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Ideas for team state


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I will attempt to shed some light on this topic.  I would first like to establish some perspective by addressing a couple of key points:

 

1. The IHSWCA is a volunteer organization with a modest savings account.  This organization's purpose is to provide guidance and support to coaches and wrestling programs in Indiana.  The IHSWCA does attempt to work with the IHSAA, but ultimately, the IHSAA oversees all Indiana high school athletics and therefore has the final say-so (vote) when it comes to making decisions that impact our sport.

2. The IHSAA will hear no part of wrestlebacks or "classing" the post season tournament.  Whether you agree or disagree with this, that is just the way it is right now.  It is also that way for the other IHSAA individually labeled sports.

 

FACTS

A. Cale Hoover, JD Minch and myself recently met with Assistant Commissioner Robert Faulkens in Indianapolis to primarily discuss the post season team duals event.

B. Mr. Faulkens made it very clear that next season will be the last year for the Team Duals event as we know it.

C. Mr. Faulkens then eagerly offered that the IHSAA would allow (not have a problem with) the IHSWCA to manage a team duals event during the season (before sectionals).  He even went as far as to offer some ideas on what this event could look like in his opinion.

D. Next, I asked him 2 questions point blank.  First, would the IHSAA allow extra weigh-ins for teams to participate in such an "in season" event above and beyond their normally scheduled events.  Second, I asked him if it would rub the IHSAA wrong if we made it a "classed" team duals event.

E. He said it would be no problem to grant additional weigh-ins for such an event AND he said no, the IHSAA would not care if we hosted a "classed" team event.

 

OPINION

1. Although we will never please everyone, I actually see this arrangement as a great opportunity to have our cake and eat it too.  We get to separate our individual and team events which some say wear out our athletes in February.  We will have a chance to develop a truly "classed" team state event in which schools of all sizes can aspire and work toward being a true part of with a shot at true success.

2. Without a doubt there are many, many nuts and bolts to work out in planning this event.  No matter when it takes place during the season, someone's local tournament is going to be dislodged or at the very least impacted.

3. The IHSWCA officers have already had some great ideas presented to them.  Some have sketched out an "all in" event that would essentially include all teams in the state.  Others have suggested we start small and grow the event over time.  It should be remembered that to run a major state wide event would take massive man power and coordination.  And yes, we would indeed have to count on AD's and administrators across the state to host and support an "all in" event.  Most agree that this event would need to take place in a one week time period in order to have minimal impact on teams' schedules that are already in place.

4. It will no doubt take time to develop a successful team state duals event.  The IHSWCA will be meeting with a committee of coaches toward the end of May to begin putting together a plan which would be implemented during the 2012-13 season.

5. There is one other alternative - Not plan anything at all in the way of an IHSWCA team state duals event.

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Joe,

This is a minor detail but with the remaining 16 teams would it be bracketed as a #1 vs a #4 , similar to the individual state finals?  If its bracketed this way, then that allows for a better possibility of the top 4 teams meeting in the semifinals.  And it could make for some great discussion about wrestling and brackets.

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Thanks for the great breakdown coach. While I would personally still love to see us go classed like Ohio and Illinois are (maybe Michigan, but I'm not familiar with them), a classed IHSWCA team event would still be a good compromise. Are the thoughts to hold it the same weekend at 1 venue or split it up?

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E. He said it would be no problem to grant additional weigh-ins for such an event AND he said no, the IHSAA would not care if we hosted a "classed" team event.

 

This part does not bode well with me as the better teams will get a free pass to schedule more meets and the not so good teams.... well sorry you suck so who cares.

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AJ- I'm sure that that could be a possibility.  Although I would be even more in favor for seeding the top 8 and drawing in the rest for each bracket.

 

Karl- I'm not the person to answer that question for the IHSWCA, but I would think that would be the opinion of most coaches.  (At least I hope it would be)

 

 

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KarlHungus:  While I understand your point of "logical inconsistency", the fact still remains that the IHSAA classifies wrestling as an individual sport, if nothing more than for the post season tournament.  After all, the IHSAA doesn't tell Turkey Run HS that they can't wrestle Ben Davis during the regular wrestling season.  The IHSAA, in so many terms, is primarily concerned about the framework of the post season event when classifying sports.  I am not saying I agree with how they classify (and manage) individual sports, but that is just the way it is.  We can only control the "controllables" and we can't control the IHSAA.  We are attempting to work with them to the best of our ability and resources.

