jchas Posted June 8, 2011 Share Posted June 8, 2011 Lets take out what the rules say about how much a kid should cut and talk about weight cutting from just a strategic point or view. It is my opinion that to many wrestlers end up hurting themselves in the end by cutting to much weight. I personally think there is a big difference in cutting to a lower weight for one or to weeks. As compared to cutting for the entire state tournament. I call the first couple of weeks fools gold. You don't find out how your body reacts until you do it 3-4 weeks in a row. That is when you find out how your body does at that weight and for many wrestlers it is already to late. I am interested in where you guys think that line is? Does anyone have examples for kids who do very well that don't cut much at all and examples of kids who cut very hard that do or don't achieve expectations. If they are current wrestlers. You may want to leave out kids names. I am only interested in the example not the wrestlers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tcooper1454 Posted June 9, 2011 Share Posted June 9, 2011 Well Trey Reese and Logan Cooper wrestled in the finals this year and I am pretty sure they didn't have to lose a pound this year to do it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1oldwrestler Posted June 9, 2011 Share Posted June 9, 2011 Knew of a kid that cut 18 lbs to get to a weight and he actually won semistate and was undefeated heading into Fri at Conseco and he lost. Got handled easily. He was dying by season's end but he probably wouldn't have made it to state at his realistic weight. The following year he wrestled 3 weight classes up, made it to the ticket round at SS but didn't advance. IMO he would have better served wrestling a more natural weight the year before so he could have gotten used to wrestling bigger kids. Probably would have made it to state. Keep in mind that this all took place with the "stringent weight loss program" as put forth by the IHSAA in place. What is an OK cut? I believe kids can cut 10 lbs pretty easily without harm to their metabolisms. 12 lbs at the most. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jchas Posted June 9, 2011 Author Share Posted June 9, 2011 That is a very good example. 18 pounds seems like to much but not cutting at all doesn't seem to work either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jchas Posted June 9, 2011 Author Share Posted June 9, 2011 Well Trey Reese and Logan Cooper wrestled in the finals this year and I am pretty sure they didn't have to lose a pound this year to do it. That is another factor. If you are cutting from a upper or a upper middle weight are you cutting to a tougher weight class. There seems to be a different set of criteria for lower, Middle and upper classes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charger.dad Posted June 9, 2011 Share Posted June 9, 2011 Knew of a kid that cut 18 lbs to get to a weight and he actually won semistate and was undefeated heading into Fri at Conseco and he lost. Got handled easily. He was dying by season's end but he probably wouldn't have made it to state at his realistic weight. The following year he wrestled 3 weight classes up, made it to the ticket round at SS but didn't advance. IMO he would have better served wrestling a more natural weight the year before so he could have gotten used to wrestling bigger kids. Probably would have made it to state. Keep in mind that this all took place with the "stringent weight loss program" as put forth by the IHSAA in place. What is an OK cut? I believe kids can cut 10 lbs pretty easily without harm to their metabolisms. 12 lbs at the most. To say 10-12 pounds at the most is not really correct. It all depends on where you are at when you start. From what I see, most athletes these days are alot leaner than what we were back in the day. The builds some of these kids have is incredible - lean and muscular. My sons both are very lean naturally and are within 5 lbs of being what I would consider "ripped" and healthy. For them to lose any more would not be healthy. But on the other side of the coin, I know friends of theirs that coud easily cut 20 pounds or more and still not be really lean....but they would be alot healthier! This is a subject that coaches and parents should become more educated on so they can lead these young men and women down the right path. I see way to many kids that starve themselves all season just to make that next lowest weight class. Not only do they not enjoy themslves during this time, they are risking their health. And in the wrestling community, education has to start at home and from their coach. The coach needs to approach this with the wrestlers health in mind, not filling all the weight clsses with the best guys, regardless of what they have to do to get there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CoachGans Posted June 14, 2011 Share Posted June 14, 2011 When the kids use practice to cut weight is when it crosses the line. Throwing on three layers of sweats and drilling to lose weight, not get better, is when it becomes too much. I know when I was competing at the high school level - I talked to my coach, discussed what weight would be best for the team and myself, then started dieting and running about two months before the season to get my weight under control. It made that first weigh-in of the season so much easier. By the time the two lbs. allowance came into play, I was naturally that weight. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edb41 Posted June 14, 2011 Share Posted June 14, 2011 When the kids use practice to cut weight is when it crosses the line. Throwing on three layers of sweats and drilling to lose weight, not get better, is when it becomes too much. I know when I was competing at the high school level - I talked to my coach, discussed what weight would be best for the team and myself, then started dieting and running about two months before the season to get my weight under control. It made that first weigh-in of the season so much easier. By the time the two lbs. allowance came into play, I was naturally that weight. If that's the case 90% of the wrestlers in 100% of the rooms are cutting too much weight. (not that they all use plastics) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jchas Posted June 14, 2011 Author Share Posted June 14, 2011 If that's the case 90% of the wrestlers in 100% of the rooms are cutting too much weight. (not that they all use plastics) I am not sure that is not the point of this discussion. Are to many kids cutting to much weight. If you are pudgy we all know that you could stand to lose weight. On the other hand how many meals should you be skipping. How many pounds are reasonable to be sweating off the day of or the day before. These are all questions we should be asking. Again I don't want this to be a right or wrong discussion. Just simply performance based answers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fwrestler Posted June 14, 2011 Share Posted June 14, 2011 When the kids use practice to cut weight is when it crosses the line. Throwing on three layers of sweats and drilling to lose weight, not get better, is when it becomes too much. I know when I was competing at the high school level - I talked to my coach, discussed what weight would be best for the team and myself, then started dieting and running about two months before the season to get my weight under control. It made that first weigh-in of the season so much easier. By the time the two lbs. allowance came into play, I was naturally that weight. So exercising in practice to lose weight is the wrong thing to be doing...? I know I lost around 2 lbs during a two hour practice without sweats or plastics while I was cutting weight during the season. What's the difference between dieting and working the weight off in practice or running, like you did? I feel like drilling and wrestling is the best and most natural way of losing weight, and you get the added bonus of improving your wrestling skills. No matter what your intentions are, drilling moves will help your wrestling. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jchas Posted June 16, 2011 Author Share Posted June 16, 2011 Here is a very interesting article on weight cutting. It brings up another question for me. Are the guys able to preform their best In the classroom if they are cutting 2 much? It looks like 4% is the line in the sand. That would be 4.8 lbs on 120 lbs wrestler. http://journals.lww.com/nsca-jscr/Fulltext/2011/04000/Effects_of_Self_Selected_Mass_Loss_on_Performance.18.aspx Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unknown Caller Posted June 17, 2011 Share Posted June 17, 2011 sophomore and junior year i would cut at least 12-14 pounds the last two days till the tourney but come round semi state my mind played tricks with me, i looked at it like hey if i win i go to state if i lose i get to eat. its very mentally stressful Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jchas Posted June 17, 2011 Author Share Posted June 17, 2011 sophomore and junior year i would cut at least 12-14 pounds the last two days till the tourney but come round semi state my mind played tricks with me, i looked at it like hey if i win i go to state if i lose i get to eat. its very mentally stressful What did you do your senior year and how did it work out? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1oldwrestler Posted June 17, 2011 Share Posted June 17, 2011 To say 10-12 pounds at the most is not really correct. It all depends on where you are at when you start. From what I see, most athletes these days are alot leaner than what we were back in the day. The builds some of these kids have is incredible - lean and muscular. My sons both are very lean naturally and are within 5 lbs of being what I would consider "ripped" and healthy. For them to lose any more would not be healthy. But on the other side of the coin, I know friends of theirs that coud easily cut 20 pounds or more and still not be really lean....but they would be alot healthier! This is a subject that coaches and parents should become more educated on so they can lead these young men and women down the right path. I see way to many kids that starve themselves all season just to make that next lowest weight class. Not only do they not enjoy themslves during this time, they are risking their health. And in the wrestling community, education has to start at home and from their coach. The coach needs to approach this with the wrestlers health in mind, not filling all the weight clsses with the best guys, regardless of what they have to do to get there. I guess I state 10 lbs as a typically doable weight because I use my son as an example. He's pretty thin to begin with and during his h.s. career he only wrestled, didn't play any other sports. He worked out pretty hard in the off season (camps/weights/tourneys/etc) but when he got up into the wrestling room in October, he wasn't in "wrestling" condition. What I mean by that is h.s. season wrestling condition. Let's say his weight before any h.s. training took place place was 122 (his walking around weight). If he ate what he wanted but "busted it" for the two hour practices after school, he'd lose about 5 pounds naturally over a 4 week period. Therefore, his new "natural weight" was 117. Trimming 5 lbs from there (about 4.5% of his weight) really wasn't that difficult for him. So, I would argue that 10 p0unds is an OK weight (in general) for most kids to lose. All situations are different. If some kid comes into the wrestling room after football season, then a 10 pound cut might be more difficult. In general, however, I stick to my guns and say a 10 pound cut isn't too much for just about any kid. Consider how disadvantaged my son would have been had he not trimmed that last 5 pounds. A 117 pound kid wrestling 119! He would have been taking on kids whose walking around weight before the season started would have been 130 at least. Bravo for your kids being within 5 pounds of being "ripped." Maybe they came into the wrestling room already in "season" condition before the seaon practices even started. Most kids either aren't as hard working or fortunate as your boys. Do the math and my son lost 8% of his before the season body weight which is, I'm sure, beyond the bounds of the weight program put forth by the IHSAA. That's why I think the weight program has some b.s. associated with it. Too many (most) kids get around it (my son included) but if a kid like my son didn't lose that last 5 pounds he would have been destroyed at a weight closer to his natural weight by kids that way over abused the system. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whoami?32 Posted June 17, 2011 Share Posted June 17, 2011 cutting weight to a lower weight like 103 is much more harder because a little guy has less body fat.....a bigger guy could lose more weight naturally because of more body fat!! i went through it last year and it was tough! its toughfor any wrestler but more so for the smaller weights! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MattM Posted June 17, 2011 Share Posted June 17, 2011 It not so much about how much weight is lost, as it is how the weight is lost and over how long of time shoud it take. As HWT who for some readonpacks on weight over the summer and during football season will shead a ton of weight and his body fat % will change at a faster rate than a lightweight who is naturally skinny, eats decently healthy, andesd active override same time period. Thus for most wrestlers it may not be about the weight cutting numbers as much as how it's accomplished. If you are correctly eating during the preseason and season that in most cases regular weight cutting to make your ideal weigh class (as body fat would indicate) will not be an issue. Obviously it will take a person with more body fat longer to get to their optimal weight but that just means starting the process early and continuing it ar a more rigerous level If the end goal is important then the process is worth doing unfortunately too many people want to cut corners to make those end goals faster and bt using less long term control of their habits. That is the much larger issue under the old system and still one the current weight management program doesn't have an answer for. Tooany wrestlers are continuing to eating improper foods (sometimes in large quantities) and then restricting food and liquid from there body later on during the week to make up for it. Heck many times even replenishment items after weigh in are not helpful and sometimes hindering. They are still within their weekly weight lose limits yet this is far from the best way of maintaining or losing weight. In many cases these wrestlers have plenty of extra body fat and are not near their minimum weight class, yet they are still crash dieting. Why is this? It's not because they have tried everything and just can't get the last few pounds off. It's because they feel like taking the easy road to the results they want thinking that will work. This is a similar problem to when wrestlers dont want to work on technique and then as soon as they feel outclasses rely on the one big "Whammy" move that worked well in middle school. The move wasn't done because it was perfect timing or because all other options were exhausted. It was done put of despitation because they thought it was there only chance to win since they didn't know enough technique to compete. Likewise, these crash diets are done out of desperation because the wrestler didn't want to take advantage of other options for making weight. Health wise it is bad since you are consuming large amounts ofunhealthy foods, as well as, deprivation it of nutrition afterward to make up the difference. This large fluctuation in eating habits not only messes with your body during a time of development, not to mention athletic activity. This leads to more physical and mental stress, muscle growth issues, sleep problems, irritability, and/or other short and long term health issues. It also is bad for your sports preformance. By not building up of essential suppliments early in the week and then drain many that were already stored up in your system later in the week you are essentially running on a reserve tank. While this may carry you through