Big Bob 77 Posted January 26, 2012 Share Posted January 26, 2012 how many times have people been awarded stalling? I know i have only been called a very very few times probably could count it on one hand. Gotta ask have you ever been hit with a stall call? Can't say I have ever met anyone that has wrestled at your level or the amount of years that havent been called for it. A good coach doesn't teach stalling but mat awareness is part of the sport, for instance a smart wrestler will get to the edge of the mat and quarter turn and shoot through the zone when in a defensive position and not willing to take risk as time is running out in a close match! Nobody wants to see this in the 2nd period but the last 30 seconds of a match that a wrestler may be up by 1 or 2 against another wrestler that's strong from his feet, we are kidding ourselves to think it's not happening and in the example given here I think I have heard coaches yelling be smart here...JMO Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Bob 77 Posted January 26, 2012 Share Posted January 26, 2012 25 seconds left in the match if im winning ill tie up and take a good shot why let him shoot and get the chance of taking me down? I have always been taught not to stall and wrestle the whole match i love wrestling guys who want to stall Sorry this was the quote I meant to use on my reply above...lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RAGUOC79 Posted January 26, 2012 Share Posted January 26, 2012 On stall or no stall...or mat awarenesss--- Take your chances, don't quit wrestling or pay the consequences....remember just because you get away with for 3/4 of the season doesn't mean it won't come back to bite ya On referee's calling it----Make the call and be fair to both wrestlers, be quick and decisive, On top/bottom wrestling----Let's see some action, our sport would garner more fans if we sped the pace up and got quicker re-starts ( I hate when wrestler's won't get off the hips) On OT or BIG matches----Doesn't matter...hate to see the ref call one but if it's the right call, make it Double Stalling----When neutral I could see this.... I personally believe that ref's have some responsibility to throw hints/pointers/quick phrases towards wrestlers so they understand that it may be coming, whatever the call, not just stalling ( I have seen this done from time to time, keep it up).....I played collegiate football and I appreciated a ref that would warn you on a possibility of holding, or illegal hands in the face, not being properly alined (too far off LOS as a OT)....these pointers made me appreciate them and want to do right and play within the rules (some which I wasn't aware I was breaking).....I know many of us are hyprocrits in the sense of when calls don't go in favor of us or our wrestler, I wholeheartedly believe that the ref in many sports, can bring an aspect of wisdom, professionalism and tone to a match that will be more pleasant for all. Someone has to win and someone has to lose. That's life. I wish every young wrestler the best as the tournament series begins. See ya at Conseco (or whatever it is called nowadays) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
awood2 Posted January 26, 2012 Share Posted January 26, 2012 Football has a play clock, basketball has a shot clock, wrestling has stalling. People don't pay for a staring contest... However, I don't believe there should ever be a hard-and-fast way for calling stalling. If I have a six point lead, or even a three point lead, there is a reason. You have to understand that at high levels of wrestling referees main job is to get a clear winner. If a wrestler in the quarter finals gets a three point lead he should be able to 'defend' that lead. He should not be allowed to flee, avoid offensive attacks, etc. But, it is up to the losing wrestler to push the issue. Sometimes you will see a match when the loser is laying on his belly and the wrestler with the lead is just laying on him. As a referee, in this situation if both guys are happy with the score, so am I! Stalling, if called uniformly is wrong, it takes a confident official who can follow the course of a match mentally to get stalling right. When called right it is a beautiful thing. On many occasions I have seen an official call stalling on a kid, the kid responds and scores offensive points. A good official then turns to the coach and says, "half of those points should go to me." A good official calls stalling when an athlete is preventing the progress of a match (0-0 score, zero offensive points). If he is up by 4 in a tight match, the other guy better be helping sell that call by pushing the issue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charger wrestling dad Posted January 26, 2012 Share Posted January 26, 2012 On stall or no stall...or mat awarenesss--- Take your chances, don't quit wrestling or pay the consequences....remember just because you get away with for 3/4 of the season doesn't mean it won't come back to bite ya On referee's calling it----Make the call and be fair to both wrestlers, be quick and decisive, On top/bottom wrestling----Let's see some action, our sport would garner more fans if we sped the pace up and got quicker re-starts ( I hate when wrestler's won't get off the hips) On OT or BIG matches----Doesn't matter...hate to see the ref call one but if it's the right call, make it Double Stalling----When neutral I