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Roach weighed in.....


Coach77

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At 152 for team state this weekend:

http://m.nwitimes.com/mobile/article_f119b3d6-b3a3-57df-b6c7-30afbfe7721e.html

 

Now I know it's a rule and of course they did the right thing by enforcing it here, but thinking about it from this standpoint doesn't that kind of take away from the stratagy game that should be played in a team format?  I mean in other team sports you can see kids move around from one spot to the next if they have the ability too why not wrestling?  Just a thought even though I think that meet was really decided at the 135 pound weight class i still think that if there is a team tourny in the future they really need to look at that rule since the two are really two different series and in my mind should be treated as such.

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They are actually the same if you think about it or at least start at the same time and then branch off, the Sectional Champion fo the Team portion is determined by the Individual Sectional.  Now if they completely seperated the Team and Individual, I would agree that they are seperate tournaments.  Kudos to Vlink for manning up and taking it on the chin for the mistake.

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I do agree they start at the same spot, but I still think that in the long run they are different after the sectional since you are competing for a team rather then yourself.  I think that in that sense there is a lot more in team strategy and the fact that in the case of Crown Point over the weekend they thought the best chance that they had was to be able to bump Roach up from 152 to 160 in that particular meet.  I think that by certifying a kid to two weight classes for the team tourny can put a team at a disadvantage in certain spots, hence Saturdays meet.  I just think that it is something to look at if there is a future for the team tourny. 

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Why is it fair for every team South of Bloomington to have to go through MD to advance to team state?  Castle and Reitz  and Jeffersonville and Memorial would have had teams worthy of team state without being in MDs regional.

 

 

Because there are about as many schools south of Bloomington as there are in 2-3 counties in NW indiana.

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Karl the point is not per capita.  The point is that the same team that beat everyones tails for 10 or 12 years or whatever it was always eliminated the teams in the same region.  Had these teams been anywhere else in the state, there would have been more advancing. 

 

You know what I mean Hungus.  If Md was in the REgion or next door to Conseco fieldhouse during their reign of dominance, none of those schools in those regions would have sniffed team state like none of the other good schools around here did.  That would be considered unfair, but so what is the point.

 

I guess i don't know what you mean.  Are you saying geography is an unfair way of setting up the state tournament?

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That article sounded like complaining to me even though he said he wasn't complaining.  There is always a runner up and life ain't fair.  

 

While I agree it would be nice to seed the event I do think CP ended up where they were suppose to on that day.  Even with the Roach mess up their is a good chance they still lost to MD.  MD then lost to LN.  LN then lost to PM.  So basically on the day it could be argued that CP was the 4th best team on the day behind at least 1st Perry, 2nd Lawrence North, and 3rd Mater Dei.  That doesn't even account for a talented Penn on the other side of the bracket that gave PM a very close match.  While CP had a great team this year they just were not able to put enough together to win the team title on Saturday.  On the other side of things Lawrence North was able to put everything together and exceed most people expectation and beat MD to make the finals.

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Get over it Vlink... sometimes you get the luck of the draw, sometimes you don't. Its the way the IHSAA tourney works at all levels. Is it fair that Mishawaka and Penn are in the same sectional when other teams who are not as good as either of those two teams make it to state because their road is easier? Nope, it isn't, but it is how it is.

 

Maybe instead of worrying about where you finishes at team state, you should take some time to learn the rules.

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While I agree it would be nice to seed the event I do think CP ended up where they were suppose to on that day.  Even with the Roach mess up their is a good chance they still lost to MD.  MD then lost to LN.  LN then lost to PM.  So basically on the day it could be argued that CP was the 4th best team on the day behind at least 1st Perry, 2nd Lawrence North, and 3rd Mater Dei.  That doesn't even account for a talented Penn on the other side of the bracket that gave PM a very close match.  While CP had a great team this year they just were not able to put enough together to win the team title on Saturday.  On the other side of things Lawrence North was able to put everything together and exceed most people expectation and beat MD to make the finals.

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Roach has not lost in 2 years in indiana wrestling sims has several losses this year and last and roach beat sims last year. I  do think if the match did go we would be talking about a different team state champ but rules are rules and cp should learn them.

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I read the article and it didn't make much sense.  It is a winner take all and that is what PM did.    Its pretty much the same with all sports.  The team that may finish runner up isn't always the second best team in the state in any sport but they still get the medal.  WOW.

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While I don't think he has any room to complain in this case, since he screwed up by not knowing the rules, I do agree that it would make more sense to put the North teams on one side of the bracket, and the South teams on the other half.  I would have had it as CP vs Delphi, Penn vs Bellmont, PM vs LN, and EMD vs Roncalli.  Don't we do that in every other team sport?

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I don't understand why the kid couldn't wrestle up if he weighed in at 152. I understand the rule that you can't wrestle if you didn't certify, but I feel like this is to prevent coaches from making their kids loose a lot of weight.  I understand there is a risk of injury in wrestling kids that are bigger, but I don't think Roach would have been at too much of a disadvantage if he wrestled 160 after weighing 152. I remember weighing in at 190 once so I could wrestle a 250 pound heavyweight for a dual (obviously not in the state tournament) and I was fine  :P.