to a win in one good match the effects wi show in your performance and your post match actions. It will also carry on with you through most of the day. Meaning even if you try to replenish your body afterward any additional matches you have will show residual effects from the actions you took during the earlier part of the week. Psychologically wrestlers do this because they think the drain won't effect them. The idea they did it before and still won is enough to try it again. Or they don't have the self control to eat certain food while avoiding others. Yet, the result of this is a crash diet which everyone hates later in the week. This should be resolved by providing a better nutrition education to wrestlers and getting a parent and peer support system for these efforts Or they feel the weight cut is essential tigons them a size advantage. Yet you are the same weight as your opponent and your muscle depletion from losing weight makes up for the strength advantage you would have had. Sometimes the only reason these theories even work out for wrestlers is because there opponent was dumb enough to follow similar habits causing them to also have a disadvantage. Thus falsely giving the winner the feeling that this method was worth doing. Thus, in most cases during the preseason and season a regular structured diet, the skipping of major gorging episodes, and a regular exercise routine will be enough to get an athlete to his optimal performance weight while still retaining the stamina and strength needed to preform well throughout a day of wrestling. Anything else is just playing roulette with your health, preformance on the mat, and your win/lose record. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1oldwrestler Posted June 18, 2011 Share Posted June 18, 2011 The only way to force kids to wrestle near their natural weight is mat side weigh ins which I think would be awesome. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MattM Posted June 18, 2011 Share Posted June 18, 2011 The only way to force kids to wrestle near their natural weight is mat side weigh ins which I think would be awesome. Kids would still cut in the way I describe above if we had matside weigh-in's. It' would still be about maintaining your weight in a healthy way and that is something most teenage kids do not know much about and haven't developed the the patience to do correctly. It's going to take more athlete training, parent education, and some support from peers to improve this aspect of the sport. Though wrestling that close to weigh-ins may help show a percentage of them that taking this unhealthy route has an even greater effect on their wrestling. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1oldwrestler Posted June 18, 2011 Share Posted June 18, 2011 Kids would still cut in the way I describe above if we had matside weigh-in's. It' would still be about maintaining your weight in a healthy way and that is something most teenage kids do not know much about and haven't developed the the patience to do correctly. It's going to take more athlete training, parent education, and some support from peers to improve this aspect of the sport. Though wrestling that close to weigh-ins may help show a percentage of them that taking this unhealthy route has an even greater effect on their wrestling. Kids that cut a lot of weight would get killed if they didn't have a a couple of hours to stuff their faces after weigh in. I don't disagree with anything you are espousing re weight loss but it's too ingrained in the culture of wrestling to do anything but continue on the course of weight loss we see today. It would take decades to change the culture we are in and there isn't enough buy in from the wrestling community as a whole to do what you are recommending. It would take something as dramatic as mat side weigh ins to change the culture. I used to joke that the NHL could get rid of fighting altogether if the refs carried stun guns. All it would take would be one episode of watching two skaters on the ice convulsing after getting nailed by a stun gun for there never to be another fight in the NHL ever again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jchas Posted June 20, 2011 Author Share Posted June 20, 2011 Kids that cut a lot of weight would get killed if they didn't have a a couple of hours to stuff their faces after weigh in. I don't disagree with anything you are espousing re weight loss but it's too ingrained in the culture of wrestling to do anything but continue on the course of weight loss we see today. It would take decades to change the culture we are in and there isn't enough buy in from the wrestling community as a whole to do what you are recommending. It would take something as dramatic as mat side weigh ins to change the culture. I used to joke that the NHL could get rid of fighting altogether if the refs carried stun guns. All it would take would be one episode of watching two skaters on the ice convulsing after getting nailed by a stun gun for there never to be another fight in the NHL ever again. I don't necessarily agree that it would take a decade to make a change. All it would take is one HS program to implement a good diet and nutrition program and then that program to have success. Nothing created change like success. Here is hoping for the team and coach who takes this on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charger.dad Posted June 20, 2011 Share Posted June 20, 2011 The only way to force kids to wrestle near their natural weight is mat side weigh ins which I think would be awesome. this would surely put a damper on the way most kids do it these days......no water, no food, just go out and wrestle......and the result in alot of cases would be no energy......it would be very interesting to say the least..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