could see this.... I personally believe that ref's have some responsibility to throw hints/pointers/quick phrases towards wrestlers so they understand that it may be coming, whatever the call, not just stalling ( I have seen this done from time to time, keep it up).....I played collegiate football and I appreciated a ref that would warn you on a possibility of holding, or illegal hands in the face, not being properly alined (too far off LOS as a OT)....these pointers made me appreciate them and want to do right and play within the rules (some which I wasn't aware I was breaking).....I know many of us are hyprocrits in the sense of when calls don't go in favor of us or our wrestler, I wholeheartedly believe that the ref in many sports, can bring an aspect of wisdom, professionalism and tone to a match that will be more pleasant for all. Someone has to win and someone has to lose. That's life. I wish every young wrestler the best as the tournament series begins. See ya at Conseco (or whatever it is called nowadays) Well put. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charger wrestling dad Posted January 26, 2012 Share Posted January 26, 2012 Football has a play clock, basketball has a shot clock, wrestling has stalling. People don't pay for a staring contest... However, I don't believe there should ever be a hard-and-fast way for calling stalling. If I have a six point lead, or even a three point lead, there is a reason. You have to understand that at high levels of wrestling referees main job is to get a clear winner. If a wrestler in the quarter finals gets a three point lead he should be able to 'defend' that lead. He should not be allowed to flee, avoid offensive attacks, etc. But, it is up to the losing wrestler to push the issue. Sometimes you will see a match when the loser is laying on his belly and the wrestler with the lead is just laying on him. As a referee, in this situation if both guys are happy with the score, so am I! Stalling, if called uniformly is wrong, it takes a confident official who can follow the course of a match mentally to get stalling right. When called right it is a beautiful thing. On many occasions I have seen an official call stalling on a kid, the kid responds and scores offensive points. A good official then turns to the coach and says, "half of those points should go to me." A good official calls stalling when an athlete is preventing the progress of a match (0-0 score, zero offensive points). If he is up by 4 in a tight match, the other guy better be helping sell that call by pushing the issue. I agree with what you are saying, but it's too often that appears that a Ref is biased one way or another. By that I mean hit one guy for stalling, next period same thing happening but the wrestlers have switched position top/bottom and no stalling. I have seen a few refs, some I even call friends who I liked to give a hard time to, who tell the wrestlers those tid bits of info that give you a idea what is happening. You can her them say thing like Red you need to move, watch that arm, green stay in the circle etc. They give these wrestlers the chance to correct the action or inaction, but at the same time aren't afraid to make the call, even if it ends the tie or the OT becuase of point awarded. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1oldwrestler Posted January 26, 2012 Share Posted January 26, 2012 I too wish h.s. Refs were more verbal like the college refs, at least the ones doing the big 10 matches on the btn. I have never heard a h.s. Ref being verbal like that here in Indiana. Im guessing they exist, ive just never been around one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Walter Sobchak Posted January 26, 2012 Share Posted January 26, 2012 awood, nice statement, if both wrestlers are happy with the score why should you call it. The one time I really dislike stalling called is: Tight match, lets say 2-1.... wrestlers go out of bounds... come back to center, losing wrestlers dives in on shot immediately on whistle which causes winning wrestler to sprawl....(what else can he do right) bam stalling tied up.... one of my least favorite calls in the sport. usually a kid is rewarded with terrible technique just diving in .....I even saw it called once where a kid dives in, sprawl, spin behind for Two but yet also stalling....really now come on stripes cost the team a point for major decision. Am I wrong!!!????? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rookies03 Posted January 26, 2012 Share Posted January 26, 2012 I heard some refs talk about a clinic a few years back talking about counting shots. I think inexperienced refs rely on this thought process too much. What are the wrestlers doing in neutral? Avoiding the 10 ft circle? Blocking the other wrestler? Simply defending the other wrestlers offense without countering with offense (ie snap down/go behind)? Thats what the refs should be looking for. Some kids are not good at shots and that is not their offense. Have you ever heard a coach say "Stalling on Red!!! He hasnt attempted 1 throw!" So why do we hear "Red hasnt taken any shots" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maligned Posted January 27, 2012 Share Posted January 27, 2012 I heard some refs talk about a clinic a few years back talking about counting shots. I think inexperienced refs rely on this thought process too much. What are the wrestlers doing in neutral? Avoiding the 10 ft circle? Blocking the other wrestler? Simply defending the other wrestlers offense without countering with offense (ie snap down/go behind)? Thats what the refs should be looking for. Some kids are not good at shots and that is not their offense. Have you ever heard a coach say "Stalling on Red!!! He hasnt attempted 1 throw!" So why do we hear "Red hasnt taken any shots" A lot of top-level officials use this technique--but it's not just rigid counting. All the things you mention have to be considered. After a few years' of experience officiating, I always used this technique as one tool for determining stalling; but I counted offensive moves of all types, not just shots. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