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All of Sims' losses in Indiana are injury defaults to Welch and the Heritage Hills  state placer.  Roach beat Sims 7-3 last year at 145.  He'd be giving up 8 pounds to Sims this year.  Probably makes him an underdog.

 

Coach Vlink's complaint is that it doesn't make sense to award four medals for placing if the event isn't seeded. 

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Roach has not lost in 2 years in indiana wrestling sims has several losses this year and last and roach beat sims last year. I  do think if the match did go we would be talking about a different team state champ but rules are rules and CP should learn them.

 

I have no doubt Roach could beat Sims at 160, but by how much is up for guessing.  The issue is Roach wasn't allowed to move up to that weight class via the rules.  As many have pointed out if Roach wrestles 145 or 152 the team score would have mostly likely played out almost exactly the same based on matchups.  So, by that rational CP doesn't beat MD,  MD lost to LN, who lost to PM.  Making a good case for CP not being one of the top two or maybe even top three teams in the state on that day.  So, Coach Vlink's argument in that respect doesn't hold much water.  While CP may have been one of the best teams all year during the season they were just not able to put it together Saturday.

 

 

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I'd bet on Sims +8 lbs.

 

With a seeded team state things might have been different.  Crown Point would make the semis based on seeds.  Say CP got Delphi first round while LN got MD (another bad first round pairing).  Assuming LN can beat a fresh MD (doubtful), could they recover and then beat an untested CP next?  Penn is hard to gauge.  They seemed to match up with Perry real well to keep it close but I'm not at all sure they're better than LN, CP or MD.

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People that say team state should be seeded only say that because they think it makes them sound smart.

 

1.) It is not going to happen.

 

2.) There is no way to accomplish it logistically.

 

3.) Every sport in Indiana is the exact same way, stop the complaining.

 

Did you hear the coaches from Bellmont or Penn complaining about their draw? I doubt Lance Ellis was upset. I haven't found any complaining from Schaefer about it.

 

When you are the #1 team in the state, seeding should not matter.

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I agree it would be extremely difficult to seed. What rankings do you use indianamat's, the coaches or do you get all top 8 coaches together to seed themselves. That would be a very interesting seeding meeting. PM, MD & CP all could of made a case to be seeded first prior to the tournament. Blind draw is the best I think second would be geographical.

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What about treating team state, if it even exists next year, the same way as the NCAA individual tourney. In addition to the regional qualifiers have wild cards based on rankings. Let Reitz, Castle, Mishawaka, New Castle, Yorktown, or any other of the contenders have a shot. Who's to say the finals might not be Castle vs MD or Mishawaka vs Penn. I guess that's assuming we care about more than just #1. My bad.

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What about treating team state, if it even exists next year, the same way as the NCAA individual tourney. In addition to the regional qualifiers have wild cards based on rankings. Let Reitz, Castle, Mishawaka, New Castle, Yorktown, or any other of the contenders have a shot. Who's to say the finals might not be Castle vs MD or Mishawaka vs Penn. I guess that's assuming we care about more than just #1. My bad.

 

Castle, New Castle, and Yorktown did have their shot  - they lost in the Team Regionals!

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1. I do not know all rules that the Ihsaa has for wrestling, but was over hearing talks in the crowd that CP could have had a DQ for the 160 match due to the coach sending the wrestler on the mat to wrestle 152 and then pulling him to wrestle 160. I was told that once you check in to wrestle at the table you wrestle or you don't, you can not check in to wrestle 2 different weights.

 

2. I think Coach V put the blame on himself to pasify the parents and his fans, but someone on his coaching staff should of known the rules even if he was confused about them. He sounds like he is making excuses to the media and playing the WHAT IF game.

 

3. Who was the man the came out of the stands in a CP tee shirt and NO FLOOR PASS?

 

4. Congratulations to the CP Team on an impressive year and for very exciting match against MD.

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FYI my intent on this thread was to look at the rules about bumping weight classes in the team trny vs. the individual trny.  My thoughts were these are two different types of trnys and in some case coaches use different strategies and by handcuffing them to certifying to two weight classes kind of holds them to only a few things they can do.  I can see the point about losing weight, but if they gain the required amount to bump up one weight class they should be able to do so.  That is just my thought.

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1. I do not know all rules that the Ihsaa has for wrestling, but was over hearing talks in the crowd that CP could have had a DQ for the 160 match due to the coach sending the wrestler on the mat to wrestle 152 and then pulling him to wrestle 160. I was told that once you check in to wrestle at the table you wrestle or you don't, you can not check in to wrestle 2 different weights.

 

  The coin toss at the beginning of the match determines which wrestler is required to check in first and which wrestler has choice at the end of the 1st period.  And once the wrestlers have reported in the "PROPER SEQUENCE" they can not be pulled back. 

 

  So if at 135 it is greens choice and a wrestler checks in,  then red checks in.  they have met proper sequence and neither wrestler can be pulled back with out forfeiting. 

    Now lets assume it is Greens choice and red checks in first,  then green,  red can be pulled back and replaced with another wrestler because proper sequence has not taken place. 

  Hope this helps.

 

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