Fabio Jr. Posted July 10, 2012 Share Posted July 10, 2012 Indiana is not terrible...but compared to pennsylvania and ohio we are behind...big time....Illinois not so much we competed with them not too long ago... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1oldwrestler Posted July 10, 2012 Share Posted July 10, 2012 Illinois not so much we competed with them not too long ago... You been following the Junior and Cadet Duals that took place not more than a month ago? If you have, I think you'd have a different opinion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wildcatcountry97 Posted July 10, 2012 Share Posted July 10, 2012 State Populations: Indiana: 6,501,582 Illinois: 12,864,380 Pennsylvania: 12,734,905 When you have twice the number of people you are undoubtedly going to have more good athletes/wrestlers across the board. I dont know how much 'cathing up' we can do unless we double our population. I understand that Indiana doesn't pull in international wrestlers to coach the high school level too often, but the comment that someone was suprised he would come to indiana is putting our state down a little bit don't you think? I'm sure he will be an excellent coach and that there were plenty of opportunities out there for him, but it's not like he was going to walk in and take over a contending D1 program. In many respects i feel coaching high school is much more rewarding that coaching college kids, and perhaps building a program in a good community is his goal. Best of luck to him and I am certainly glad he came back to Indiana wrestling. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Y2CJ41 Posted July 10, 2012 Share Posted July 10, 2012 But size shouldn't matter right? If we just work harder than Illinois or Pennsylvania we should be just as good.........right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1oldwrestler Posted July 11, 2012 Share Posted July 11, 2012 As for Illinois, I've said this a lot on here over the years, Indiana's TOP kid vs. Illinois' TOP kid is competitive and I believe this will continue. The difference is...DEPTH. I would disagree. If you could ever take the 14 AAA champs from illinois, large school, and pit them against our 14 champs, indiana would get rolled. Lucky if we won 4 matches. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
110 PERCENT Posted July 11, 2012 Share Posted July 11, 2012 How the rankings see Illinois (Best State Champ) vs Indiana State Champ...(intermat rankings) 106-Micic #4 over Williams NR IN1 IL0 113-Brooks #1 over Jimenez #9 IN2 IL0 120-Cortez #5 over Petrov #9 IN2 IL1 126-Klimara #9 over Ayersman #15 IN2 IL2 132-Richards #5 over McKinley #11 IN2 IL3 138-Jackson #14 over Langenderfer NR IN3 IL3 145-Tsirtsis #1 over Moylan #18 IN4 IL3 152-Schneider #3 over Bradley NR IN4 IL4 160-Reel #9 over Harvey NR IN4 IL5 170-Jackson NR over Mappes NR IN4 IL6 182-Brooks #2 over Lynde NR IN4 IL7 195-Johnson #4 over Silga #9 IN4 IL8 220-Marchok #4 over Kral NR IN4 IL9 285-Buss NR over Hall NR (IMO) IN4 IL10 I see tossups at 113, 120, 126, 132, 195, and 285. 5 of 6 are given to IL. Like i said rankings say 4-5 wins for IN but could easily go to 7-8 wins for IN IMO. But yes, IL's depth is impressive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Y2CJ41 Posted July 11, 2012 Share Posted July 11, 2012 At the IN vs. IL dual 132 Richards (IL 2x state champ) dec over Jared McKinley 5-2 170 - Jackson (IL state champ) MD over Sean Mappes - 18-9 285 - Buss (IL state champ) dec over Abraham Hall 6-2 Note that this is one of our stronger groups of state champions with almost all of them going to a DI school except Brooks and Hall. Brooks could have chosen to go D1 and of the three underclassmen that were state champions it is pretty much a given Sliga and Micic will go D1 with Bradley a high possibility. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1oldwrestler Posted July 12, 2012 Share Posted July 12, 2012 But yes, IL's depth is impressive. Indiana people seem to give a lot of respect to PA and OH but kind of slight IL by saying it's "depth" that makes IL better than IN. Well, I'd argue it's depth that makes PA and OH better than IN as well. Depth is just another word for better as far as this discussion is concerned. Steel sharpens steel, whatever conrny phrase you want to use, applies here. Bigger states have bigger populations to choose from and better competition to compete against regularly. This is true for IL, PA and OH. This makes BETTER athletes. It comes from depth but, in the end, these states just have better guys than ours, regardless. My son and I were talking about it and we think IN competes favorably with states like WI, MN and MI. Leave the big boys (PA, OH, NJ & IL - probably in that order) out of the discussion as to who IN competes with favorably. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Y2CJ41 Posted July 12, 2012 Share Posted July 12, 2012 Doing any type of statistical analysis of Fargo, NCAA, rankings, etc usually puts Indiana around the 10th spot depending on the year. We have had an upswing lately, but even this year did not field a DI All-American. The top states are usually Pennsylvania, Ohio, California, New Jersey and Illinois. The second tier, which we creep into once in a while consists of Wisconson, Michigan, Minnesota, Oklahoma and Iowa. The third tier in which we hold our own most of the time includes Indiana, Virginia, Missouri, Florida, New York and Texas. Other solid states include Kansas, Georgia(up and coming and FAST), Washington, Oregon and Colorado. The first tier is pretty solid and while they order changes these are usually considered the top five wrestling states. The second tier has some years with very good results, but it is more trendy. They sometimes break the top 5, but not on a regular basis. The second tier has solid results year in year, but can have not so good years and some bad years mixed in. The last couple tiers are more volatile as these states have runs of good years and runs of not as good years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
