Jump to content
Sign in to follow this  
hoosierdad

Honor system for ISWA tournaments!

Recommended Posts

Indy Nationals does not allow general faxed weigh-ins for all out of state wrestlers.  There is an option though that is only allowed if pre-approved and for wrestlers that actually wrestle at a sanctioned event on Saturday.  There is a form that must completed and signed by the tournament director or head official (including name and phone number for reference) that shows the Saturday morning weight.   There are many events going on at this time of the year.  This option allows wrestlers to participate that would not otherwise make it to weigh ins due to another tournament.   My son competes in tournaments out of state all of the time and has been allowed to do this a few times.   

Do not confuse the limited faxed weigh in option that is offered by Indy Nationals with the local tournaments where mom and dad are using the bathroom scales or guessing at juniors weight and sending it in on their own. Weight challenges are also allowed although I am not sure what the guidelines are for them.   I know it is not a perfect system but all efforts are made to keep it fair to the wrestlers that weigh in.

 

I don't mean to sound cynical, rather, I am just questioning as I am unfamiliar.  If I were to take my son to a tournament that Saturday that has fax/email in weigh-ins, then ask the tournament director to sign off, would those fax/email weigh-ins count?  If these are allowed, it really is no different than the local tournaments.  If not, I am glad to know it and would like to know what all these competitors or their coaches/parents are really required to do to meet the criteria.  What qualifies?  Why can't these kids be at the weigh-ins for this tournament?  Would they be there if there were no other possibilities?  Would forcing everyone to meet the exact same criteria (weigh-in at the same place/same time) lower the tournament somehow?  Could it possibly raise it?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Indy Nationals does not allow general faxed weigh-ins for all out of state wrestlers.  There is an option though that is only allowed if pre-approved and for wrestlers that actually wrestle at a sanctioned event on Saturday.  There is a form that must completed and signed by the tournament director or head official (including name and phone number for reference) that shows the Saturday morning weight.   There are many events going on at this time of the year.  This option allows wrestlers to participate that would not otherwise make it to weigh ins due to another tournament.   My son competes in tournaments out of state all of the time and has been allowed to do this a few times.  

Do not confuse the limited faxed weigh in option that is offered by Indy Nationals with the local tournaments where mom and dad are using the bathroom scales or guessing at juniors weight and sending it in on their own. Weight challenges are also allowed although I am not sure what the guidelines are for them.   I know it is not a perfect system but all efforts are made to keep it fair to the wrestlers that weigh in.

 

I had to make a call on this one.

 

USA wrestling has made modifications in the last few years concerning weigh-in times and duration. But, no national level events that are managed and run by USA wrestling allow faxed weigh-ins or weigh-in from other events. Those that do are privately run as Indy Nationals are. The USA office informed me that while they do not approve of this practice, they will not use any authority to keep privately run events from doing it. They also have no formal documentation allowing it. This is fact  

 

This tournament never used to allow this. I remember the year it began. As I recall it was started when Indy was held on the same weekend as Liberty Nationals(2009-10 season or 2008-09). There are no major national events on the same weekend anymore that I can find witch makes this a number game.

 

Please understand! I am not trying to bash this event. The event has always been well run and well managed with great awards. They have also had one of the more generous weigh-in windows. But anything other than following a standard outline as used by all other national level events sheds a bad light on what otherwise is a very good event.

 

Look at what the IHSWCA has done with Middle School State weigh-ins, and the tournament runs very well with big numbers. I don't think there could be a more fair way to discourage weight cutting.

 

For me this is about standards and a fair playing field. You show up make weight within the time frame allotted along with everyone else or you?re out. That?s wrestling. This is just my opinion.

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

How can a parent or coach look their child in the eye when they allow blatant cheating? Those people are telling their kids it's ok to break the rules. I don't get it. All for a medal and a wall chart from a meaningless tournament.

 

I have had the opportunity to be around some of the greatest wrestlers this country has ever produced. I have traveled with them and had conversations with them about youth wrestling. What they remember most is the time they spent with their family and friends and not some $3 medal that is in a box in their attic, if not in the dumpster.