awood2 Posted January 27, 2012 Share Posted January 27, 2012 I heard some refs talk about a clinic a few years back talking about counting shots. I think inexperienced refs rely on this thought process too much. What are the wrestlers doing in neutral? Avoiding the 10 ft circle? Blocking the other wrestler? Simply defending the other wrestlers offense without countering with offense (ie snap down/go behind)? Thats what the refs should be looking for. Some kids are not good at shots and that is not their offense. Have you ever heard a coach say "Stalling on Red!!! He hasnt attempted 1 throw!" So why do we hear "Red hasnt taken any shots" Even in a staring contest one is working harder than the other... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rookies03 Posted January 27, 2012 Share Posted January 27, 2012 A lot of top-level officials use this technique--but it's not just rigid counting. All the things you mention have to be considered. After a few years' of experience officiating, I always used this technique as one tool for determining stalling; but I counted offensive moves of all types, not just shots. Yes a lot of top officials look at everything not just shots but it is the inexperienced officials that rationalize their stalling call with just shot counting and verbally express that to the coaches. The coaches then use that same rationale to try and get a stall call. Same as a wrestler not coming off the hips. While this can be stalling it does not define it. There are several moves where the wrestler on top can turn his/her opponent without coming of the hips. Backing up, Not taking shots, staying on the hips are all good indicators for stalling but are not absolutes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WingMan Posted January 29, 2012 Share Posted January 29, 2012 Love this topic as I have posted this question for the last 4 years and seen some great responses. From my perspective, it's the 80-20 rule. 80% of the wrestlers don't know they are stalling (the less experienced wrestlers) and 20% of the wrestlers (the seasoned wrestlers) know exactly what they are doing. I believe 100% of the coaches know exactly what is going on and allow it or not. I see a lot of stalemate calls where I believe "double" stalling should be called to send the warning to each wrestler and let them know the official is looking closely. Yesterday at sectionals I watched a match where mid-3rd period (score was 2 us, 1 them) the opponent was moving forward pushing our wrestler off the mat with no offense (no shots, no setups...) but our wrestler backed out without trying to circle the opponent back to center. This happened about 4 times before our wrestler got called for stalling. Should have been double stalling in my opinion as both were definitely stalling. The results of the match don't matter but the opponent, by not being penalized didn't change his behavior as he didn't see it as a violation so did he learn anything? Will that strategy work for him the next match? Ok, I will tell you the result, the opponent did the same thing again and our guy circled back, swept a leg and pinned him (this was in the finals by the way) and the opponent was a decent wrestler, he just chose to be passive in the finals which cost him the championship. As long as stalling is an objective call from the official, I don't see a concrete set of criteria for stalling ever being established. We tell our wrestler to never get into a position to where stalling should be considered as an option or alternative. I think that is the best advice one can give. In short, don't put yourself in a position where the official can effect the end result. Many of the responses I have received on this topic I believe are from coaches where the tactic of stalling is part of their "strategery" which I find dissappointing. I know, many, many will disagree with my opinion and thats fine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jacob Posted January 29, 2012 Share Posted January 29, 2012 Strategy, a win is a win is a win. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barrq Posted January 29, 2012 Share Posted January 29, 2012 I seen a first Saturday. A ref started signaling stalling and the the kid took a shot and he waved it off. You would think he had already decided it was stalling. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
awood2 Posted January 31, 2012 Share Posted January 31, 2012 At least he was thinking... : There are refs that have the philosophy, "call what happens & stalling doesn't 'happen'!" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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