Ideas for team state

[ENoblewrestling]

At the spring coaches clinic it was announced that things do not look good for the team dual tournament being held by the IHSAA in the future, it looks as though next year will be the last year for it.

While obviously this is a bad thing, it does leave the possibility for something good to come of it.  It sounded as though it will be possible for the IHSWCA to set up their own event that will be similar in scope to the team tournament- finding a dual meet state champion.  While it sucks that it will not be IHSAA sanctioned, it is very possible that this event could be seen as just as legitimate a state title as the IHSAA one as it would be decided by a whole team not indivduals, and will involve our best teams

Another thing that could be great about this is that the tournament could be ran how the coaches want it to be.  It could be classed, all-in, invite only, however the coaches association chooses it to be.  It will obviously take ALOT of planning, cooperation, and work, from the IHSWCA, coaches, AD's, and the wrestling community, if it works out though it could really be great as we could have the best of both worlds, a classed team tournament, our great individual tournament, and we would have the top team in the individual tournament recognized as well.

So that leaves a lot of planning and ideas that will need to be sifted through.  I feel it makes for a great discussion topic on a board like this as we will now have an opportunity to use our ideas to run this event.  So what are your ideas, how would you run such an event?  What are some ways that we could make this work?  I have seen lots of ideas on here in the past, lets get some of them out there and see what comes of it.

[BizzyCoach]

I love the team tournament, and I would also love to see it classed (no matter who is in charge).  My biggest question is this:

 

Would coaches be required to be a member of the IHSWCA in order for their school to compete in an IHSWCA sponsored tournament? 

[MattM]

I'm not sure that school can participate in a school sanctioned event such as this sepertate from the state series to determine a team state champion without the IHSAA approval.  The IHSAA has the right to drop any school from the state tournament series that does not follow by their by-laws.  I would assume starting a seperate state tournament from there would be among those violations.    You would need to use some awful fancy wording and scratch the IHSAA's back just right and they may work it out on some level.  Anyone think its kind of strange they would suddenly throw a fit over the individual state coaches trophy, but now are OK with a separate coaches association ran team state tournament.  Seems like the real possibility they would actually approve would be after the end of the season "all-star" type contest or a USA Wrestling as a club vs club event.  But, I do agree if something could be created it would help to show the top teams for that season.

[ENoblewrestling]

It sounded as though they were allright with it, it would be ,more of a "state title"  I guess, but better than nothing.

[tskin]

My big question is when would you hold this event?

 

At the start of the season?  Most teams don't have their lineups finalized yet.

 

Over Christmas break?  Most teams are already involved in several big time Holiday events accross the state.

 

Right before Sectionals?  Most teams in the state have their conference tourneys the two weeks before Sectionals.

 

Will take alot of work to get everyones schedules to shake out.

 

I am saddened to see the IHSAA once again has turned their backs on what the majority of coaches in the state want.

 

 

[1oldwrestler]

With team state eliminated by t he IHSAA, wouldn't that make it easier to class individual because hasn't one of the sticking points been, can class one without classing both?  Or would the loss of the team portion just make it easier for the IHSAA to refuse to class individual because they would claim no individual sport gets classed and without the team portion, class supporters then don't have a leg to stand on. 

[ENoblewrestling]

With team state eliminated by t he IHSAA, wouldn't that make it easier to class individual because hasn't one of the sticking points been, can class one without classing both?  Or would the loss of the team portion just make it easier for the IHSAA to refuse to class individual because they would claim no individual sport gets classed and without the team portion, class supporters then don't have a leg to stand on. 

 

In the survey that was taken only around 30 percent of the coaches were for classing the individual side, I would think that would be a huge reason that it is not going to happen.  As far as the team side hopefully we can get a top event from the ihswca.  Look at the ihswca update thread, it gives more details on what's being discussed here.