 

Tom Clark

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I have seen this problem as well but as for me I love satelite weigh-ins, I actually used to try and take my boys to these before they hit high school.  I hated to drive an hour to a meet weigh in by 8 and then wait around until 10:30 or 11 to wrestle that first match of the day. We ran a couple small local meets like 250 to 300 kids about 6 yrs ago, we did faxed weights from clubs only back then and I helped with pairings. We started our first match at 9am and finished around 2pm. Maybe things have changed or we were just lucky but I dont recall having these issues, I think its the only way to go. Heres my two cents accept the weights make the brackets then run all wrestlers acrossed the scale at skin checks cover the tenths and if the dont make weight they scratch, simple. My sons did local and  national events back in the day and we loved them all its a great time for all involved. I believe the local meets are the grass roots of this sport not all families can afford to do the national scene and lets face it most kids in the first couple years just arent ready for that level yet, there are exceptions of course. The fact that they are only local meets doesnt make them any less important to the sport or the young wrestlers. Most of these kids may never be good enough to compete at a large national but the lessons this great sport can teach can be learned at all skill levels thankfully. Im just glad we had the chance to share this sport with our sons at all levels, and now to see them wrestle the friends that they made along the way now in high school,well thats when it hits you, its about the fun they had and the freinds they made. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Maybe things have changed or we were just lucky but I dont recall having these issues, I think its the only way to go. Heres my two cents accept the weights make the brackets then run all wrestlers acrossed the scale at skin checks cover the tenths and if the dont make weight they scratch, simple.

 

I personally am not worried about the smaller tournaments.  They are great.  Fax/email weigh-ins are perfectly acceptable for them.  Trying to run all those kids across the scales when they get there is simply unrealistic unless we want a 2 hour wait at any nominally sized local tournament.  However, at the state and national level, I do think that on-site weigh-ins needs to take place for all involved.  However, I am also a firm believer that the weigh-ins should take place on the morning of the event.  Should the event last more than one day, which I believe USAW is working to stop, the weigh-in should take place each morning of the event.  The night before weigh-ins helps the weight cutters in the higher age groups and hinders the light weight little kids (I have seen peewees and bantams that weigh up to a pound over at night and up to a pound under in the morning, and the 5 lb change in class is huge to a little 40 or 45 lb kid).  I would love to see most of the weight cutting stopped except for obese kids that it can be done in a healthy way and I firmly believe that these night before weigh-ins at larger events have been kept only because local businesses like hotels and food joints are happy about the extra money and possibly make donations for the practice to remain.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

We wrestle both ISWA & MYWAY tournaments.  The solution to the honor system that MYWAY uses is a true satellite weigh-in the night prior to the event.  If there is a tournament within the Southwest region of the state you can weigh-in the night before the event at the actual tournament location or at one of two alternative weigh-in sites witin the same region.  Weigh-ins are generally from 6-8pm the night before the event.  They still allow weigh-ins the day of the tournament, however they end them an hour and a half before the start of the tournament, which encourages people to attend the satellite weigh-ins.  I also find it disheartening that a parent or coach of a youth wrestler would stoop to cheating to win a tournament at any level.  Too often parents fail to realize that wrestling is a great sport for developing lifeskills and although victory is the ultimate goal when you step on the mat, they are undermining the lifeskills component of the sport by lying about a child's weight, especially since wrestlers are typically aware of their own weight.     

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

We wrestle both ISWA & MYWAY tournaments.  The solution to the honor system that MYWAY uses is a true satellite weigh-in the night prior to the event.  If there is a tournament within the Southwest region of the state you can weigh-in the night before the event at the actual tournament location or at one of two alternative weigh-in sites witin the same region.  Weigh-ins are generally from 6-8pm the night before the event.  They still allow weigh-ins the day of the tournament, however they end them an hour and a half before the start of the tournament, which encourages people to attend the satellite weigh-ins.  I also find it disheartening that a parent or coach of a youth wrestler would stoop to cheating to win a tournament at any level.  Too often parents fail to realize that wrestling is a great sport for developing lifeskills and although victory is the ultimate goal when you step on the mat, they are undermining the lifeskills component of the sport by lying about a child's weight, especially since wrestlers are typically aware of their own weight.       