indiana buck i Posted July 12, 2012 Share Posted July 12, 2012 I was transfered here from Ohio about 5 years ago and the differnce is the mind set. In Ohio the kids who don't make the wrestling team go out for basketball (not the otherway around like here) and every football coach has their linemen in the wrestling room. Most of our schools sponsor the youth clubs and they start in kindergarden. The biggest difference is that the youth and middle school seasons start in October not January/Febuary. My son was in the elementary state finals in 2004/05 and they were held at Bowling Green in front of 10,000 people (he was in third grade), how do we compete with that? That being said for having half the ammount of people in the state I think Indiana does a very respectable job nationally, when we try to compare ourselves to the Ohios and PAs it's like comparing apples to oranges. There just isn't the population base or opportunity to support that kind of success on a broad level, at the top we are very strong but drop deamatically from there. When we moved here the one thing I did like more was the emphasis on the olympic styles, in OH it was all folkstyle all the time. I think the exposure to the other styles makes our kids alot more adaptable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lpd096 Posted July 13, 2012 Share Posted July 13, 2012 I would disagree. If you could ever take the 14 AAA champs from illinois, large school, and pit them against our 14 champs, indiana would get rolled. Lucky if we won 4 matches. I don't know about "Rolled" but IL would probably win, but I still think it would be a competitive meet. I do agree with you about Illinois' prowess however, they just won 5 out of 6 in National Schoolboy, Cadet, and Junior competition for freestyle and greco vs. all of the big powers including Ohio and Pennsylvania. That's quite impressive for sure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Butt Drag Posted July 13, 2012 Share Posted July 13, 2012 Indiana people seem to give a lot of respect to PA and OH but kind of slight IL by saying it's "depth" that makes IL better than IN. Well, I'd argue it's depth that makes PA and OH better than IN as well. Depth is just another word for better as far as this discussion is concerned. Steel sharpens steel, whatever conrny phrase you want to use, applies here. Bigger states have bigger populations to choose from and better competition to compete against regularly. This is true for IL, PA and OH. This makes BETTER athletes. It comes from depth but, in the end, these states just have better guys than ours, regardless. My son and I were talking about it and we think IN competes favorably with states like WI, MN and MI. Leave the big boys (PA, OH, NJ & IL - probably in that order) out of the discussion as to who IN competes with favorably. Well said; you and Y2 are spot on. Laboratory experimental proof to support your point can be found by looking at the success of 'da Region' wrestlers in the last 10 years at Indiana State finals. An underpinning element to the success of those wrestlers is due to Illinois; more specifically to proximity to the Overtime Wrestling School of Wrestling. If you peruse their website and look at the list of dedicated Indiana wrestlers who trek an hour, 2-3 times per week in the off-season from 'da Region' to Naperville to lock horns with the best from Illinois & the Midwest it is pretty telling. But the story is not just the Indiana guys on the list, but just look around to the names Illinois guys in the room they train with all the time. As to the big picture support of Indiana wrestling at large, this is perhaps in my mind the primary reason I would support class wrestling; on one hand there is unique pride in the one-class system because in the end, we know the top guys are battle tested and have earned their badge of honor. But I have come to believe we need to incentivize success for the sport to grow, and create depth through success, which will keep more kids hungry in the sport knowing they have a shot. It's a tough balance, but as long as it does not become 'handing out soccer trophies to all', it can grow and stay meaningful in preparation for life's future lessons. (Side-note: Indiana basketball made a boneheaded decision because they miscalculated the value of history and how their consumer valued of their product. Indiana class basketball was a way of life, a special Friday night, and belief that each TOWN was chasing a holy grail. Just to be fan, or to make the team for most meant they became part of the lore, passion, and prestige of Indiana basketball, which drove the hunger of kids wanting to play. Heck I bet even basketball Sectional Champions got champ ring and a POA. ) As to the Indiana, Illinois wrestling argument on IL's depth, population and youth organization are the difference. Indiana has come a long way in improving the kids programs (thanks to many of the high school coaches), but having coached middle school in Illinois in the 1990's, I was blown away with the size and intensity of the