[indyt]

I had the opportunity to see the 7 pages of results from principals and AD's and frankly I am appauled.  We really did wrestling a disservice by losing this tournament. We did it a greater disservice by putting it in the hands of some of the most ignorant people of our sport and with some of the most uncaring apathetic comments I have ever seen    Great job. Two years from now, team  winner have fun celebrating your state title with a handful of people in the hallway of Conseco as security is hurrying you out. Sounds fun and exciting.  Or you may be celebrating it with nobody as you might be the only one left from your program as you watch the fate of your teams title in a match where you don't even know the two kids wrestling and you are sitting in row x seat 35 watching. What other sport can the state title be won and nobody is there to celebrate. I don't think it's swimming or track because they don't have the Gestapo on the ground level who would never allow the state champs a picture on the Conseco floor. Oh but it would not matter anyway. The team pic will consist of 4 guys or 5.  "let's go back to the old system". They said many times.  Lets take it further.  Let's write on cave walls. Why not. It worked for cavemen. Or "these are individual sports so they should have state tournaments like track and swimming".  You are right. We should eliminate all duals-they will not better prepare your kid for the state tournament series. Well people there are twice as many people at the cathedral/ Perry dual as there is to watch the finals of the prestigious Marion County tournament. But as a coach, I'm stupid if I concentrate on duals. This will kill the sport to lose big duals but it will happen.  Here is another estute comment-"wrestling has too many wrestlebacks in it's state tournament series". Really!!??  There is so much more I could share or would like to say to the haters. Pick a side because the comment that sealed the deal for me was one that I just can't support. One principal or AD, who like some of you, was against team state went on to give his real opinion. "get rid of it ALL.

 

Not a good day for wrestling

 

 

Coach Tonte

[Y2CJ41]

So yet again the IHSWCA is going to spite the IHSAA and hold their own state tournament?  When will we learn?  I can tell you right now our AD will not like this and it would take a lot of convincing to have him change up our schedule so that we can be invited to this event every few years.

[indyt]

Y2, from what I understand, they were in favor or had no problem with an dual tournament that would be like a team invitational.  I am not sure if I would or would not be interested in this due to it not being the state tournament, having to change schedules and losing the best tournament this state has ever had.  I do want to ask you-what suggestion do you have?  Can you come up with some sort of plan that will recognize the best TEAM in indiana?  Again, I am not sure if I am a fan or not but I am respectful of the work that someone is getting ready to do to make a tournament that might bring to light the programs who put the most time in, build from the ground up and make their back up kid understand that his role may be more important than the role of your state champ.

[Y2CJ41]

The IHSWCA will be handing out a trophy and calling a team(s) state champions will not sit well with the IHSAA.  The IHSWCA will be once again minimalizing the IHSAA tournament and we will be in the same boat we are now.  If we don't learn from history we are bound to repeat it and we are doing that with this IHSWCA "State" Championship.  

 

My proposal would be for a two class system for the WHOLE tournament, plain and simple.  It would be good for these reasons.  The current team series is broken and keeping it without classes does no good for Indiana wrestling.  It might help Perry Meridian, Mishawaka, Lawrence North, etc, but it doesn't do anything for Central Noble, Paoli, Hammond, and about 270 other teams in the state.  

 

Teams all around the state build around making every kid important or at least should be doing that.  If you think the team series is how you make every kid feel they are important then you are mistaken because there are about 290 teams in the state that know their chances of making it to team state are slim to none, but still need to make everyone on the team feel important.  Not every coach starts their season out with a ra-ra speech on how they are going to win state this year and believe it or not, most schools never even mention the possibility of a state championship.

[Cale Hoover]

Joe,

 

Read my update and you will see the IHSAA has endorsed the coaches association to do this.  Mr. Cox and Mr. Faulkens have both given their consent and even encouraged it.  The situation is very different from the one you cite and the IHSAA has made it very clear on what we can and cannot do.

 

The only stipulation is the event must be held prior to the begining of the IHSAA state tournament series.

[GrecoCoach]

The IHSAA had absolutely no problem with the Coaches Trophy until it helped their own agenda.

 

They cannot hold a dual tournament "invite" against us as long as we don't officially call it a "state" tournament.  Call it the Coaches Association Invitational, the Joe Caprino Invite, or whatever so long as it doesn't include the word "state" then it won't be an IHSAA bylaw violation.  Actually, this truly would be the "coaches trophy" because it is a better description of what it takes to be a good coach.. a whole team.