 

That has been used in the USAW tournaments as well.  Franklin Ironman, is just one that tops my mind.  Personally I cannot stand the way MYWAY has destroyed Michigan wrestling and had worked its way in through northern Indiana.  Back when I was a kid in Michigan (late 80s and early 90s), there were tons of tournaments every weekend until Mid-May, kind of like here in Southern Indiana.  Now, they have some local tournaments, very few except in or around Detroit area, and then there are the overly expensive MYWAY tournaments.  Down here in Southern IN, I can take my kids almost every weekend to a tournament within 1.5 hours drive for $10.  Of course, the only people that seem to really like MYWAY are those that don't see the use in learning more than 1 style of wrestling, those type of people that don't figure their kids will every be good enough to live the dream of going to the Olympics.  The type of people that think wrestling should be for just one season, and get rid of that extra 3 months out of the year that leads to the toughest tournament for all of our most likely to get a top scholarship kids - Junior Nationals.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

That has been used in the USAW tournaments as well.  Franklin Ironman, is just one that tops my mind.  Personally I cannot stand the way MYWAY has destroyed Michigan wrestling and had worked its way in through northern Indiana.  Back when I was a kid in Michigan (late 80s and early 90s), there were tons of tournaments every weekend until Mid-May, kind of like here in Southern Indiana.  Now, they have some local tournaments, very few except in or around Detroit area, and then there are the overly expensive MYWAY tournaments.  Down here in Southern IN, I can take my kids almost every weekend to a tournament within 1.5 hours drive for $10.  Of course, the only people that seem to really like MYWAY are those that don't see the use in learning more than 1 style of wrestling, those type of people that don't figure their kids will every be good enough to live the dream of going to the Olympics.  The type of people that think wrestling should be for just one season, and get rid of that extra 3 months out of the year that leads to the toughest tournament for all of our most likely to get a top scholarship kids - Junior Nationals.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I was not promoting MYWAY, but the method in which they run a tournament.  True satellite weigh-ins, split start times for various age groups, licensed officials, mat side pairings and punctual start times.  With the exception of the satellite weigh-ins these are all concepts used at ISWA state, but rarely if ever incorporated in tournaments in the northern part of Indiana.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I had an issue with this honor system last year.

 

The week before ISWA folkstyle state my son was wrestling Pee Wee 40 but weighed 36. He was paired up with a kid that looked pretty big for a 40. We asked how much he weighed, his coach said he weighed 47 on Thursday. It turned into a bit of an argument, regrettably.  Eventually the coach told me "We'll see what he weighs next week!".

 

The next week I looked for the kid's name on the brackets and didn't find it. I also looked on trackwrestling. I was curious what weight he was going to be wrestling. The kid must not have entered.

 

I know this was my son that was involved here but I would have done it for any of my wrestlers with that obvious of a difference. He practiced with plenty of bigger kids last year and still does, so it wasn't danger of being hurt that I was worried about.  But in a tournament it should be close to a fair match. This was not.

 

I am not opposed to the honor system if people are somewhat honest. I mean at least keep it within a couple of pounds. It does help tournaments get started on time.

 

Here is what I propose to fix it...

 

Keep the satellite, fax-in, email-in weigh-ins.  This way brackets can be done ahead of time. Still have a weigh-in to confirm weights.  Drop the tenths off of actual weight like they did at ISWA Elementary State Duals. For example 105.9 is a good weight for 105. If someone comes in overweight they would need to pay for a second entry or re-entry into the tournament to wrestle at the correct weight. That will keep it honest and would help pay for the trouble of re-doing a bracket.

 

What do you guys think of that?

 

To Add, to that, Coaches should weigh their wrestlers in on a weekly basis.....for each tournament.  I have spoken to many parents of wrestlers from different clubs and they have told me their children have been weighed in once.  Weekly weighins per club is a huge factor in getting this under control.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I had the experience of a kid that wrestled schoolboy 120 who wrestled a school tournament 4 days before, slid in at 125 because of the 2 lb. allowance, so was 127 for school tourney against Evansville Reitz, wrestled 120 in the ISWA tournament and no one said anything because he was from Mater Dei.

Was this the Reitz ISWA tourney you were talking about? If so, there was only one MD wrestler in the 120 Schoolboy division.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Sounds like whining to me.  Do you have proof of the kid's weight or are you just sure he was overweight because he beat your son?

 

Come now, this is a discussion area, not a place for picking fights.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Well if I had proof we'd have scales and weigh ins now wouldn't we genius, and their would be no need to even be having this conversation! I know he was 127 3 or 4 days before. Doesn't really matter, my son lost because he missed a few opportunities and it won't happen again. The kid really wasn't all that good anyway. 2 to 1 was a learning experience.

 

The EMD kid in question weighed 118 when he wrestled, and beat, Reitz's stud at 127.  EMD wrestlers frequently wrestle up a weightclass or two to get better competition.  How petty you are to question a kid's weight because he is a far superior wrestler than your child. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Move up yeah right. Then u obviously didn't make it to the Perry elementary meet.  It's fun to watch cause the ones that weight in for state are usually up a weight class or two.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Actually no, it was the ISWA tournament the weekend before, guess he pulled the same crap at Reitz huh!