randalllynch Posted June 20, 2011 Share Posted June 20, 2011 I just don't see how a school program can control weight loss other than by enforcing the rules and what the kids can wear to practice in. Diet and other weigh loss methods come back to the parents and the individual wrestlers, unless the kids are moving in with the coach during the season. I played the yoyo game in high school, 134 to 119 every week, and it did take all the enjoyment out of my senior year, and I was so burned out by regional I sadly didn't care if I won or lost. But my coaches had nothing to do with it, and my parents didn't understand the sport enough to stop me. While I don't necessarily agree with the number, if the 1.5% is enforced during the practice week then the "yoyo" methodology would not even be a player. I now have a son who wrestles and I manage my sons weight loss and provide him a diet and the other tools (stationary bike, treadmill, running shoes) to facilitate losing weight if that is what he feels he needs to do. But I don't lock him from the refrigerator either, he has to have the will power and fortitude to do it, if he wants to eat and still make weight I explain to him the additional exercise he will need to do (calories in vs calories used). No short cuts, no saunas, no plastic suites, no water loss to make weight, we have a hot tub but he is not allowed to use it except to alleviate soreness and only for 15 minutes. I have a set of calipers and I measure his body fat, 7% is the rule, so 7% is what we go by. We don't even talk about pounds until the days just prior to getting on the scales. He grew 5 inches this year and it definitely had an affect on his weight, but he stayed around 7% and went up 2 weight classes (much to his dismay and many arguments from him about wanting to stay in the lower class). Not saying this is for everyone, but I wish I would have done it this way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jchas Posted June 20, 2011 Author Share Posted June 20, 2011 I just don't see how a school program can control weight loss other than by enforcing the rules and what the kids can wear to practice in. Diet and other weigh loss methods come back to the parents and the individual wrestlers, unless the kids are moving in with the coach during the season. I have to disagree with this point. Coach do you some responsibility when it comes to extreme weight cutting. There is no way a good coach does not know when a kid is cutting a great deal of weight. It is also part of his responsibility to guide his wrestlers on where a health weight is for each of his wrestlers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
randalllynch Posted June 21, 2011 Share Posted June 21, 2011 I agree on the a point you make a coach can "GUIDE" the athlete and enforce the rules. I took it as a given that coaches are already working with any wrestler who has decided to go down in weight on nutrition and the minimum weight the athlete could be (according to the IHSAA). I do know the weight the kids I coach are trying to get to, especially during the school season, I talk to the parents and the wrestler but if they are meeting the confines of the rules all I can really do is watch to make sure the wrestler is safe when they are under my charge. One thing I would like to add to this is that I believe extreme weight loss is rarer now than ever. It happens but not like 30 years ago, kids are physically stronger and better wrestlers now so there is not as much of an advantage as there used to be. It is the lack of understanding the affects of weight loss on performance and the toll it takes on the mental part of the game that I believe is a bigger issue (thus losing kids to the sport all together). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jimtown 138 Posted June 21, 2011 Share Posted June 21, 2011 I agree on the a point you make a coach can "GUIDE" the athlete and enforce the rules. I took it as a given that coaches are already working with any wrestler who has decided to go down in weight on nutrition and the minimum weight the athlete could be (according to the IHSAA). I do know the weight the kids I coach are trying to get to, especially during the school season, I talk to the parents and the wrestler but if they are meeting the confines of the rules all I can really do is watch to make sure the wrestler is safe when they are under my charge. One thing I would like to add to this is that I believe extreme weight loss is rarer now than ever. It happens but not like 30 years ago, kids are physically stronger and better wrestlers now so there is not as much of an advantage as there used to be. It is the lack of understanding the affects of weight loss on performance and the toll it takes on the mental part of the game that I believe is a bigger issue (thus losing kids to the sport all together). Oh, how I miss the vinyl suits, spitting, exlax, hot whirlpools, purging, running, and starving... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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