 

This gives us all an opportunity to create something that is in the best interest of wrestling in Indiana without constantly being blocked and disregarded by the IHSAA principals and ADs.  It will be a lot of work to figure out the logistics and get ADs on board, but if we can set it up right it can become an honor to be invited and coaches will jump at the chance to be a part of it.  We won't be restricted to only inviting big schools and no restrictions on only 1 team per regional.  The possibilities look very promising if the coaches association can get the right people involved in setting it up.

[Y2CJ41]

The IHSAA had absolutely no problem with the Coaches Trophy until it helped their own agenda.

Do you not think we are falling into the same trap we already fell into?

 

From what people have said, the IHSAA did not like the team state series from the beginning and few years they would state their concerns to the IHSWCA.  They patiently awaited a year when the attendance was attrocious and then acted upon their plans of axing the team state series.  Maybe I am giving them more credit than they deserve, but the IHSAA warned us what was going to happen if EVERY team didn't take the team series seriously.

 

If the Joe Caprino Invite gets off the ground, the IHSAA will NEVER reinstate the team series because guess what they will say?  Yep, they will say "well don't you guys already have your CLASSED team state, why do you want another one?"  Hook, line and sinker we are back to where we started. 

 

Its also interesting how I have heard over the years how we can't trust what the IHSAA is telling us about proposals and such, yet all of a sudden we are going to trust that this IHSWCA team event won't be thrown back in our faces?  Hmmm....

[tskin]

Well the IHSAA has successfully done two things here.  They have gotten rid of a portion of the state series they didn't like and they have also done away with any chance for wrestling to be classed.  They saw that most coaches wanted the team portion classed and thought the individual tourney should not be.  They heard time and time again that wrestling is a different animal due to the team portion of our state tourney.  So what did they do they axed the part of the tournament that supported our argument. 

 

With the team series gone the majority of talk for classing wrestling will begin to die down.

 

On a side note i would love to see the IHSAA version of the survey that Tonte got to see!!!

 

Stay Classy IHSAA

[MattM]

I'd love to see a survey on the amount of time the Principals and AD's attended wrestling athletic functions or made it a point to talk to their wrestling coaches (not the coaches approaching them) about this matter before voting in the IHSAA survey.  Not asking to much to stop into a home meet or two, stop at the start or end of a practice, or just show up at sectionals (or state if someone makes it) to support your team.  While some principals and AD are with congratulating for their wrestling involvement,  I would say many have made little effort to support or even understand the sport.  Yet, they get a large voice in the decision and IHSAA seems to devalue the coaches portion.

[AJ]

Maybe we can look at  the changes being made to the DI NCAA National Duals.... 

 

And if the IHSAA is willing to support the IHSWCA Team State tournament, then maybe they will make some sort of compromise and allow teams to participate in this without it costing them an official weigh-in.

 

I agree with Joe on the issue that we have trusted IHSAA before, and then they used actions against us that they were actually ok with before.

 

It is no secret that I am opposed to class wrestling and even though I enjoy the team series I am not a fan of how it is currently ran.  I love the idea of the wrestling community being able to create their own team series, even though still weary of the IHSAA, but I am also weary of only a select few making the decisions and having their own personal opinions dictate decision making.

 

And heck, we can just tweak the Traicoff s little bit and we pretty much have all the state powers anyway.

[tskin]

As I like the idea of the IHSWCA running a team tourney.  If it is only going to include a small portion of the state I wouldn't really be that big of a fan of it although it would be better than nothing.  I know it would be almost impossible to do but I would love to see something set up that would include every team in the state.

 

Side note as a coach I wonder how this will effect how some coaches will approach coaching there teams.  I wonder if you will see a push to focus more on the studs and not worry about the lesser talent on the teams.  I know I will stay plugging along like I always have.

[indyt]

Hey AJ, whats up buddy.  you know how I feel about team state.  Why are you opposed to it?  I can not understand the reasoning.  Give me something.  I am listening.  By the way, I was thinking tweak the Belmont super duals and you have the Team State not Traicoff.  Had to put a plug in for our schedule.  Sorry AJ:)

[AJ]

Hey AJ, whats up buddy.  you know how I feel about team state.  Why are you opposed to it?  I can not understand the reasoning.  Give me something.  I am listening.  