machine that is the IKWF. It was on par or superior to the Indiana High School operation, and kept K-8 kids wrestling all the way into March. Regardless of the coaching quality, just having the organization in place is half the battle. Thus to improve Indiana wrestling, in addition to the coaches who help keep Indiana High school wrestling going (despite pathetic IHSAA support), I think class wrestling is the best for the future of the sport in Indiana for all. As well the IHSAA coaches need strengthen and find away to more people with wrestling experience voted to the various IHSAA boards, but not just coaches, they need to find former wrestlers who are now professionals out in the work force who may not be seen as to one-issue people and be threatening to the IHSAA machine. At the same time, continuing to cementing & grow the structure of the K-8 and those great volunteers who selflessly put on freestyle tournaments, and continue to grow K-8 programs, it's good to hopefully see the private training programs like the CIA's, Region Wrestling Academies, etc' succeed, as they have become important in filling a void. Y2, on top of what you guys have done with Indiana Mat, I really like what you guys have been doing with promoting the RTC's, and various camps and clinics, while trying to build a foundation at places like Garrett, keep it up the great work. http://overtimewrestling.com/students.html INDIANA HIGH SCHOOL STATE CHAMPIONS form OVERTIME WRESTLING Angel Escobedo - 2002 (IN) Mike Escobedo - 2002 (IN) Alex Tsirtsis - 2002 (IN) Alex Tsirtsis - 2004 (IN) Eric Galka - 2005 (IN) Eric McGill - 2006 (IN) Andrew Howe - 2006 (IN) Eric Galka - 2007 (IN) Eric McGill - 2007 (IN) Andrew Howe - 2007 (IN) Andrew Howe - 2008 (IN) Kyle Ayersman ? 2010 (IN) Kyle Ayersman - 2011 (IN) Kyle Ayersman - 2012 (IN) Jose Escobedo - 2002 (2nd, IN) Josh Garza - 2002 (4th, IN) ose Escobedo - 2002 (2nd, IN) Josh Garza - 2002 (4th, IN) Andrew Howe - 2005 (2nd, IN) Eric Howe - 2005 (3rd, IN) Brennan Cosgrove - 2006 (2nd, IN) Eric Galka - 2008 (2nd, IN) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1oldwrestler Posted July 13, 2012 Share Posted July 13, 2012 and every football coach has their linemen in the wrestling room. That would be heaven if that happened here Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wildcatcountry97 Posted July 22, 2012 Share Posted July 22, 2012 State Populations: Indiana: 6,501,582 Illinois: 12,864,380 Pennsylvania: 12,734,905 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- " But size shouldn't matter right? If we just work harder than Illinois or Pennsylvania we should be just as good.........right? " ---- No, I propose we divide up the National Championship based on the size of our states and we can just have 5 National Champions at each weight class.......Right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Y2CJ41 Posted July 23, 2012 Share Posted July 23, 2012 Thanks for answering the question, you proved my point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hoosierdad Posted July 23, 2012 Share Posted July 23, 2012 Here in Southern Indiana were I'm from, the middle school is now 5-8 grade and there are no elementary sports. Which means kids don't get an opportunity to wrestle until 5th grade, with the exception of those who send the younger kids to camps and clubs. ISWA events really help but the region we're in is a Basketball area and the school systems make sure we know that. Wrestling is treated like the red-headed step child and to see us as ever being a wrestling powerhouse again is unlikely at best. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lpd096 Posted July 25, 2012 Share Posted July 25, 2012 From INTERMATWRESTLE.COM State power? Yet again it was the Land of Lincoln who made its presence most known across levels and styles during "Fargo week." The state of Illinois had a total of 52 All-Americans combined from the four tournaments; 28 in Greco and 24 in freestyle, 27 at the Junior level and 25 at the Cadet. Illinois squads won both team race titles at the Junior level, while finishing second in both of the Cadet tournaments. The IKWF, which is the USA Wrestling organization in that state, should be commended for its leadership, as should the coaches and wrestlers, because there is extreme buy-in for the USA Wrestling tournaments across levels and styles. During the month of June, Illinois teams won five of the six dual meet championships as well -- doubling up at Schoolboy and Junior levels, while splitting at the Cadet level (first in Greco, second in freestyle). The only other states to have top five team standings in all four tournaments during the past week were Minnesota and Pennsylvania. Minnesota won the Cadet Greco title, was tied for fourth in Cadet free, fourth in Junior Greco, and third in Junior free. Their wrestlers combined for 36 total All-American finishes; 19 in Greco and 17 in freestyle, 16 at the Junior level and 20 for the Cadets. Pennsylvania won the Cadet freestyle title, was third in Cadet Greco, tied for second in Junior Greco, and fourth in Junior freestyle. The Keystone State had forty All-American finishes, second most by any state, across the four tournaments; 18 in Greco and 22 in freestyle, 25 Cadet and 15 Junior. Of additional note is that the Iowa Junior teams finished second in both styles, actually tied for second in Greco-Roman. Ten earned All-American honors in freestyle, while seven did the deed in Greco-Roman. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wildcatcountry97 Posted August 3, 2012 Share Posted August 3, 2012 That was sarcasm there. My point - That if there were more than one national champion based on the size of the state it would devalue the National Championship - the exact same thing multiple state championships does. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lawbag125 Posted August 14, 2012 Share Posted August 14, 2012 Maybe Indiana could have Y2 head up a committee to demand that the US have divisions for smaller states to compete against small states and large population states against other large population states. This is purely in good humor (maybe bad humor because I might be the only one to find it funny). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Y2CJ41 Posted August 14, 2012 Share Posted August 14, 2012 Maybe Indiana could have Y2 head up a committee to demand that the US have divisions for smaller states to compete against small states and large population states against other large population states. This is purely in good humor (maybe bad humor because I might be the only one to find it funny). We would get trounced by Iowa and Wisconsin, so lets not go that far. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jbburn12 Posted August 14, 2012 Share Posted August 14, 2012 Well I think in Indiana the 800 pound gorilla in the room is....... Basketball. My sense is at the youth level most kids or parents choose basketball in the winter. As you all know its Indiana's religion. I am sure not saying that the next Alex Tsirtsis,Andrew Howe, Angel Escobedo is sitting the bench on the freshman B team at Floyd Central but there are probably plenty of athletic tough kids that will never be fast enough or tall enough to make an impact i basketball at the varsity level. My sense is though the boy plays youth basketball but by the time he realizes there is no future he feels its too late to try wrestling or I guess swimming also. This is not saying there aren't tons of kids wrestling ISWA and middle school but because of that its pretty tough to start wrestling in 9th or 10th grade with no previous experience. Basketball is of course very popular in Illinois and Ohio but you add in population differences ,the desire to play youth basketball anddddddddd the emphasis on basketball in the schools I dont think the state by state results should be surprising. Our best are as good as anyone's best but maybe we just don't have the same depth. I talked to a coach from a different state that was up for a big job in Indiana but said they just couldn't make it work to get him there. I joked that if he had been a basketball coach they would have made it work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maligned Posted August 15, 2012 Share Posted August 15, 2012 Our best are as good as anyone's best but maybe we just don't have the same depth. People sometimes say this, but it makes no sense to me. Illinois and Ohio have more all-americans at all the big tournaments and more all-americans in college. When Illinois brings a full-strength team to our Illinois/Indiana dual, they almost always win easily. In my opinion, depth and quality at the top feed off of each other. You can't separate the two for the most part. If you mean by "our best are as good as anyone's" that we have a couple guys at the top that would be in the starting 14 of any state each year, that's true. But if you mean that our best 14 could beat the truly best 14 of IL, OH, or PA, it's simply an underestimation of how strong they are. I love Indiana wrestling and believe we do quite well for the size of our state, but even our "best" (if you mean a full squad) is a notch below these states. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TripleB Posted August 15, 2012 Share Posted August 15, 2012 Some solid points from jbburn12 on basketball development and youth wrestling. Everybody wants there son to be the next Damon Bailey. AAU bball is a huge money maker. It's not about the hoops, it's about the bills. So many kids get strung along in AAU and if ever worse if Johnny isn't good enough to make the Culver 12 and under A,B,or C team, then Johnny's dad will just start his own Culver OUTLAWZ 12 and u team so he can play on that. Also I know some schools that carry two 7,8, and 9 teams with full rosters. Really?!?!?! If I'm a parent and my kid is the 12th man on the 9 B team, then maybe me and little Joey are having a talk. By that time they don't wrestle either b/c (A) wrestlers are (insert homophobic comment) or ( I can't wrestle b/c Joe Bob Jimmy wrestles and he's been wrestling since he was 4! Lots of frustrations in the Hoopin Hoosier state to deal with! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KarlHungus Posted August 15, 2012 Share Posted August 15, 2012 The CULVER RENEGADES are stacked with "late bloomers'. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jbburn12 Posted August 16, 2012 Share Posted August 16, 2012 @ Maligned .. I meant our best (all time best) are as good as Illinois' or any states buttttttttttt along that vein almost every state could make a list of their "Mt Rushmore" of wrestlers and anyone could go WOW. I don't think our depth matches Illinois . The main thing is this is fun to talk about. This isn't the forum but I imagine except for basketball Indiana's depth in most sports won't match lets say the surrounding "Big Ten" states. If it hasn't been done before I wonder whose busts would be carved in Indiana limestone on our "wrestling Mt Rushmore"? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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