 

Boot: All ideas are on the table right now.  Again, remember that the IHSAA has a fully paid office staff and support of AD's and administrators around the state when they run their post season events.  The IHSWCA is comprised of 3 officers and currently, 12 regional reps from around the state of who none are paid for their efforts with the IHSWCA.  To paraphrase, I don't want to bite off more than we can chew.  I would love nothing more than an "all in" event for all to participate in, but we must be realistic in what we can accomplish in the event's infancy.

 

Y2: I guess I don't follow your thought process.  I think you are jumping to conclusions as there have been no decisions made yet as to what the format of the event will look like.  If a format is decided on that would "invite" teams into the tournament based on a formula, then I would congratulate those teams for their hard work and dedication rather than tell other teams that they suck.  If there is a team(s) that don't make the cut one year, then I would expect that team would buckle down and work harder to make the cut the next year.  From where I am sitting, I think we have an opportunity to equitably include more teams from across Indiana than has been done over the past 15 years.  In that spirit, I wouldn't say that just because a team didn't make the final 8 to Center Grove that they automatically sucked.  Just as has been the case over many decades (classed or non-classed), programs have peaks and valleys.  Just because a team has an off year, or isn't the best team in the state, I wouldn't think they are any less respected throughout the wrestling community.  I guess to sum my comments up I don't look at this as taking opportunities away from teams rather offering more opportunities to more teams.

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AJ- I'm sure that that could be a possibility.  Although I would be even more in favor for seeding the top 8 and drawing in the rest for each bracket.

 

Karl- I'm not the person to answer that question for the IHSWCA, but I would think that would be the opinion of most coaches.  (At least I hope it would be)

 

 

 

I agree with you Joe.  I guess then I would support a classed team tournament that stands the best chance of eventually being adopted by the IHSAA. 

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KarlHungus:  While I understand your point of "logical inconsistency", the fact still remains that the IHSAA classifies wrestling as an individual sport, if nothing more than for the post season tournament.  After all, the IHSAA doesn't tell Turkey Run HS that they can't wrestle Ben Davis during the regular wrestling season.  The IHSAA, in so many terms, is primarily concerned about the framework of the post season event when classifying sports.  I am not saying I agree with how they classify (and manage) individual sports, but that is just the way it is.  We can only control the "controllables" and we can't control the IHSAA.  We are attempting to work with them to the best of our ability and resources.

 

 

I guess I just don't get it then.  The IHSAA will support a mid season classed team tournament yet a post season classed tournament is somehow taboo.  Something is just not adding up in this equation.

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Boot: All ideas are on the table right now.  Again, remember that the IHSAA has a fully paid office staff and support of AD's and administrators around the state when they run their post season events.  The IHSWCA is comprised of 3 officers and currently, 12 regional reps from around the state of who none are paid for their efforts with the IHSWCA.  To paraphrase, I don't want to bite off more than we can chew.  I would love nothing more than an "all in" event for all to participate in, but we must be realistic in what we can accomplish in the event's infancy.

 

 

The IHSAA seems married to all in type tournaments.  I doubt that anything  other than an all in tournament would ever stand a chance of eventually being absorbed by the IHSAA. 

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The IHSAA seems married to all in type tournaments.  I doubt that anything  other than an all in tournament would ever stand a chance of eventually being absorbed by the IHSAA. 

 

What if those of us who support that idea volunteer and do what we can to help make sure this succeeds, you know, take that extra step beyond sitting at a keyboard and hypothesizing.

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I believe that in the past y2 put up an all in format that would take one week.  It would be four classes.  I can't recall what all his involved, but if you look at the math you could have four classes, 16 sectionals, for lack of a better term, per class. 4 to 5 teams per sectional.  You could wrestle that on a Tuesday. Each of the 16 winners would then wrestle in 8 regionals on a Thursday, final 8 would wrestle in the finals.  Pretty straight foward, and gets it done in a week.  It would take a lot of officials, sites,  and scheduling to get accomplished, it would be an awsome event though.