I am not a fan of how they do it now.  Dont like the way it starts based on individual tournament scoring, and dont like Wednesday wrestling during individual tournament and the way they do finals the week after the individual tournament.  I am not opposed to team state, just its current format.  I would love to see a team series that is very similar to NCAA, where it is an invite of the states top teams.  I wouldnt be against having 2 divisions for the team series either.  I am open to many ideas about how to make this a special event for Indiana wrestling.  I also do not see a problem with crowning a Team Dual State Champion and an Individual Tournament Team State Champion.  Keep the events seperate so each can be highlighted and promoted.

 

 

 

By the way, I was thinking tweak the Belmont super duals and you have the Team State not Traicoff.  Had to put a plug in for our schedule.  Sorry AJ:)

I agree with that as well... Bellmont Super Duals was ridiculous this year!!!!  

[tspray1]

Parents and fans are going to have to take on this battle and take it head on.  In my opinion these people have to get a lawsuit against the IHSAA. The whole system is a good ole boy club.  The board was going to do whatever Bobby Cox told them to do. Remember a few years back when a few people were trying to start a new assoc.?  The IHSAA has to be taken to task here by people who have deep pockets.  They don't recognize number #1 the coaches and I will go as far to say they don't recognize the sport of wrestling.  Make them take notice!

 

Tim

[Coach Willmann]

If we must go to a coaches trophy for our team tournament, I would vote that we would go to a format similar to Ohio, in which you look at the performances of the previous years returners on your team. 

 

I would vote for the top 4 large schools and the top 4 small schools advance from each semi-state to the next years IHSWCA state tournament.  That way there is a chance for each regional to be represented at the state tournament, and regionals who have two great teams could both advance.

 

I would award points in this fashion.  2 points for returning regional qualifiers, 4 points for returning semi-state qualifiers, and 2 points for returning state qualifiers.  The reason semi-state is weighted more is because I believe it is the level of the tournament that shows most teams strengths.  If you look at this years teams from the Merrillville Semi-State, Penn and Crown Point both had 14 wrestlers advance.  These were the cream of the crop for the tournament.  I would say this is a fair system and similar to the point structure of Ohio.

 

The tournament would be held the week before sectionals, so we would move our state tournament back one week.  It could be held at two sites, such as Franklin and Center Grove.  1 match held Friday night and the other three held on Saturday.

 

If this were in place next year this is how the Merrillville Semi-State would be represented at the tournament.

 

Large School

[table][tr][td]School Regionals x2 SS x4 State x2 Total

Crown Point 20 40 10 70

Merrillville 20 28 6 54

Lowell 20 24 4 48

Penn 14 28 6 48

Lake Central 16 24 4 44

Mishawaka 18 20 4 42

Hobart 12 20 2 34

New Prairie 16 12 2 30

Chesterton 12 12 4 28

Munster 10 16 2 28

Culver Academies 12 12 2 26

McCutcheon 10 16 0 26

Griffith 8 16 0 24

Valparaiso 16 8 0 24

Warsaw 14 8 2 24

South Bend Clay 10 8 4 22

Logansport 14 4 0 18

Twin Lakes 8 8 2 18

Portage 12 4 0 16

South Bend Adams 6 8 2 16

Wawasee 16 0 0 16

Michigan City 6 8 0 14

South Bend Riley 6 8 0 14

South Bend Washington 6 8 0 14

Kankakee Valley 8 4 0 12

LaPorte 8 4 0 12

Plymouth 8 4 0 12

East Chicago Central 10 0 0 10

Gary Wallace 10 0 0 10

Hammond Morton 6 4 0 10

Harrison (WL) 10 0 0 10

Lafayette Jefferson 4 4 2 10

Hammond Gavit 6 0 0 6

South Bend St. Joseph's 2 4 0 6

Hammond Clark 4 0 0 4

West Lafayette 4 0 0 4

Highland 2 0 0 2

[/table]

 

 

 

 