No he didn't, he was at the 120 weight at both the Jasper and Reitz tournaments and was at weight at the Bloomington duals this weekend which was 120 with no allowance. I suggest you validate your accusations and sources before you start questioning the integrity of someone on a public message board Mr. Hoosierdad.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

for the record Indy Nationals has had and implemented this policy since the inception. however it is suppose to be weigh ins from an other national or high school sanctioned state finals event.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

for the record Indy Nationals has had and implemented this policy since the inception. however it is suppose to be weigh ins from an other national or high school sanctioned state finals event.

 

Although I don't agree with it having ANY fax/email weigh-ins, this does seem to make things better assuming it is actually checked into.  With the cost of the tournament, I would think things should be run right.  I know that there are people out there with lots of money to spare and can send their kids halfway across the country taking off school, work, etc... to enjoy in the events, but most of us are just trying to get by and $30 is a-lot!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

My only question about Indy Natls is why not let the kids wrestling in session #2 which starts at 1pm, weigh in on Sunday morning?  It wouldn't take much to hold a Sunday weigh in around 10 am during session 1.  It's a lot for me to drive my grandson 2 hours to the Saturday weigh in, 2 hours back home, then 2 hours to the tourney, then 2 more hours back home.  That's 8 hours in the car over 2 days, when with a minor change it could be just 4 hours in the car in 1 day.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

My only question about Indy Natls is why not let the kids wrestling in session #2 which starts at 1pm, weigh in on Sunday morning?  It wouldn't take much to hold a Sunday weigh in around 10 am during session 1.  It's a lot for me to drive my grandson 2 hours to the Saturday weigh in, 2 hours back home, then 2 hours to the tourney, then 2 more hours back home.  That's 8 hours in the car over 2 days, when with a minor change it could be just 4 hours in the car in 1 day.

 

I completely agree!  The only one making out on this deal is the hotels. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

My only question about Indy Natls is why not let the kids wrestling in session #2 which starts at 1pm, weigh in on Sunday morning?  It wouldn't take much to hold a Sunday weigh in around 10 am during session 1.  It's a lot for me to drive my grandson 2 hours to the Saturday weigh in, 2 hours back home, then 2 hours to the tourney, then 2 more hours back home.  That's 8 hours in the car over 2 days, when with a minor change it could be just 4 hours in the car in 1 day.

 

So you think they should weigh in at 10 then pair all the brackets and be ready to wrestle @ 1?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

So you think they should weigh in at 10 then pair all the brackets and be ready to wrestle @ 1?

 

When I wrestled, all the tournaments had weigh-ins between 7 & 8 and wrestling started between 9 & 10 typically at 9, but at poorer tournaments that accepted late people to weigh-in they were still started by 10:00.  Now, I will agree that this is a bigger event - or so it is supposed to be.  That being said, I would suggest an earlier weigh in time of between 8 & 9 and we could easily start wrestling by Session II.  At a Nationals, morning of Weigh-ins should be the norm.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

So you think they should weigh in at 10 then pair all the brackets and be ready to wrestle @ 1?

 

No, I do not.  Indy Natls charges a very high fee (something like $25) if you change weight classes from your online registration.  And I think that is a good thing!!!  There should very few alterations in brackets/paring because of this policy.  The whole tournament could be paired days before via trackwrestling, with only a few folks paying the fees to change weights.

 

So, there really is no reasonable obstacle to Indy Natls having a 10 am Sunday morning weigh in.  That is, unless the wrestling community just wants to donate to local hotels. :)

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

for the record Indy Nationals has had and implemented this policy since the inception. however it is suppose to be weigh ins from an other national or high school sanctioned state finals event.

That's not right. When it was held at Canceo Feild House (before 2006) there were no faxed weigh ins.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Every tournament should weigh the wrestlers in. Really the only way to go if you ask me.  The honor system is flawed.

 

I somewhat agree! Every tourney should have weigh ins! The honor system isn't flawed, it's the lying coaches and parents that are flawed. Hate to say that because most are great about it, it's the few that give the honor system a bad rap. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Sign in to follow this  

×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

We have placed cookies on your device to help make this website better. You can adjust your cookie settings, otherwise we'll assume you're okay to continue.