 

Coach W has some interesting ideas as well, I think that the more ideas that we get put out, the better the chances of finding the right fit for the event.  Y2 and Karl I've seen some good ideas on this kind of stuff from you guys in the past, what do you think could work?  What about genius rankings, or a bcs style formula?  Or inviting the top 16, or 32, or 6r per class instead of an all in?

 

What about number of classes? Personally I think three or four would give the right division classes, and representation.

 

What about locations, all of this will have to be taken into account by the IHSWCA, what ideas do you guys have, if we are positive and proactive about this it could be a really great thing for us.

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Karl, the IHSAA will support an IHSWCA run mid-season dual tourney because the IHSAA will not be paying for it or running it.  So they get the wrestling community off their back by allowing an exemption to the number of weigh-ins to allow us to host and run our own state dual tourney with no strings attached to the IHSAA.

 

Pat Wilkins

Portage High School

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First lets look at dates and begin from there....

 

You can't do it the last two weekends of the regular season due to conference tournaments.  No AD will let their school out of their conference tournament for some mythical championship. 

 

If you have it during the Christmas holiday you run into weakening/ruining long running holiday meets.  What if Mishawaka is invited?  Do they not go to their own tournament?  Heck the Al Smith could lose 10 teams some years!

 

The only good week/weekend is the first week in January.  Again you will run into speed bumps with the Bellmont duals and other events.  What if Bellmont is invited, do they shut down their meet that year to go or do they go but not participate in their own meet?

 

The ONLY way to get the IHSAA's attention that a classed team tournament is what the coaches want is if the IHSWCA can organize an all-in week long tournament that EVERYONE participates in and it brings in the $$$$$.  That would entail getting 311 schools not having meets during one week in the season.  Any invite only tournament will just be another super dual to the IHSAA. 

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Coach Gard  -- Right now the committee is simply the IHSWCA officers.  I will be selecting a few other coaches in the next week or so that have expressed an interest in being part of the committee. 

 

Mr. Wilkins - You make a very valid point.  I spoke to another coach at the spring clinic who thinks that the IHSAA would like to see us fall flat on our faces and fail at running an event of this nature. (i.e. - "I told you so")

 

Y2 - You are certainly on the right track with regard to the calendar and other important points to this project.

          -- Late November/early December --- most would say that is too early (some teams don't even have football players

                    out yet)

          -- Probably not a good idea to tackle the holiday break for the reasons you mentioned (plus some vacation during

                    this time)

        -- You are correct about conference week-ends (typically 2nd and 3rd week-ends of January)

          -- This basically leaves either the week before Christmas break or the week after Christmas break in general terms.

 

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I'm not completely sold on this but if it's the way of the future we may only have one way to make it work right.  Shift all the conference events earlier and give two weeks or so for the team event.  It will allow teams to be at full strength. It will complete things before the IHSAA event. And teams eliminated  week one or that weekend can still get in a multi-dual the last week or two of the season.

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The ONLY way to get the IHSAA's attention that a classed team tournament is what the coaches want is if the IHSWCA can organize an all-in week long tournament that EVERYONE participates in and it brings in the $$$$$.  That would entail getting 311 schools not having meets during one week in the season.  Any invite only tournament will just be another super dual to the IHSAA.  

 

This entails all coaches agreeing on a classed tournament and then agreeing to participate.. This could be a huge hurdle.   But you are correct, if the event makes money, and good money, the IHSAA will rethink their stance quickly!!!

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Karl, the IHSAA will support an IHSWCA run mid-season dual tourney because the IHSAA will not be paying for it or running it.  So they get the wrestling community off their back by allowing an exemption to the number of weigh-ins to allow us to host and run our own state dual tourney with no strings attached to the IHSAA.

 

Pat Wilkins

Portage High School

 

If it is a money driven issue and no philosophical issue with the IHSAA then we should seriously consider adopting the Wisconsin team tournament format.  Tspray posted information last fall showing that the team tournament brought in some substantial dough.  The IHSAA doesn't really do much at any level except state right now.  Member high schools run the pre state tournaments.