Small School

[table][tr][td]School Regionals x2 SS x4 State x2 Total

Delphi 14 24 2 40

Hanover Central 14 12 4 30

Benton Central 10 16 0 26

West Central 12 8 0 20

Culver Community 10 8 0 18

Glenn 10 8 0 18

Rensselaer Central 10 8 0 18

Bremen 6 8 2 16

Knox 8 8 0 16

Seeger 8 8 0 16

Caston 8 4 0 12

South Newton 6 4 0 10

Calumet 4 4 0 8

Cass 2 4 0 6

Gary West Side 6 0 0 6

Hammond 6 0 0 6

Lake Station Edison 6 0 0 6

North White 6 0 0 6

Tippecanoe Valley 6 0 0 6

Winamac 6 0 0 6

Andrean 4 0 0 4

North Newton 4 0 0 4

Pioneer 4 0 0 4

Boone Grove 2 0 0 2

Carroll 2 0 0 2

Hebron 2 0 0 2

Lafayette Central Catholic 2 0 0 2

Mishawaka Marian 2 0 0 2

North Judson 2 0 0 2

Rochester 2 0 0 2

Attica 0 0 0 0

Frontier 0 0 0 0

Gary Roosevelt 0 0 0 0

Hammond Bishop Noll 0 0 0 0

LaVille 0 0 0 0

River Forest 0 0 0 0

Triton 0 0 0 0

Whiting 0 0 0 0

[/table]

 

[1Team1Goal]

If you want to make it worthwhile for the most schools I say we must go with a three class event. A two class system doesn't split thing up enough to motivate enough small schools to buy into weekend invite event.

[AJ]

If we must go to a coaches trophy for our team tournament, I would vote that we would go to a format similar to Ohio, in which you look at the performances of the previous years returners on your team. 

 

I would vote for the top 4 large schools and the top 4 small schools advance from each semi-state to the next years IHSWCA state tournament.  That way there is a chance for each regional to be represented at the state tournament, and regionals who have two great teams could both advance.

 

I would award points in this fashion.  2 points for returning regional qualifiers, 4 points for returning semi-state qualifiers, and 2 points for returning state qualifiers.  The reason semi-state is weighted more is because I believe it is the level of the tournament that shows most teams strengths.  If you look at this years teams from the Merrillville Semi-State, Penn and Crown Point both had 14 wrestlers advance.  These were the cream of the crop for the tournament.  I would say this is a fair system and similar to the point structure of Ohio.

 

The tournament would be held the week before sectionals, so we would move our state tournament back one week.  It could be held at two sites, such as Franklin and Center Grove.  1 match held Friday night and the other three held on Saturday.

 

If this were in place next year this is how the Merrillville Semi-State would be represented at the tournament.

 

 

Very interesting.  I do have a question though.  Wouldnt this format hinder teams who are very deep and never really rebuild.  A team that may graduate a few placers, but then have first year varsity wrestlers who are just as good as the state placers they replaced.  And is there anyway to include top freshman, like Boston this year, into the formula.  Maybe have a few wildcard spots or something?  But i think this is a good idea and some very forward thinking.

[Coach Willmann]

I thought about your question AJ.  I'm not sure how that could be factored in.  I don't think it could be.

 

There are really three options to do this tournament, and the format I chose to represent was the best overall.

 

The first option was to have everyone in the tournament and wrestle it out.  This really isn't a possibility though.  Since we can't go after the season (and who would want to be wrestling until March 20) the only two other times we could do it is during the season (which there is no way we could fit two weeks of a team state in during the year, plus there isn't any way the IHSAA is going to grant releases to every single school during the season to go over their points), or during the state tournament series (which the IHSAA would never let happen.)

 

The second option was to have a group of people just select the tournament.  While I would trust the people that were put in charge of this, it would become similar to the BCS where if you were a bubble team and didn't get selected, all we would hear about is how unfair that system was.  So I nixed that idea.

 

I finally came up with the third option which puts a premium on returning talent.  The only flaw in this system would be the year that you have 9 or 10 seniors on your team.  I still feel that it is the lesser of all evils as you earn your way into the tournament by returning talent.

 

It obviously could be tweeked and changed.  Ohio only looks at the equivalent of our semi state tournament for their series.  I didn't feel that was fair in Indiana as we do not have class wrestling for individuals.  It could really hinder the smaller schools if that was the only level we looked at.