GrecoCoach Posted April 29, 2011 Share Posted April 29, 2011 Is there a transition plan/timetable to make this an ideal, all in tournament? I'd say it depends on how well an unofficial (at least according to the IHSAA) championship is received by not just the top teams, but also the interest from the mid-level teams wanting to get to the point of being invited on a regular basis. Then it could transition into more of a series for any teams that want to be part of it - teams would need to declare their intent prior to the start of the season. If that goes well and the lower-level teams become more and more interested and involved, then it can easily be transitioned into a full all-in tournament. I have no idea what kind of time frame it could take, but it will all be driven by teams and coaches showing that they want to be a part of it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickS Posted April 29, 2011 Share Posted April 29, 2011 I would hate this idea. What happens if you have a stud that might have been a Semi-State Qualifier or State Qualifier, but couldn't crack the lineup the previous year? Probably a small percentage of guys How about a team that graduates a lot of seniors, but has really good underclassmen? I would much rather have the Genius Rankings or some other formula decide. At least then you would be using the current seasons results. I'm not sure how well-received a BCS-type formula, that someone cooked up in the seat of their own house, would be in the coaches' community. Furthermore, using current season results would mean invitees wouldn't have much time to prepare. The season practically starts on thanksgiving week right? This tournament would take place in the middle of January. That's just 2 months at that point. Factor in that you have to still wrestle some matches to find how who's going to be invited. You got to think that takes at least a month of wrestling to plug in some data. Now you have just 1 month for invitees to prepare. Then you have to start filling the tournament, which may take time. What if they have something scheduled that week? How reliable would be a 1 month of data be in determining teams? Using returning state tournament results is the most reasonable way, in my mind. You'll literally know who to invite the day after state finals. That gives you 11 months to plan and fill the tournament. I know that this could hurt senior-laden teams, but time to prepare is extremely important. Something in-season results couldn't possibly do. GrecoCoach- Maybe we could have 3 classes of tournaments. I only suggest starting with 16 teams becuse it's the first year. Maybe we could have 3 classes, but say you have a really good 2A or 1A team (Mater Dei). They could be invited to wrestle in the 3A tournament? Just throwing that out there because I think the fans (and I'm sure the coaches too) want the best teams to face off, regardless of their size. Anyway, this is a minor issue that can be worked out fairly easily. But the format should be so that every team benefits from attending, not just the winning teams. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KarlHungus Posted April 29, 2011 Share Posted April 29, 2011 I'm not sure how well-received a BCS-type formula, that someone cooked up in the seat of their own house, would be in the coaches' community. Furthermore, using current season results would mean invitees wouldn't have much time to prepare. The season practically starts on thanksgiving week right? This tournament would take place in the middle of January. That's just 2 months at that point. Factor in that you have to still wrestle some matches to find how who's going to be invited. You got to think that takes at least a month of wrestling to plug in some data. Now you have just 1 month for invitees to prepare. Then you have to start filling the tournament, which may take time. What if they have something scheduled that week? How reliable would be a 1 month of data be in determining teams? Using returning state tournament results is the most reasonable way, in my mind. You'll literally know who to invite the day after state finals. That gives you 11 months to plan and fill the tournament. I know that this could hurt senior-laden teams, but time to prepare is extremely important. Something in-season results couldn't possibly do. Playing devil's advocate: What happens the first time a non invited team beats an invited team in a dual during the season? It would be hard to call someone a state champ if they were beat by a team not allowed to compete. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cale Hoover Posted April 29, 2011 Share Posted April 29, 2011 Would people consider the winner of this tournament the state champion? I would think most would still look to the tournament sponsered by the IHSAA. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrecoCoach Posted April 29, 2011 Share Posted April 29, 2011 Playing devil's advocate: What happens the first time a non invited team beats an invited team in a dual during the season? It would be hard to call someone a state champ if they were beat by a team not allowed to compete. They wouldn't be called the "state champ" because IHSAA bylaws forbid that. They'd be the Coaches Association Champs. No format is going to be perfect. We either accept that there will be little problems that we have to live with or just scrap the whole idea. Personally, I think this can be an event that will draw a lot of interest and discussion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smooth34 Posted April 29, 2011 Share Posted April 29, 2011 Using returning state tournament results is the most reasonable way, in my mind. You'll literally know who to invite the day after state finals. That gives you 11 months to plan and fill the tournament. I know that this could hurt senior-laden teams, but time to prepare is extremely important. Something in-season results couldn't possibly do. How does it make sense to use information from a previous season? Kids graduate, kids improve, kids move in, etc. That's like saying the BCS should only factor in your success from last season and how many players you have returning. It doesn't matter if you are good this season or not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcochran Posted April 29, 2011 Share Posted April 29, 2011 I don't think we need to reinvent the wheel. I think we can look at how other states set up their tournaments. I know that North Carolina's team state format uses conference results to determine the teams that are in the tournament. The conference I coached in would get two teams and often would get an at-large bid. Their set up had 3 classes with I believe 32 team brackets that were seeded (16 in the west and 16 in the east). These teams would have duals/super duals during the week, much like our current team regionals, and then culminate with a final four Saturday. Conferences may have to move their tournaments up a week or two. But, from my experience, they system seemed to be effective. I apologize if I'm in error on some of the details. It has been several years since I coached in NC. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MattM Posted April 29, 2011 Share Posted April 29, 2011 I know that North Carolina's team state format uses conference results to determine the teams that are in the tournament. If we went the Conference route I wouldn't mind seeing it be based on Conference Dual match standing (winner of each and a few at large bids) than on a individual tournament result. That would make it more of a team event than what we have currently. A benifit would be we wouldn't have to move the conference tournaments to make this happen. The brawback being teams would need to fit in matches against their conference opponents earlier in the season. Also their would be the factor of conferences having teams from more that one class if we went to a multi-class system for the team event. I would hope if the ISWCA is serious about doing the event that they will do a study on how other state dual events are ran. Plus find out any issue to look out for along the way based on running that system. I think studying how other states have developed, especially those that have risen quickly in talent over the last 10 years, is a great way to see what options we should consider taking with our entire state program. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickS Posted April 29, 2011 Share Posted April 29, 2011 How does it make sense to use information from a previous season? Kids graduate, kids improve, kids move in, etc. That's like saying the BCS should only factor in your success from last season and how many players you have returning. It doesn't matter if you are good this season or not. Please reread my post with regards to using returning state points vs. using in-season results. After doing so, if you still feel that in-season results is more feasible then, well.... good luck with that. ;D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KarlHungus Posted April 29, 2011 Share Posted April 29, 2011 Would people consider the winner of this tournament the state champion? I would think most would still look to the tournament sponsered by the IHSAA. I must have misread the intent of this tournament. I assumed the intent was to find the best dual team in the state and regardless of what the IHSAA would say, we would know who the "state champ" team is. If most would still look at the individual tournament scoring for who the state champ team is, I am not sure how popular this event will ever be. What incentive would Perry Meridian have to get out of the Bellmont Duals if the Association tournament is just another tournament and may not even have the best teams there. Especially if they can't even call themselves state champs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cale Hoover Posted April 29, 2011 Share Posted April 29, 2011 I know the IHSWCA would certainly like to get all of the best teams involved, but this is not a lock to happen. Also, teams could certainly claim to be the state champs, however, the IHSAA record book would say otherwise. I believe this event could grow into something tremendous, however it will be depend on the best teams all being willing to participate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickS Posted April 29, 2011 Share Posted April 29, 2011 I must have misread the intent of this tournament. I assumed the intent was to find the best dual team in the state and regardless of what the IHSAA would say, we would know who the "state champ" team is. If most would still look at the individual tournament scoring for who the state champ team is, I am not sure how popular this event will ever be. What incentive would Perry Meridian have to get out of the Bellmont Duals if the Association tournament is just another tournament and may not even have the best teams there. Especially if they can't even call themselves state champs. In Ohio, their coaches' association runs their own dual state tournament during the season. I'm willing to bet that Ed's and Graham consider it to be a great and prestigous honor, despite the "official" state champion being determined later in the year by the OHSAA. From what I've read online, the OHSAA is planing on having a team state tournament within the next couple of years. I'm sure the success of the coaches' version has been a big influence on that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
timbo Posted April 30, 2011 Share Posted April 30, 2011 Ohio has used previous results from the past year the past 7-8 years. They pull 8 teams (based on accomplishments of returning wrestlers) and hold a dual meet tournament AT THE END OF jANUARY. mY UNDERSTANDIS THEY ARE ABORTING THAT AND INTRODUCING SOMETHING NEW THIS COMING YEAR.. oopS accidently hit the caps button---not shouting I promise:) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Short Jay Posted May 1, 2011 Share Posted May 1, 2011 This may have been answered already but what do you do with teams not affliated with a conference? I would suggest an all in 2 or 3 class team tournament. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smooth34 Posted May 1, 2011 Share Posted May 1, 2011 Please reread my post with regards to using returning state points vs. using in-season results. After doing so, if you still feel that in-season results is more feasible then, well.... good luck with that. ;D I guess we will have to agree to disagree. I would never vote for such as system, where you are rewarding teams from the previous years success. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boot Posted May 1, 2011 Share Posted May 1, 2011 This may have been answered already but what do you do with teams not affliated with a conference? I would suggest an all in 2 or 3 class team tournament. That's a good point, how many teams aren't in a conference? What happens if a conference has 3 or 4 top teams (I doubt that exists now, but may at some point)? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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