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This entails all coaches agreeing on a classes tournament and then agreeing to participate.. This could be a huge hurdle.  But you are correct, if the event makes money, and good money, the IHSAA will rethink their stance quickly!!!

 

And joining the IHSWCA presumably.  I dont think I've seen an answer to the quesiton if non IHSWCA affiliated schools would be allowed to participate.

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Why can't this event be an all-inclusive event carried out in phases through the season with no unfair scheduling exemptions?   For example:

 

Phase 1: Second weekend of December

A. Three classes

B. All schools invited

C. Each class has 16 super duals of 6 or 7 teams to determine Phase 1 Champions (pools if necessary with 7 teams, format would be easy).

D. Pre-determined hosts

E. Weigh-in rules and weight loss plans apply

 

(Thus, everyone is entered in the tournament, and everyone gets a pre-planned super dual on the same weekend.)

 

Phase 2: Mid-week between second and third weekends of December (immediately following Phase 1)

A. Round of 16 dual (one dual)

B. Everyone in state has dual scheduled for same day (and count toward scheduling number)

C. Champion of a given Phase 1 hosts champion of another given Phase 1

D. All other placements of same Phase 1 location host their counterparts from the opposite Phase 1 location (i.e. all schools from one location pre-plan to host an unknown opponent...opposite location pre-plans to visit unknown location...first place hosts first place, second hosts second, etc.)

E. Weigh-ins count toward state minimums and weight-loss plans must be honored as with any scheduled dual

 

Finals: First weekend of January

A. Final 8 from each of three classes meet at 3 different locations

B. 2 pools of 4 teams wrestle round-robin to determine championship match contenders

C. Championship matches wrestled at night for maximum attendance of wrestling community

D. All events scheduled for first weekend of January have pre-planned alternate host in the event host school qualifies for Duals Finals

E. No scheduling exemption given to qualifying schools (all schools STRONGLY urged to be a part of some event this weekend with the understanding that this weekend will be flexible for allowing teams to pull out of events for state finals; normal events recommended to be 6-team super duals with only a simple contingency plan needed in case of pull-outs)

F. Weigh-in count and weight loss plans still must be followed as normal

 

(Pool competition would allow Duals Finalists to still receive plenty of matches despite no scheduling exemption)

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I really think that hosting an all-in Team State Championship, in a week, is a nightmare to schedule, but..................how awesome would it be?!?  I think the kids and the fans would benefit largely from this...........what if we did it as a HUGE bracketed one and done tournament? (You could class if over course)  One level would be Tuesday, if you win the region, you move on to the next on Thursday, and then the Finals on Saturday.............just a random idea. It's an idea similar to the NCAA basketball tournament.

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I really think that hosting an all-in Team State Championship, in a week, is a nightmare to schedule, but..................how awesome would it be?!?  I think the kids and the fans would benefit largely from this...........what if we did it as a HUGE bracketed one and done tournament? (You could class if over course)  One level would be Tuesday, if you win the region, you move on to the next on Thursday, and then the Finals on Saturday.............just a random idea. It's an idea similar to the NCAA basketball tournament.

 

This one-week plan would only work if we did it in 5 classes.  Even then, we'd have to get 2 rounds done on Tuesday and 1 round done on Thursday to narrow it down to 8 teams per class for Saturday.  Also, this would be a scheduling nightmare that ADs won't want any part of.  Just imagine being an AD and finding out about midnight on Tuesday that they need to schedule a bus for Thursday and possibly the same situation for a bus on Saturday.

 

The only way to have a chance to get the ADs on board with this event is to make it something that is known before the season starts.  Ohio's invite plan based on the previous year's results of returning wrestlers makes that possible.  It's not perfect, but it would be the most realistic way to get support from the ADs.

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You could do it with 4 classes also

 

4 classes with A- 78 teams AA-78 teamd AAA- 77 teams AAAA 77 teams

 

16 sectionals(each class) with 4-6 teams in each

Three rounds to determine each sectional champion

 

4 regionals(each class) with four sectional champions at each

Two rounds to determine regional champions

*Travel would be one of the biggest issues with the regionals in some areas, especially down south.

 

4 in each class advance to state on a Saturday.

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