champions.  There are some good folkstyle tournaments coming up here soon and I, along with probably everyone on this board, am interested to see how this year's h.s. season goes.  Only time will tell.  Nice job again Team Indiana, the coaching staff, the wrestlers, parents, fans, and the ISWA for making this summer another step towards greatness for Indiana Wrestling!

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My view is first that Folkstyle was created in the U.S., Greco-Roman and Freestyle have been around long before Folkstyle. I personally focused on Greco-Roman my last two years of high school and did not put my focus on Folkstyle because to me an Olympic Gold medal is the pinnacle of our sport, but that is just me.

 

1) For those of you who say you should focus only on folkstyle and need to be focused on your shots only, does freestyle not teach you to finish shots crisply? You can't always just "funk" your way out of a bad situation in freestyle like you can in folkstyle so you have to finish and finish sharp. Plus with Greco it teaches you hand fighting and hand control better than the other 2 styles and of course throws as well which is important in folkstyle as well.

 

2) I personally hate seeing what the mindset of folkstyle all year has done to the number of freestyle and Greco-Roman tournaments in Indiana. I remember when there used to be close to 100 kids at a greco tournament on a friday night and 300+ kids at a freestyle tournament on a saturday and it is nowhere near that anymore.

 

3) I also think when you talk about life after wrestling and college opportunities does freestyle and Greco at Fargo not open those opportunities up as well. I can remember seeing a ton of college coaches there when I wrestled at Fargo scouting and recruiting.

 

I'm not saying Folkstyle isn't important but to me Freestyle and Greco are every bit as important for making a wrestler successful.

 

 

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